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Proteus (NOT), Neptune, and Triton on 211013 at 0101Z

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#1 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 05:24 AM

The object is not Proteus. Thanks for the help. - Vince

 

Ok. Here is what I think happened. My Neptune subs were pretty dim. I believe that AutoStakkert lost track of several dim subs and put Neptune in the wrong place. To correct for this I raise levels a bit in PIPP and then stacked those subs. My "Proteus" disappeared. Apologies to all.

 

nep.jpg

 

Proteus, Neptune, and Triton on 211013 at 0101Z. This is my first capture magnitude 19.9 Proteus. Average seeing and transparency. 1,000 subs captured in 10 minutes. 750 stacked.  Heavy stretch to bring out Proteus. Celestron Nexstar Evolution 9.25, Celestron 2x barlow, ZWO ASI385 camera, ZWO UV/IR Cut Filter, CPWI for telescope control, and SharpCap for image capture. Image processed in AutoStakkert and Photoshop. Image enlarged 2x with Topaz Gigapixel AI. I use Celestron StarSense for initial alignment (really works well for me) and the Celestron Electronic Focus Motor (eliminates scope shake when focusing.) All of this is attached to an old Dell laptop. The laptop allows me to run the scope over WiFi from my home office.

 

211013 0101Z Proteus Neptune Triton-standard-scale-2_00x gp.jpg


Edited by lainev, 14 October 2021 - 06:57 PM.

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#2 KpS

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 05:45 AM

Great! A new frontier of the possible. Thanks for posting and inspiration.


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#3 happylimpet

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 07:21 AM

I must say I'm skeptical that youve recorded proteus at mag 20. Even using low noise DSO techniques, getting to mag 20 in 7.5mins would be impressive, and the image here is clearly highly oversampled, which makes it a whole lot harder. Can you do a rough check that proteus is showing as ~300 times fainter than triton (mag 13.5 and 19.7) above background?

 

Would be great to see results without any of the AI software too - its use is universally shunned in the planetary imaging community.

 

I do hope I'm wrong though!


Edited by happylimpet, 14 October 2021 - 07:21 AM.

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#4 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 07:48 AM

I must say I'm skeptical that youve recorded proteus at mag 20. Even using low noise DSO techniques, getting to mag 20 in 7.5mins would be impressive, and the image here is clearly highly oversampled, which makes it a whole lot harder. Can you do a rough check that proteus is showing as ~300 times fainter than triton (mag 13.5 and 19.7) above background?

 

Would be great to see results without any of the AI software too - its use is universally shunned in the planetary imaging community.

 

I do hope I'm wrong though!

How do I check brightness?



#5 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 08:04 AM

I must say I'm skeptical that youve recorded proteus at mag 20. Even using low noise DSO techniques, getting to mag 20 in 7.5mins would be impressive, and the image here is clearly highly oversampled, which makes it a whole lot harder. Can you do a rough check that proteus is showing as ~300 times fainter than triton (mag 13.5 and 19.7) above background?

 

Would be great to see results without any of the AI software too - its use is universally shunned in the planetary imaging community.

 

I do hope I'm wrong though!

I used TGp AI for Facebook resolution purposes. Here is the image straight out of AS and cropped in Gimp.

 

2021-10-13-0101_8.png



#6 Borodog

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 08:11 AM

I stretched that and see no evidence of Proteus in it.


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#7 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 08:24 AM

I stretched that and see no evidence of Proteus in it.

Several stretches.

 

nep stretch.png



#8 Borodog

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 08:46 AM

Ok; you must be stretching a different image at a higher bit depth than the jpeg you posted.


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#9 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 08:54 AM

Ok; you must be stretching a different image at a higher bit depth than the jpeg you posted.

Yes. I stretched the png in post #5. Here it is again.

 

post-281318-0-42402500-1634216623.png



#10 Borodog

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:35 AM

Cloudy Nights must be reducing it to 8 bit then, because when I stretch that png (not jpeg; my mistake) I get this:

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • stretch.png

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#11 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:41 AM

Cloudy Nights must be reducing it to 8 bit then, because when I stretch that png (not jpeg; my mistake) I get this:

Did you stretch it twice? Also, do not convert to 8 bit. Here is my result after 2 stretches.

 

nep stretch.png



#12 Borodog

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 10:23 AM

I did not convert it to 8 bit. Cloudy Nights appears to be. Download the image you linked and try stretching that and you will see what I mean.


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#13 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 10:36 AM

I did not convert it to 8 bit. Cloudy Nights appears to be. Download the image you linked and try stretching that and you will see what I mean.

Click my image. A pop up screen will appear with the image. Click Save. Another screen will appear. Right-click that post-346195-0-76058200-1634222115.png image and save.

 

It works for me.

 

What editor are you using to stretch?


Edited by lainev, 14 October 2021 - 10:39 AM.


#14 Borodog

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:40 AM

I see what's going on; I've been using Copy Image instead of Save Image As and pasting it into Astra Image. Apparently the Copy Image only copies an 8 bit version. Good to know.


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#15 KpS

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 02:19 PM

In post #2, my first impression won, but the doubts raised by happylimpet in post #3 are serious. The real Proteus is much weaker against Triton than would be the case with the image. In addition, the position in the image does not match the position reported by the Horizons. Still, I think it makes sense to try to capture Proteus.


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#16 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 02:39 PM

In post #2, my first impression won, but the doubts raised by happylimpet in post #3 are serious. The real Proteus is much weaker against Triton than would be the case with the image. In addition, the position in the image does not match the position reported by the Horizons. Still, I think it makes sense to try to capture Proteus.

From SkySafari 6 Pro

IMG_3055.jpg



#17 Tulloch

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 04:46 PM

I've only got the Plus version of Sky Safari (so it doesn't show me the minor moons), but I have found it is not always accurate for the dimmer moons (like Phoebe around Saturn). However, the best place I've found to get accurate positions of the smaller moons is the "Planet Viewers" tool on the Planetary Data System website.

https://pds-rings.seti.org/tools/

 

Using this tool for Neptune and plugging in your date/time details of 211013 at 0101Z I got this plot.

 

viewer3_nep_46907.jpg

 

Pasting your first image over the top and rotating/magnifying to match Neptune and Triton, I don't believe the spot you captured is Proteus. There's certainly something there, not sure what it is though. Of course, I may have got this investigation wrong, there may be other things at play here, you should do the measurements yourself with your own data.

 

Neptune and Proteus layers.png

 

Hope this helps,

 

Andrew


Edited by Tulloch, 14 October 2021 - 04:54 PM.

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#18 Dennis_Oz

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 05:13 PM

I love these challenges of the fainter objects of our solar system.smile.gif

 

I was out chasing Nereid (mag 18.7) on 5th Oct from Brisbane between approx. 11:40:00 UTC to 14:00:00 UTC as was exposing subs at 30 secs and 60 secs with an ASI 294 MM pro, Tak Mewlon 210 and Tak x0.8 Reducer.

 

I recorded stars down to mag 19.9, although the trail of Nereid at mag 18.7 is a little fainter due to its orbital motion sprinkling photons along its path rather than into a fixed location.

 

I used Starry Night Pro Plus 8 to locate Neptune, Triton and Proteus and turned on the orbits of theses moons.

 

In this attached image, I up-sampled my image x2 in PS CC and then overlaid the SNP8 screen grab which just shows the orbit of Triton as the orbit of Proteus is too small to show clearly at this scale.

 

Needless to say, Proteus is totally swamped by the glare of Neptune in my 30s and 60 sec exposures.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Nereid-30s-60-s-Combined_DBE-Crop-3600-Rot-180-ST4-Layers-Crop-1600-B-Text.jpg
  • Neptune-Proteus-overlay.jpg

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#19 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 05:49 PM

I've only got the Plus version of Sky Safari (so it doesn't show me the minor moons), but I have found it is not always accurate for the dimmer moons (like Phoebe around Saturn). However, the best place I've found to get accurate positions of the smaller moons is the "Planet Viewers" tool on the Planetary Data System website.

https://pds-rings.seti.org/tools/

 

Using this tool for Neptune and plugging in your date/time details of 211013 at 0101Z I got this plot.

 

attachicon.gifviewer3_nep_46907.jpg

 

Pasting your first image over the top and rotating/magnifying to match Neptune and Triton, I don't believe the spot you captured is Proteus. There's certainly something there, not sure what it is though. Of course, I may have got this investigation wrong, there may be other things at play here, you should do the measurements yourself with your own data.

 

attachicon.gifNeptune and Proteus layers.png

 

Hope this helps,

 

Andrew

You are correct! Thank you. Now, what was it. I examined all of my individual frames and did not find any anomalies (wind bumped scope causing double Neptunes etc.) There were no comets, stars, or satellites in that area. I do not have any internal reflections. I was using a dew shield that would have prevented any stray light entering the front objective. Here is my comparison. Thanks.

Untitled-2.jpg


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#20 lainev

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 06:58 PM

Ok. Here is what I think happened. My Neptune subs were pretty dim. I believe that AutoStakkert lost track of several dim subs and put Neptune in the wrong place. To correct for this I raise levels a bit in PIPP and then stacked those subs. My "Proteus" disappeared. Apologies to all.

 

nep.jpg


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#21 Dennis_Oz

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 10:16 PM

Ok. Here is what I think happened. My Neptune subs were pretty dim. I believe that AutoStakkert lost track of several dim subs and put Neptune in the wrong place. To correct for this I raise levels a bit in PIPP and then stacked those subs. My "Proteus" disappeared. Apologies to all.

 

attachicon.gifnep.jpg

Good follow up work.waytogo.gif

 

Cheers

 

Dennis
 



#22 Foc

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 10:18 PM

Better luck next time.  I also rely on https://pds-rings.seti.org/tools/ for minor moons but I have never tested it on objects this obscure.  Look forward to seeing more successful unusual images from you.



#23 happylimpet

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Posted 15 October 2021 - 02:38 AM

Ok. Here is what I think happened. My Neptune subs were pretty dim. I believe that AutoStakkert lost track of several dim subs and put Neptune in the wrong place. To correct for this I raise levels a bit in PIPP and then stacked those subs. My "Proteus" disappeared. Apologies to all.

 

attachicon.gifnep.jpg

Hey no worries, and sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. That kind of thing can happen. The other red flags were that the PSF or 'shape' of the object was different to that of Triton.

 

I also suspected a hot pixel, which can dance around over a great many images and create this sort of false detection. You can see similar effects in you image above. I recommend using darks for this sort of thing. You only need a few to greatly improve the result. I always use darks for Neptune and Uranus.

 

However, I had sort of ruled Proteus out as being impossible, but maybe it isnt. It's much brighter relative to Neptune than Amalthea is to Jupiter, for example. Though of course much closer.


Edited by happylimpet, 15 October 2021 - 02:40 AM.

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