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Not so good Jupiter lol

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#1 TeamHawkins

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:26 PM

10-20-21 I'd love some help from you guys on this. I think this may be rotation I'm seeing here? I have Winjupos but have no clue how to use it. And there aren't any vid tutorials on it at least I haven't found them. Maybe the gain was too high? I had it set at 256. I used the ASI224mc. Brightness at 25 Was doing about 30-45 sec AVI's. If someone has some good Sharpcap settings or Firecapture with this camera by all means! bow.gif smile.gif  Oh I was using a 10" Meade with a 2.5 Barlow. Seeing was 3/5 and the Moon was up and bright.

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Edited by TeamHawkins, 22 October 2021 - 04:27 PM.

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#2 Borodog

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:34 PM

Was this an integration of derotated images using WinJUPOS? If so you may have north and south reversed; the correct way will derotate but the wrong way will double the rotation speed.

 

If not, check your focus and collimation. That dark spot, probably a shadow of a moon, looks vertically smeared, which is not the direction of rotation, and makes me suspect your collimation.



#3 Ittaku

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:39 PM

Field and planetary rotation are basically almost completely fixed when stacking Jupiter up to 3 minutes' duration with Autostakkert. The moon is totally irrelevant for planetary imaging. In terms of quality of planetary image you need seeing, collimation, and focus 1000x more than everything else. If the seeing was as good as you say then it comes down to collimation and focus. Capture 3 minute videos of Jupiter, grab SERs instead of AVIs to store extra data, don't worry about Winjupos at this stage. High gain is not a problem if you stack enough frames, and brightness is largely irrelevant for Jupiter.


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#4 TeamHawkins

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:41 PM

Was this an integration of derotated images using WinJUPOS? If so you may have north and south reversed; the correct way will derotate but the wrong way will double the rotation speed.

 

If not, check your focus and collimation. That dark spot, probably a shadow of a moon, looks vertically smeared, which is not the direction of rotation, and makes me suspect your collimation.

Definitely not Winjupos. I have no idea how to use that software. I checked collimation before I started. It wasn't 100% but it was pretty darn good from the eye. I can try to maybe dial it in more next time out. 



#5 TeamHawkins

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:42 PM

Field and planetary rotation are basically almost completely fixed when stacking Jupiter up to 3 minutes' duration with Autostakkert. The moon is totally irrelevant for planetary imaging. In terms of quality of planetary image you need seeing, collimation, and focus 1000x more than everything else. If the seeing was as good as you say then it comes down to collimation and focus. Capture 3 minute videos of Jupiter, grab SERs instead of AVIs to store extra data, don't worry about Winjupos at this stage. High gain is not a problem if you stack enough frames, and brightness is largely irrelevant for Jupiter.

So change the save output in Sharpcap to .SER? Am I getting this correct? 



#6 Borodog

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:42 PM

If it was close that's not your main problem. What does a single frame from the video look like?



#7 Ittaku

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:44 PM

So change the save output in Sharpcap to .SER? Am I getting this correct? 

Yes, but that would not be a problem in this setting; I was giving you lots of general advice. I think focus and collimation are your primary problems.
 



#8 Borodog

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:45 PM

Also, post the capture .txt file for the capture, please.



#9 ant-man

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 04:48 PM

Hi! I did a quick sharpening on Affinity Photo and it looks a bit better... Take note that I am using your 35kb imageScreen Shot 2021-10-22 at 4.45.27 PM.jpg .


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#10 Kokatha man

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 05:00 PM

Don't worry about ser files, avi's are fine! If the image you posted is a single one from your <"30-45 sec AVI's"> then there are some things wrong with your captures.

 

As said, Jupiter can be captured for at least 3 minutes. (probably significantly more with most f/l's. (focal lengths used)

 

Very likely seeing was poor & collimation were out as suggested...you also have what is either a moon or its shadow displaying an arcing "plume" for want of a better description - this is a tad confusing as to its origin.

 

Posting the capture file & listing the steps you applied to the stacked image, including what you employed in AS!3 as far as settings etc would help narrow problems down.

 

Ant-man, enlarging the image & applying more sharpening is not really helping the situation & is in fact making the image worse regardless of what image you used...I appreciate that you're trying to help but I say this as general advice to you as well, without any negative intents! :)


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#11 bunyon

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 05:12 PM

Looks out of focus to me. 


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#12 Borodog

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 05:12 PM

People only recommend ser files because Autostakkert seems more prone to incorrect debayering with AVIs.* But if you aren't seeing any color problems, AVIs are fine.

 

 

 

* Although Autostakkert has recently started mis-debayering my videos from my ASI183MC such that I get blue Jupiters, so who knows.


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#13 dcaponeii

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 05:49 PM

Definitely not Winjupos. I have no idea how to use that software. I checked collimation before I started. It wasn't 100% but it was pretty darn good from the eye. I can try to maybe dial it in more next time out. 

HOW are you checking the collimation??  If you using defocused star donut you could be VERY far from good collimation.


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#14 TeamHawkins

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 05:51 PM

HOW are you checking the collimation??  If you using defocused star donut you could be VERY far from good collimation.

Other than expensive collimation tools a defocused star is usually the way to go. You have some other way? 


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#15 dcaponeii

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 05:53 PM

Metaguide or use the Airy Disk at focus.  Donut's are not adequate for planetary.  This has been something I've learned the hard way during the past two years on CN.  Focus too of course but focus won't get you there is collimation is bad.


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#16 TeamHawkins

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 05:56 PM

Don't worry about ser files, avi's are fine! If the image you posted is a single one from your <"30-45 sec AVI's"> then there are some things wrong with your captures.

 

As said, Jupiter can be captured for at least 3 minutes. (probably significantly more with most f/l's. (focal lengths used)

 

Very likely seeing was poor & collimation were out as suggested...you also have what is either a moon or its shadow displaying an arcing "plume" for want of a better description - this is a tad confusing as to its origin.

 

Posting the capture file & listing the steps you applied to the stacked image, including what you employed in AS!3 as far as settings etc would help narrow problems down.

 

Ant-man, enlarging the image & applying more sharpening is not really helping the situation & is in fact making the image worse regardless of what image you used...I appreciate that you're trying to help but I say this as general advice to you as well, without any negative intents! smile.gif

The one I posted was a stack from Autostakkert and then slight tampering in Registax 6. I took 30 sec videos, about 5 of them then joined them in PIPP. As far as individual files, I think I deleted them off my laptop, I'd have to check. I usually take them off my laptop and process on my stronger desktop. My Saturn turned out bad too. To focus, I used Venus and a bahtinov mask. I wonder if the focus wasn't accurate since Venus was lower in the horizon and Jupiter and Saturn was near the Meridian? 



#17 TeamHawkins

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 06:02 PM

Metaguide or use the Airy Disk at focus.  Donut's are not adequate for planetary.  This has been something I've learned the hard way during the past two years on CN.  Focus too of course but focus won't get you there is collimation is bad.

Ahhhh collimate on the Planets themselves? Gotcha!



#18 Kokatha man

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 08:16 PM

A quick couple of extra comments: using a defocused star is the best way to collimate usually but Metaguide assists those that are not confident doing it! But by "a defocused star" I refer to one that is taken out of focus by no more than a dozen or so diffraction rings like this example: I need a couple of posts to include all the images because of CN file-size limits even though they are in my link...but in progression the first image below & then in their order the 2 in the next post represent pretty good collimation for a colour camera - images in this thread: https://www.cloudyni...e-images-added/  

 

DeFocusStarFeed.gif

 

 

You certainly don't collimate on the planet itself although some people use a moon of Jupiter, but imo much better to use a nearby star. Btw our website - see siggy below - has a bit more on defocused star collimation in the tute section.

 

I tell folks to not use a bahtinov mask but to focus by eye, much better but it does take a bit of practise...much like getting the planet on the camera chip with a standard finder initially.

 

If those <"30 sec videos, about 5 of them then joined them in PIPP"> were taken in rapid succession that should be ok...but if there were significant intervals between each capture then it isn't so good if you simply join them together & process them.

 

Seeing is always the most important factor & unfortunately many people encounter poor seeing which is very frustrating...decent seeing makes collimating much easier & also focusing as well.

 

Your image could simply be an attempt in poor seeing that meant collimating was near impossible - which of course meant focusing was also similarly difficult...although that "shadow plume" is still a bit perplexing.

 

Venus would not be a good target to focus on, much better to use the specific planet & more so if it is higher in the sky: Saturn needs you to at least be able to discern the ring system pretty clearly for starters...from there (if you have decent seeing & made reasonable collimation) good focus relies upon being able to see the Cassini Division with some clarity - the blacker the C.D. appears, the closer you are to best focus!


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#19 Kokatha man

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 08:20 PM

From the above image you then go closer to focus for the next 2 star appearances...if you get to this standard you can be pretty certain of good images in the conditions if you then focus as well as you can! (see link images)

 

Btw, if we use a colour camera we simply collimate with the "L" filter which is the ir/uv cut filter, a necessity with a colour camera. Some folks prefer the "R" filter or even a red longpass (ir 610nm) to help them collimate on a star with a colour camera. wink.gif

 

SmallDeFocusStarFeed.gif

 

CloseFocusStarFeed.gif


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#20 dcaponeii

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Posted 22 October 2021 - 08:56 PM

Ahhhh collimate on the Planets themselves? Gotcha!

Not on planet on a star

#21 dcaponeii

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Posted 23 October 2021 - 11:19 AM

From the above image you then go closer to focus for the next 2 star appearances...if you get to this standard you can be pretty certain of good images in the conditions if you then focus as well as you can! (see link images)

Btw, if we use a colour camera we simply collimate with the "L" filter which is the ir/uv cut filter, a necessity with a colour camera. Some folks prefer the "R" filter or even a red longpass (ir 610nm) to help them collimate on a star with a colour camera. wink.gif

SmallDeFocusStarFeed.gif

CloseFocusStarFeed.gif


I was having some trouble with collimation last night and didn’t want to swap out optics. I took your advice above and moved over to a nearby star. Got just off focus and could see I was off center. Made a quick tweak and it really helped. Easier than Metaguide.
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#22 Kokatha man

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Posted 23 October 2021 - 07:56 PM

...just a point - some folks might look at the images I've posted & think the Poisson Point is off-centre, but in less than good to very good seeing it will often appear to "wander" quite alarmingly as you study it!

 

Good seeing makes everything much easier & simpler of course. :)

 

But you can soon learn to appreciate whether it is actually off-centre or wandering around that central position indicating it is actually centred...like focusing & any other aspects of imaging etc, with a bit of training/experience the eye/brain can accommodate many things that might appear well-nigh impossible at first! ;)



#23 dcaponeii

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Posted 24 October 2021 - 06:54 AM

...just a point - some folks might look at the images I've posted & think the Poisson Point is off-centre, but in less than good to very good seeing it will often appear to "wander" quite alarmingly as you study it!

Good seeing makes everything much easier & simpler of course. :)

But you can soon learn to appreciate whether it is actually off-centre or wandering around that central position indicating it is actually centred...like focusing & any other aspects of imaging etc, with a bit of training/experience the eye/brain can accommodate many things that might appear well-nigh impossible at first! ;)


That is an interesting point (pun intended) as I’m sure some of my collimation challenges have come from trying to make sure the Poisson Point was centered.

#24 TeamHawkins

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Posted 27 October 2021 - 03:23 PM

Appreciate all the replies. Thanks a lot guys! It appears the collimation point was actually the issue. I went and used two stars as collimation references. Fomalhaut and Deneb Algedi and I was off collimation still. Considering I spent almost 45 minutes on it a week before. (I had just received my secondary mirror back from being re-coated). So I dialed it in much better this time and this image looks better. At least to me it does. What do you guys think? Also the seeing was below average but I wanted a test run. Tonight seeing is supposed to be really good here in AZ. 

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#25 Kiwi Paul

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Posted 27 October 2021 - 04:41 PM

You will really know how good your collimation is when you see one of Jupiters moons.
Paul


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