184 replies to this topic

[deSitter]

This is a fascinating thread. You guys have really done your homework. But how are the optics on these old 60ish x 800s? I just wonder because by the time that it got to the mid-60 and the Towa Tasco 60x800 that I briefly had, they really sucked. Of course the metal legs and styrofoam that co-mingled by then didn’t help.

(These really old ones by they way are quite lovely, with the exception of the black wrinkle finish on the main tube and optical parts of some of them. I can’t say that I’m a fan of that.)

Terra, I got a 60/800mm Penncrest (beautiful teal tube, "teal"-er than the Sears 6344) on Ebay for $22! I just wanted the wooden legs It was filthy! But when I got it cleaned up, a wonderful telescope emerged. It has absolutely excellent optics and mechanics, with accurate slo-mo in both altitude and azimuth. I sold it - ah me! - to my friends who display it proudly in their living room at their lake house. It is a wonderful performer. Towa, yes.

 

-drl

[deSitter]

Hey I found a pic! Amazing! Penncrest - great scope. Drew and Val love it

 

The focuser on this scope is a work of art - extremely sturdy with a LONG drawtube, which allows the use of a Porro prism and/or a zoom/erecting eyepiece. Is it absolutely perfectly collimated, even with the drawtube fully extended.

 

-drl

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Edited by deSitter, 20 January 2022 - 04:36 PM.

[Kasmos]

I was going through my files last night and found some interesting stuff and things that might roughly help with dates.

 

This image was labeled Monolux Compass 68 but I don't know if that's truley the date.

It's also interesting that the scope illustrated is a Asahi Pentax with it's unique mount.

I have one or two Asahi made Monolux in my files (which I'll post later), but I've never seen a Monolux on that mount.

It could have been just be artistic license. I also think I have a similar black and white image filed somewhere.

Anyway seeing that it said Compass it triggered me to look for the image below.

This Compass telescope is from the 1960 Wholesale Photo Supply Co. 

It looks more like a Asahi made scope than a Towa but it has a feature or two unlike the Asahi Jupiters you usually see.

The side saddles for the yoke are shaped differently and the finder doesn't appear to be aluminum in color at the eyepiece.

It might have the stepped taper like one, but it's very hard to tell.

The focuser looks more like an Asahi (maybe no pull tube) and it looks like it has a bare aluminum pinion block.

This and another ad I have may mean there was once a more Asahi-like clone made early on or the very early Asahis were different.

Also note that it came with a Black 'Crackle' or White Enamel finish at a higher cost.

 

Then I searched for something about Compass Instrument & Optical Co.

I've found this info before but completely forgot about it. The date of first use might be the most telling.

I believe it means they were already using the name (selling items branded Monolux),

slightly before the application and about a year before it was registered.

I also remember someone once saw the Circle R on a Monolux and thought it was the makers mark!

 

Compass Instrument & Optical might have sold telescopes before 1954 and if so, probably just as a Compass

That said, the first labeled Monolux is likely to be a '54 model

 

BTW, I haven't counted, but looking at my files, it looks like Monolux may have sold more of these 60/800mm telescopes than anybody else. SPI is probably the next close in number

Edited by Kasmos, 20 January 2022 - 04:48 PM.

[deSitter]

I was going through my files last night and found some interesting stuff and things that might roughly help with dates.

 

Monolux-Compass-68.jpg

This image was labeled Monolux Compass 68 but I don't know if that's truley the date.

It's also interesting that the scope illustrated is a Asahi Pentax with it's unique mount.

I have one or two Asahi made Monolux in my files (which I'll post later), but I've never seen a Monolux on that mount.

It could have been just be artistic license. I also think I have a similar black and white image filed somewhere.

Anyway seeing that it said Compass it triggered me to look for the image below.

Compass-1960.jpg

This Compass telescope is from the 1960 Wholesale Photo Supply Co. 

It looks more like a Asahi made scope than a Towa but it has a feature or two unlike the Asahi Jupiters you usually see.

The side saddles for the yoke are shaped differently and the finder doesn't appear to be aluminum in color at the eyepiece.

It might have the stepped taper like one, but it's very hard to tell.

The focuser looks more like an Asahi (maybe no pull tube) and it looks like it has a bare aluminum pinion block.

This and another ad I have may mean there was once a more Asahi-like clone made early on or the very early Asahis were different.

Also note that it came with a Black 'Crackle' or White Enamel finish at a higher cost.

 

Then I searched for something about Compass Instrument & Optical Co.

Monolux Trademark.jpg

I've found this info before but completely forgot about it. The date of first use might be the most telling.

I believe it means they were already using the name (selling items branded Monolux),

slightly before the application and about a year before it was registered.

I also remember someone once saw the Circle R on a Monolux and thought it was the makers mark!

 

Compass Instrument & Optical might have sold telescopes before 1954 and if so, probably just as a Compass

That said, the first labeled Monolux is likely to be a '54 model

 

BTW, I haven't counted, but looking at my files, it looks like Monolux may have sold more of these 60/800mm telescopes than anybody else.

SPI is probably close in number

I have the blue flyer! Came with my early-60s vintage 4380! RAO optics, fantastic scope optically and mechanically.

 

-drl

[aoirotukiko]

小島修介　(Kojima Shusuke) retired from 五藤光学研究所(Goto)in the spring of 1951 and was engaged in repairing astronomical telescopes and promoting astronomy. 小島修介 got a job at 旭光学工業　(Asahi Optical) in December 1952 and is working on the production of a 6-inch refracting equatorial mount.  小島修介 retired from 旭光学工業 and established アストロ光学株式会社(Astro Optical Co., Ltd.;1954.11-1958.2) in November 1954. The company officers at the time of establishment include 谷田貝幸雄Yanidakai Yukio (later established 谷光学研究所Tani ) and 堀口恵助 Horiguchi　Keisuke (later established 堀口光学Horiguchi Optical).

I don't know how Asahi Kogyo's 60mm altazimuth mount was developed. However, the testimony of  小島修介(Kojima Shusuke) shows that it had already been exported in 1951. The telescope manufacturers mentioned by 小島修介(Kojima Shusuke) were 旭光学工業(Asahi Optical Co., Ltd.), 五藤光学研究所(Goto) , 日本光学工業(Nippon Kogaku Kogyo), and 日本精光研究所(Nippon Seiko) .

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[aoirotukiko]

EXPORT STANDARD

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[Kasmos]

Here's a couple of old catalog photos featuring the same scope (Compass) as in my last post.

 

This one is from 1955. IIRC, United was a popular binocular brand.

The Black Crackle finish is offered as an option again.

 

Another from Central Camera Co.1959.

 

It's closer in design to a Asahi than a Towa. 

The objective cell, the focuser, the mount and it's pivot bolt/axle looks like an Asahi.

(Note you can see the rack teeth on the bottom of the rack tube and Towas are cut into the tube)

 

Differences from a normal Asahi:

The side saddle is is a octagon instead of a rounded triange.

The finder rides on top instead of the side and looks all black.

Again it's hard to tell if the finder's EP has a stepped tapered.

 

I don't think it's a early Towa since it's really doesn't have that much in common.

So what is it? Right now I lean towards a very early Asahi or a unknown maker's early copy.

Whatever it is you would think one would turn up somewhere on Cloudy Nights or on one of the sales sites. 

Edited by Kasmos, 22 January 2022 - 04:49 PM.

[Kasmos]

Thanks to Robert (Clamchip) I became aware that Mayflower once offered a Towa AT2.

 

What I didn't realize, it was the 814 model before the well known HOC, APL, and SYW versions.

and the simpler version (below) minus slow motion controls was the 813

These are from the 1962 fold out brochure.

The specifications state them both as being 60/700mm, so it makes me wonder if the 60/800 Towa

had been replaced, but the photos had yet to be updated.

This seemed to happen quite often with many telescopes importers.

Also, note that the 814 has the small black finder and the 813 has the later white 5x24 finder.

 

Here's a few other Mayflowers

This example belongs to CharlieB .

From the style of the engraving and seeing how it's marked 62mm it's very likely older than Robert's

 

This single photo of a 814 was found on a online auction. Note the chrome finder and what appears to be a label type badge.

Chrome finders were seen on some SPIs but they appeared to be on much older models than this example.

This is could be another example of how some features don't appear to follow a straight time line,

or possibly it was replaced with a finder from a Unitron 114.

 

Another 814 from an auction with no other photos posted.

It still has, sliding legs, the slim cell, wood tray, and what I would call the last style of box layout.

It's turned down but it appears there's a trace of a badge label showing.

Edited by Kasmos, 23 January 2022 - 03:16 AM.

[jragsdale]

I just found this super old FB marketplace ad for an SPI I-6. Looks like older than the other 2 (or 3) I-6's posted above. This one is serial 9295. Chrome finder, older tapered center focus knobs, metal hinged case. Should definitely place this one in the early 1956 category if the chrome finders for sure came before the black wrinkle finders. Yoke altitude motions vs tension spring knob; older model or upgrade feature?

 

This debunks the theory that the chrome finders were just replaced parts with Unitron finders. Seems like too many of these scopes have them for it to be a coincidence. 

 

Ad: https://www.facebook...307119502858895

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Edited by jragsdale, 23 January 2022 - 04:55 PM.

[Kasmos]

Nice example.

I knew some of the SPIs came with a chrome finder since I have photos of two examples.

Just haven't got around to posting them.

This is attached inside the lid of one of them.

I think you kind of misunderstood me as I was speculating on the Mayflower since it looked to be newer

Edited by Kasmos, 23 January 2022 - 05:34 PM.

[Kasmos]

Thinking about how they are Towas, the other day I wondered why you never see one branded as a Tasco or a Sears.

I thought maybe they never offered them, then I found this old image in my files that I forgot about.

 

This Tasco is in the same 1960 catalog that featured the first Compass I posted.

So why don't they ever turn up?

 

 By 1960 you would have thought they would be advertised as a 60mm and come with 4 eyepieces.

 

[jragsdale]

Thinking about how they are Towas, the other day I wondered why you never see one branded as a Tasco or a Sears.

I thought maybe they never offered them, then I found this old image in my files that I forgot about.

 

Tasco-21-AT2-60.jpg

This Tasco is in the same 1960 catalog that featured the first Compass I posted.

So why don't they ever turn up?

 

 By 1960 you would have thought they would be advertised as a 60mm and come with 4 eyepieces.

Wow! Good find! And here I thought Towa didn't make old Tascos! Wish there were a pic online of it!

 

EDIT: Found one! Here: https://www.cloudyni...escope-history/

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Edited by jragsdale, 23 January 2022 - 11:44 PM.

[Kasmos]

Wow! Good find! And here I thought Towa didn't make old Tascos! Wish there were a pic online of it!

 

EDIT: Found one! Here: https://www.cloudyni...escope-history/

Good detective work! I was about to comment on those knobs and then I went to the link to find I already did.   I forgot all about that one, but if you noticed in that thread that in post#3 Photoracer was speculating that is was made by NS or Carton. I never understood why so many folks didn't see the connection to Towa just because they didn't have that little Circle T and especially since the focusers have the exact same casting.

Edited by Kasmos, 24 January 2022 - 02:56 AM.

[Kasmos]

Sometime ago I bookmarked all of the threads I could find related to the AT2s and ET1s.

 

Here's a link to Roberts Mayflower with lots of good photos. I find post #21, 22 and a few of the following ones from greju very amusing. I guess some people still didn't want to believe what was right in front of them. These types of scopes kept popping up with questions so threads like those always made me think an indepth thread examining them was necessary.

Edited by Kasmos, 24 January 2022 - 03:49 AM.

[Kasmos]

Let's not forget the ET1

They seemed to be synonymous with Lafayette but like the AT2 often branded by others.

Here's one that leaves no doubt to who the maker was

 

Liink to the same scope with many good photos:

 

https://www.cloudyni...f800/?p=6815157

[Kasmos]

Here's a SPI focuser from a 60/1000mm with a labeled badge and without a Circle T. 

The overall construction of the kit of this particular example is just about a perfect match to my Cresecent so we can put it's age in the same era.

1959-'61.

 

Note that it has a Circle T on the barlow. I have a hunch it stands for Towa since I don't think Tani would label a barlow this way.

BTW, the style of these EPs also match the Crescents.

They have a larger than usual plastic bezel which when removed the inner metal lens holder will fall out of the barrel.

On all of the other similar .965" EPs I've encountered, the inner lens holder is threaded onto the barrel so it stays on when the outer plastic bezel is removed.  

Has anyone else noticed eyepieces like that?

 

[semlin]

I was going through my files last night and found some interesting stuff and things that might roughly help with dates.

 

Monolux-Compass-68.jpg

This image was labeled Monolux Compass 68 but I don't know if that's truley the date.

It's also interesting that the scope illustrated is a Asahi Pentax with it's unique mount.

I have one or two Asahi made Monolux in my files (which I'll post later), but I've never seen a Monolux on that mount.

It could have been just be artistic license. I also think I have a similar black and white image filed somewhere.

Anyway seeing that it said Compass it triggered me to look for the image below.

Compass-1960.jpg

This Compass telescope is from the 1960 Wholesale Photo Supply Co. 

It looks more like a Asahi made scope than a Towa but it has a feature or two unlike the Asahi Jupiters you usually see.

The side saddles for the yoke are shaped differently and the finder doesn't appear to be aluminum in color at the eyepiece.

It might have the stepped taper like one, but it's very hard to tell.

The focuser looks more like an Asahi (maybe no pull tube) and it looks like it has a bare aluminum pinion block.

This and another ad I have may mean there was once a more Asahi-like clone made early on or the very early Asahis were different.

Also note that it came with a Black 'Crackle' or White Enamel finish at a higher cost.

 

Then I searched for something about Compass Instrument & Optical Co.

Monolux Trademark.jpg

I've found this info before but completely forgot about it. The date of first use might be the most telling.

I believe it means they were already using the name (selling items branded Monolux),

slightly before the application and about a year before it was registered.

I also remember someone once saw the Circle R on a Monolux and thought it was the makers mark!

 

Compass Instrument & Optical might have sold telescopes before 1954 and if so, probably just as a Compass

That said, the first labeled Monolux is likely to be a '54 model

 

BTW, I haven't counted, but looking at my files, it looks like Monolux may have sold more of these 60/800mm telescopes than anybody else. SPI is probably the next close in number

 

here is the entire compass catalog with the monolux telescope picture.  

 

compass was a new york city based importer of european instruments before ww2 selling french and german optics.  after ww2 they got into japanese imports.  monolux was their brand for japanese telescopes and microscopes and binolux was for binoculars, although is have seen a binolux binocular microscope.  they also sold compass branded stuff and "cadillac supreme" binoculars which is my favourite brand because it is mainly rebadged kowa binoculars.  if you ever see a cadillac supreme binocular, buy it.

https://miniaturebin...SMAILER.PDF.pdf

[deSitter]

here is the entire compass catalog with the monolux telescope picture.  

 

compass was a new york city based importer of european instruments before ww2 selling french and german optics.  after ww2 they got into japanese imports.  monolux was their brand for japanese telescopes and microscopes and binolux was for binoculars, although is have seen a binolux binocular microscope.  they also sold compass branded stuff and "cadillac supreme" binoculars which is my favourite brand because it is mainly rebadged kowa binoculars.  if you ever see a cadillac supreme binocular, buy it.

https://miniaturebin...SMAILER.PDF.pdf

Beautiful catalog! Wow my 4380 cost $1300 in modern money! You should upload to the classic telescopes wiki here -

 

https://wiki.telesco.../wiki/Main_Page

 

This was a great read! It gave me a sort of shudder to think how expensive these things were in real time. The top of the line "Binolux" microscope with a binocular head and fancy stage and vernier focuser was $3700 in modern money! It gave me a new appreciation of my several classics.

 

-drl

Edited by deSitter, 26 January 2022 - 02:48 PM.

[Terra Nova]

That’s interesting that Binolux was part of Monolux. It makes sense but I never put two and two together in that respect. I do have a pair of Binolux ultra-wide 7x35 binoculars that have an 11° FOV in my bino collection. They are very nice!

[deSitter]

That’s interesting that Binolux was part of Monolux. It makes sense but I never put two and two together in that respect. I do have a pair of Binolux ultra-wide 7x35 binoculars that have an 11° FOV in my bino collection. They are very nice!

I have been wanting such an item since I saw one as a kid They had a monster FOV of like 670 feet at 1000 yds - 70+ degrees. Erfle eyepieces. I am very happy however with my 10 degree Selsi 7x35s which are extremely light weight and have perfect convergence. The edges of the FOV? *not great*

 

-drl

[Terra Nova]

I have been wanting such an item since I saw one as a kid They had a monster FOV of like 670 feet at 1000 yds - 70+ degrees. Erfle eyepieces. I am very happy however with my 10 degree Selsi 7x35s which are extremely light weight and have perfect convergence. The edges of the FOV? *not great*

 

-drl

My Binolux UWA 7x35s are quite light. The views are quite sharp, bright, and well contrasted with stars as pinpoints right to the edge. I enjoy using them in conjunction with my Manon 16x50s. They complement each other quite well.

[Kasmos]

When it comes to the Compass and the United telescopes in posts #78 and #82 my hunch was correct.

They are photos of a very early Asahi Jupiter marketed by those brands.

The Octagon side saddle has always been the biggest dilemma in identifying them since they are different from what we normally see.

 

Below is a page from the 1953 JOPI catalog

Seeing how they are so old, it's no wonder we never see them

Edited by Kasmos, 05 February 2022 - 03:22 AM.

[strdst]

I received this scope as a gift from "NAVE" (Evan Schultz) too many years ago (I miss NAVE). It has terrific optics. Simple, solid mount with no motion controls. Mostly Asahi Pentax tells. Slate blue OTA. For some reason I had thought it a 900mm but this thread got me to pull it out from under and compare to the Asahi Pentax which confirms it's 800mm fl.

 

 

 

 

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[jragsdale]

I received this scope as a gift from "NAVE" (Evan Schultz) too many years ago (I miss NAVE). It has terrific optics. Simple, solid mount with no motion controls. Mostly Asahi Pentax tells. Slate blue OTA. For some reason I had thought it a 900mm but this thread got me to pull it out from under and compare to the Asahi Pentax which confirms it's 800mm fl.

Wow. Nice early Asahi! Oldest Sky Chief I've ever seen.

[Kasmos]

Here's another Ashai made Sky Chief belonging to CN member greju.

The photos were in two separate threads so here they are together

 

 

The style of the engraving and the serial # tells us it's newer

 

It appears that many of the early importers sold Asahis then switched to Towa.

I suppose it's a case of Towa copying them and selling them at a lower price.

 

Speaking of copies how about the color this Orbit 1990 (Towa AT2) belonging to Compressorguy

It looks to be influenced by the color of the Sky Chiefs

 

It has a Selsi style mount and is probably the only known example of an Orbit like it.

 

Here's a link to Compressorguy's thread with lots of detailed photos:

 

https://www.cloudyni...this-afternoon/