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25x100 vs. 20/28x110

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#1 paulsky

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 01:54 PM

Hi, 

I like the binocular visión, I have a 15x70 binocular, well, it's a good binocular., but I like more  power, slight, no much more, and more aperture, more light, and with my 60 summers.... I've few options, no too much money... 

My questions:

 -  How much difference there is between one 25x100 and one 20/28x110 in a normal night? Whorth the different price and weight...?...? 

Thanks in advance. 

 

PD. I had seeing the Léonard Comet in a telescope and one 80mm binocular and I love the feeling with the binocular. Much more!!!much more!! 


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#2 drt3d

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 02:04 PM

I have an APM 70mm/90 and a good set of eyepieces. I can change eyepieces and change the magnification. I really love this setup. I think you will like it too.

 

But the main reason I am writing it to comment on your last comment, about viewing the Comet with a binocular and seeing "much more!!"

 

Just yesterday I was looking at the moon. Yes, the moon. This "boring" object that is available to us to view many days a month for our entire life. I spent at least 30 minutes, maybe an hour, enjoying the sight (clouds were coming in and out so there was some change).

I tried closing one eye (blocking it, not closing it) and I just could not do it. I kept thinking: I don't understand how people use only one eye for astronomy. With two eyes you see so much more!!  Even when looking at the moon!!

 

That's why I am here. I need to use two eyes. I love binocular vision. The few times I used a telescope, it was with a binoviewer. So, yes, more, much more!!


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#3 sevenofnine

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 04:11 PM

Things to consider. The 100mm and up binoculars are much bigger than 15x70 and require a much bigger mount. You don't say exactly which two binoculars you are considering but generally 25x100 are straight through type. The 20/28 x 110 binoculars where you can change eyepieces usually have 45 or 90 degree angled eyepieces. This type is much better for astronomy. Otherwise, you will need a very expensive parallelogram mount and a surveyors tripod. If the budget is tight, I suggest considering Oberwerk's 20x80 LW. They can be used on a lighter weight and less expensive mount. https://oberwerk.com...ght-binoculars/. Good luck!  waytogo.gif


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#4 Rich V.

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 04:54 PM

I think the 20x/28x110s in question are straight-through binos like the 25x100s.  Fixed eyepieces and originally offered in 20x and 28x. I think

 

https://www.apm-tele...-28x110-ms-bino

 

https://www.apm-tele...-ms-bino-25x100

 

They started out as KUO BA8s sold by a number of vendors, and now they're being made in the lighter MS platform with the BA8s being discontinued.  The original BA8 110s weighted a whopping 16#; now the MS version is listed as being only 10.2#, so if that's correct, they're not far out of line from 100mms.  IMO, the original 16# units couldn't justify the much greater weight and mounting requirements necessary over the 100mms. 

 

You'd have to decide if the 12% greater mag and 10% larger aperture makes a big enough difference to justify the greater size and additional 2 pounds of weight.  The newer MS version of the 110s hopefully utilize the longer ER, flatter field MS eyepieces, which would be a solid plus.

 

Rich


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#5 paulsky

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 06:02 PM

And the new versión MS of the 110 is in the market? 

I "ve seen the MS 20x100 and the 25x100 models, I imagine best than the standard 25x100.., but no the MS 110...

Thanks. 

Paul


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#6 Cali

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 06:21 PM

 If the budget is tight, I suggest considering Oberwerk's 20x80 LW. They can be used on a lighter weight and less expensive mount. https://oberwerk.com...ght-binoculars/. Good luck!  waytogo.gif

If considering the 20x80LW the recommended mount is the Oberwerk Adjustable Tripod Mount. It adds one pound to the weight of the instrument. 


Edited by Cali, 14 January 2022 - 06:32 PM.

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#7 Rich V.

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 06:43 PM

And the new versión MS of the 110 is in the market? 

I "ve seen the MS 20x100 and the 25x100 models, I imagine best than the standard 25x100.., but no the MS 110...

Thanks. 

Paul

I gave links to APM's listings of non-ED MS binos in 110mm and 100mm.  The 100mm comes in the ED version as well.  Next availability in Feb and Mar.

 

APM still lists the older, heavier TS 20x and 28x110s BA8s in stock.

 

Rich


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#8 sevenofnine

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 06:50 PM

Rich,...I think you are right about all three binoculars under consideration being straight through. If they are then Paulsky needs to consider the cost of an adequate p-mount & surveyors tripod into the equation. It's the only way that they are comfortable to use IMO. Good luck with your decisions! waytogo.gif


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#9 Rich V.

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 07:04 PM

That was the problem with those heavy 110s; with UA gone from the p-gram market, the mounting options for such a heavy straight bino are limited.  A UA Millennium p-gram would have been perfect.  Larry had a wide range of capacities covered in his designs.   frown.gif

 

http://universalastr...umPictures.html

 

http://universalastr...ntOverview.html


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#10 paulsky

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 05:34 AM

Hello,
Thanks for all your advice and opinions.
It is clear that the weight of the old ones, and even the current 110mm, requires a good mount such as Monster Paragon Plus or similar, with a parallelogram... all this results in more weight, volume... and price... All this would be equal in price precisely to an APM 100mm achromatic at 45°\90° more or less.......
I am not sure that a 110mm binocular is much superior to a 100mm ???
On the other hand, I see that this line of achromatic MS binoculars... although more expensive than the Generic 25x100 type Skymaster, Zhumell, Oberwerk... and similar... may be superior to these and still manageable... do you know if these MS have eyepieces that are not very large... it is that my ocular separation is small and I have problems with wide eyepieces...
very thankful
Paul.


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#11 Cali

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 08:24 AM

Hello,
Thanks for all your advice and opinions.

very thankful
Paul.

Look, why not buy a nice small telescope and a binoviewer?

 

- Cal


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#12 paulsky

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 09:44 AM

I have a SCT and one bino Viewer, for moon and planets, a fantastic instrumentos.. But for DSO... Ummmm..

Also I have a cute refractor, one 60mm ... But with the bino Viewer.. Too Much obscure for my taste!!!

Thanks



#13 sevenofnine

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 12:15 PM

Paulsky...I think you are coming to the same conclusion that I did. Very large binoculars are wonderful instruments. Easy to look through, impressive images and immersive views but very expensive and a bit too much for me moneyeyes.gif


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#14 Rich V.

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 12:41 PM

On the other hand, I see that this line of achromatic MS binoculars... although more expensive than the Generic 25x100 type Skymaster, Zhumell, Oberwerk... and similar... may be superior to these and still manageable... do you know if these MS have eyepieces that are not very large... it is that my ocular separation is small and I have problems with wide eyepieces...
 

MS eyepieces are pretty large; about 51mm at their widest diameter, about the same as the BA8 eyepieces.


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#15 Mark9473

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 01:49 PM

It is clear that the weight of the old ones, and even the current 110mm, requires a good mount such as Monster Paragon Plus or similar, with a parallelogram... all this results in more weight, volume... and price... All this would be equal in price precisely to an APM 100mm achromatic at 45°\90° more or less.......


In that case I would definitely go for the angled BT.
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#16 Beg

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Posted 16 January 2022 - 11:42 PM

The 110's are quite the beast. But the mounting will cost more. 

 

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But they bring out the dust lanes and I still have my 20X110's

 


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#17 paulsky

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Posted 17 January 2022 - 10:52 AM

Mendigar, wow...

What tripod and head is? Height?

How good is the 20x110 in the Sky for DSO? Well, comparatively to one 25x100...

Thanks in advance.

Paul



#18 ArsMachina

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Posted 17 January 2022 - 11:54 AM

I was also after such a straight through monster some years ago.

Sure I wanted the biggest aperture available, but finally decided for the APM 25x100 ED which I enjoyed a lot.

 

Disadvantages of the 110mm glasses were:

 

- Not available with ED objectives.

- Eyepieces with narrower field than the 100mm variants

- Not available in Magnesium so way heavier than the 100mm variants.

 

Jochen


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#19 ihf

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Posted 17 January 2022 - 12:21 PM

Disadvantages of the 110mm glasses were:

 

- Not available with ED objectives.

- Eyepieces with narrower field than the 100mm variants

- Not available in Magnesium so way heavier than the 100mm variants.

Before MS they were also not full aperture. Maybe that has been fixed?

It looks like the MS 28x110 eyepieces are 64 degree by simple formula.

 

Reducing the weight is great! Now the 110 are not much heavier than the 100.

 

Still the non-ED 28x110 are quite a bit longer than the MS 20/25x100 ED. I assume using slower objectives is to control the color. Now the question is if going ED, a possibility Markus has mentioned recently, would result in physically shorter 110 binos (also for easier mounting). But I don't think this was the case with the 100: ED and non-ED were the same size/weight.

 

I think with ED glass and shorter tubes I would be interested in an MS 28x110 ED. But they would still require larger eye relief.

 

Sigh. I think it will require a few more rounds of upgrading the 110 until they will be as "easy" to handle as the MS 20x100 ED.



#20 Beg

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Posted 17 January 2022 - 01:35 PM

Mendigar, wow...

What tripod and head is? Height?

How good is the 20x110 in the Sky for DSO? Well, comparatively to one 25x100...

Thanks in advance.

Paul

 

 

I mount mine on my 161B and the Nitrotech N12 head. Don't  think I would use anything less. Have not used them for a long time. Need to get those out again. Got that model over the 28x model mainly for the 20mm eye relief. So very comfortable to use. Low power milky way sweepers for sure. Bright image and kind of low contrast if I remember correctly. Believe I paid $650 from Garrett Optical 15 years ago or so before Oberwerk bought them out. They mainly sit on the shelf since my BT purchases.



#21 Baobas3360

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Posted 18 January 2022 - 06:25 AM

I think, in most cases, optically 28x110 should be better than 25x100. I did not study in detail. Let the owners of these devices correct me. Very interesting topic!



#22 ihf

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Posted 18 January 2022 - 12:39 PM

Comparing an f/3.7 ED against an f/5-ish achro could be "interesting". One problem is that the new APM website just doesn't have reliable data anymore. I keep being curious about the eyepieces.

https://www.apm-tele...-28x110-ms-bino

"Interpupillary distance 15.5 mm"

 

I assume that is the eye relief. If the comfortable eyepieces from the f3.7 MS 20x100 would have been used on the f/5 MS 110 the magnifcation would have indeed been about 28x and the eye relief should have been 20mm. But seemingly it is not. Does anybody have good specs maybe from Aliexpress? I think the ones below look like the old/non MS model? They certainly are heavy at 7.2kg, but they show 18mm eye relief for 28x110.

 

https://www.aliexpre...1721210689.html

https://www.aliexpre...2994280533.html

https://www.aliexpre...1203204333.html



#23 Rich V.

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Posted 18 January 2022 - 12:50 PM

The original 28x110 BA8s used the shorter ER eyepieces along with the 15x70 and 22x85.  The 20x110, 10.5x70 and 15x85 used the narrower AFOV longer ER eyepieces.  I think the focal lengths were 19mm and 16mm.  I'd expect the shorter focal length MS binos use the 18mm and 15mm UF eyepieces.

 

Rich




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