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Most Accurate Light Pollution Map/App

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#51 RLK1

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 08:52 PM

Once again,  because of your bias 'blindly' believing they are infallible instruments,  you miss my key points about SQM limitations  - even from your own posted reference papers author in his last sentence of his review.  

 

"They offerl little meaningful spatial resolution in most applications, making them generally unsuitable for monitoring the behavior of light domes near the horizon. Lastly, there are differences among commercially available devices in terms of photometric passbands that complicate comparison of results among different device types."  I've added the bold and underlines so no one misses the points.  

 

 In other words comparing their data to a satellite' broad spatial data - the topic of this OP - is comparing apples to oranges, especially for monitoring change of LP through time.  Thanks for making my point with that paper.  It is unfortunate most amateurs can't afford the other types he goes on to review in the paper.   Clear, dark skies.   Do the best with what you have.   But don't pretend its more than what it is. 

On the contrary, I made sure to include the limitations of the SQM as noted in the article so the reader would have a better understanding of the issue. Of course, most amateurs don't monitor light pollution domes at the horizon and the sqmL model would obviate that anyway since it has a narrow field compared to the standard sqm, either of which is readily available toa potential user.

 

And, of course, the SQM is not going to have the same spatial resolution as an orbiting satellite and I can't imagine someone assuming that it would.

 

That said, there's an analogous situation between the satellites and the sqm since their present predicament is essentially the same. Most satellites monitoring light pollution are functioning just fine but aren't providing desired data. What has changed is the  lighting technologies in the last decade or so with the advent of widespread LED installations in the cities and towns that didn't have as much or any when the satellites were launched. If the LED sources were suddenly shut off, the recorded data would be accurate.  Similarity, if the sqm is utilized under a dark sky environment without LED interference, as reportedly found in bortle 1 and 2 skies, then the data is accurate, too. 

 

Of course, newer satellites are being modified to launch with the capability to monitor the spectral response of LED installations. Various experiments involving detectors, filters, photometers and the like have been conducted to help solve the problem. Likewise, on a lessor and far more simplistic approach, amateurs can experiment with their sqms and filter replacements as noted by unihedron.



#52 Rlakjdlsj

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 09:43 PM

On the contrary, I made sure to include the limitations of the SQM as noted in the article so the reader would have a better understanding of the issue. Of course, most amateurs don't monitor light pollution domes at the horizon and the sqmL model would obviate that anyway since it has a narrow field compared to the standard sqm, either of which is readily available toa potential user.

 

And, of course, the SQM is not going to have the same spatial resolution as an orbiting satellite and I can't imagine someone assuming that it would.

 

That said, there's an analogous situation between the satellites and the sqm since their present predicament is essentially the same. Most satellites monitoring light pollution are functioning just fine but aren't providing desired data. What has changed is the  lighting technologies in the last decade or so with the advent of widespread LED installations in the cities and towns that didn't have as much or any when the satellites were launched. If the LED sources were suddenly shut off, the recorded data would be accurate.  Similarity, if the sqm is utilized under a dark sky environment without LED interference, as reportedly found in bortle 1 and 2 skies, then the data is accurate, too. 

 

Of course, newer satellites are being modified to launch with the capability to monitor the spectral response of LED installations. Various experiments involving detectors, filters, photometers and the like have been conducted to help solve the problem. Likewise, on a lessor and far more simplistic approach, amateurs can experiment with their sqms and filter replacements as noted by unihedron.

I would make a guess that 99% of SQM  readings are not made in Bortel 1 or 2 zones.  The vast majority of users live in brighter LP zones, and will have significant levels of LP high in their sky that vary widely with altitude and azimuth.  My own sky is about half covered by a big city dome, its center  about 30 miles away.  I have seen the edge of the visual 'dome' get higher and higher above the east horizon over nearly 40 yrs. living in the same  'rural' place. My west sky if 'relatively dark' since there are not major sources to the west.  But overall I can only see a faint Milky Way and a rare night all the stars of the little dipper.    I don't need a SQM to tell me that or analyze any satellite data.  The LP satellite map is useful to "monitor' how width of the zones change year to year  and figuring out where and how far  to go if I need to find a darker sky for some reason.  

 

The discussion of the SQM readings in this thread about satellite data maps,  started way back in  post #10.  So I guess not everyone knows its apples to oranges to compare the two.

 

 The 'irony' is,  Unihedron could have easily replaced the UV-IR cutoff filter and eliminate the problem of near UV-Blue blind 'biased' readings years ago.  It will take years if not decades or never for similar changes by the various builders orbiting satellites.  They are likely constrained by the real purpose or mission of the science sensors they orbit. As monitoring LP, is only a 'derivative' product that mostly a few 'amateurs' are interested in to observe faint fuzzies for their lists.  


Edited by Ron359, 31 October 2024 - 11:56 AM.

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#53 RLK1

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Posted 31 October 2024 - 01:47 PM

It'd be interesting and informative if the newly modified satellites could discriminate between the different types of LED installations based upon color temperature. The IDA certified LED street lights, shielded and at 2700k, are less detrimental to the night sky and the spectral flux output is more amenable to filtration with commonly available filters whereas as the colder blue LEDs with colors temps above 3000k are not. 

 

LEDs aren't going away so the question becomes what can be done about it. At least the warmer variants at 2700k and below are better suited for astronomical purposes as my rough graphs show for purposes of illustration:

 

 

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#54 PEterW

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Posted 01 November 2024 - 01:25 PM

The newer satellites (a Chinese university has launched 2) do not have such widely available data (as yet). It’d be great to have a relatively cheap camera system to help us monitor light domes as was pointed out, there was one that the the Adler planetarium developed (GONet), but it doesn’t seem to be available anymore :-(

Peter

#55 Poppienutshell

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Posted 02 March 2025 - 11:19 PM

I'm just gonna come out and say that I'm a noob who doesn't understand 80% of the discussions here but I'm very much interested in getting an answer to OP's question. So... Does anyone have any idea of what is considered the most accurate map/app for predicting light pollution?

I saw mentions of lightpollutionmap followed by extensive technical stuff but no concrete answer.

#56 PEterW

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 02:43 PM

Using Lightpollutionmp.into and selecting one of the yearly VIIRS annual (or trend) overlays for data more recent than the 2016 map. Also an EU funded project has released high res processed colour data from the Chinese satellite, but only covering Europe. https://pmisson.user...dgsat-eu-visual
Remember this only quantifies the light that escapes UPwards and is detected, lights that emit sideways that can spread a long way will not be as well captured. The former can help to show some trends and the latter to detect local point sources of lighting.

Peter

#57 Tony Flanders

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Posted 04 March 2025 - 06:08 AM

I'm just gonna come out and say that I'm a noob who doesn't understand 80% of the discussions here but I'm very much interested in getting an answer to OP's question. So... Does anyone have any idea of what is considered the most accurate map/app for predicting light pollution?

I saw mentions of lightpollutionmap followed by extensive technical stuff but no concrete answer.

Most amateur astronomers who study this topic agree that of all the available maps, David Lorenz's Light Pollution Atlas 2022 most closely approximates the readings that we actually take with our Sky Quality Meters.

 

There is near-universal agreement that lightpollutionmap.info, also informally known as "the light-pollution map" as opposed to Lorenz's "light-pollution atlas" is not a good source. It systematically predicts that locations will be darker than they actually are even on the best nights. Alas, for a variety of reasons, this is the source that's used by far the most often, not only by the lightpollutionmap.info website itself, but also indirectly by many other sources. That's partly because the data is readily available in machine-readable form for other apps and websites to use.

 

It's important to note that the difference is not due to the fact that Lorenz's map uses more recent data -- thought that is true as well. Instead, it's a difference in the parameters used internally inside the software to transform the upwelling light measured by satellites into a forecast of the downward-directed light known as skyglow.

 

It also seems worth mentioning that for many people the only important question is "will site A be darker than site B?" In that case it likely doesn't matter which map you use; in the great majority of cases all the possible sources will yield the same answer. It's only when you're interested in absolute rather than relative levels that the source really matters.

 

And even at its best, a forecast is just a forecast, and bound to be a little wrong in all cases and very wrong in many cases.


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#58 ayadai

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Posted 04 March 2025 - 06:46 AM

This site has 2022 data and a well-designed interface. I'm assuming that it's using the same satellites as others:

 

https://djlorenz.git...erlay/dark.html



#59 Phillip Creed

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 01:01 PM

This site has 2022 data and a well-designed interface. I'm assuming that it's using the same satellites as others:

 

https://djlorenz.git...erlay/dark.html

That site is now updated to 2023 data.

Clear Skies,

Phil


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#60 DaveL

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Posted 03 April 2025 - 12:03 PM

2024 will be done as soon as the 2024 annual composites are completed and posted at this link. I try to check somewhat regularly but I sometimes forget. If someone notices that 2024 is finished, feel free to PM me. Hopefully the group that calculates the annual composites is not impacted by any federal grant terminations.

 

-Dave


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#61 DaveL

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Posted 04 April 2025 - 02:47 PM

That was fast! Looks like the 2024 composites at the above link are done. Now I will get to work. Altas should be updated by end of weekend.


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#62 DaveL

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Posted 04 April 2025 - 06:27 PM

Ok everything is updated to 2024
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#63 mountain monk

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Posted 04 April 2025 - 09:03 PM

Thanks again, Dave.

 

Dark, clear, calm skies.

 

Jack


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#64 mattsafraid

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Posted 10 April 2025 - 06:10 AM

Thanks a lot, Dave! 

 

Btw do you guys have any idea why France shows decreasing light pollution in trending view? 


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#65 George N

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Posted 10 April 2025 - 05:09 PM

Thanks a lot, Dave! 

 

Btw do you guys have any idea why France shows decreasing light pollution in trending view? 

Google Gemini AI says "France has implemented a national light pollution policy with regulations, including curfews for outdoor lighting and limits on light emission, to reduce its impact on the environment, astronomy, and human health. These regulations aim to prevent, limit, and reduce light pollution that disrupts people, wildlife, ecosystems, and the observation of the night sky."

 

DarkSky International web site: "France Adopts National Light Pollution Policy Among Most Progressive In The World" dated 9 Jan 2019 --- link: (https://darksky.org/...ution-law-2018/)

 

Just maybe -- it's actually working!!!!  smirk.gif


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#66 George N

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Posted 10 April 2025 - 05:20 PM

Ok everything is updated to 2024

 

I like it! ----- because it gives the following for my rented camp on Indian Lake NY - Brightness: 21.81 mag/arcsec2  --- almost exactly what I've measured with a Sky Quality Meter (with no Milky Way). It fails to note the 4 feet deep snow and minus 30 F wind chill.......  wink.gif

 

BTW - the "just over the mountain" Wakely Dam NYS primitive campsite is listed as 21.91 - you can stay there for free for something like 5 nights - you get a fire pit, picnic table, probably free firewood, a pit toilet - large open area next to a large completely wilderness lake! Of course, someone could pull in right next to you with a Class A motorhome and show movies on the side of the thing with projection TV all night. The dirt road in/out is only about 4 miles to the village - but very slow going. Nearest groceries, are an hour away, nearest ER is 90+ minutes -- oh, and zero cell phone service.


Edited by George N, 10 April 2025 - 05:29 PM.


#67 DaveL

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Posted 10 April 2025 - 06:58 PM

George, thanks for the information on France. I would’ve assumed it was some LED thing (the VIIRs satellite is less sensitive to blue light), but they are really making strong effort to reduce light pollution. That’s really good to hear, finally some good news.

-Dave

#68 mountain monk

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Posted 11 April 2025 - 02:10 PM

Dave's new map shows my main three observing sites as...

 

21.95 mpsas 35 minutes away on a paved road.

 

21.97 mpsas 50 minutes away, some on a dirt road.

 

21.98 mpsas 1 1/2 hours away, mostly on a dirt road.

 

Alas, here at home it is 20.51 mpsas.

 

I'm pleased as punch! Thanks again, Dave.


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#69 JayinUT

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Posted 17 April 2025 - 05:04 PM

Dave's new map shows the following for my sites.  They basically line up with my SQM and SQM L readings depending on season. 

 

1. Forest Road 006 Top of the world, 1 hour and 30 minutes from home, mostly paved except the last 15 miles are dirt. SQM 21.88. Elevation 6400 feet. 

2. Top View off old Pony Express Rd, 40 minutes from home; SQM 21.6 and at 5200 feet. Paved except last 2 miles are dirt. 

3. Home is 19.4 SQM and 5250 in elevation.

4. Horse Coral Erickson Pass Rd. 1 hour 40 minutes from my home; paved but last 30 miles are nice dirt road that is kept graded.  SQM 21.89. 

5. Simpson Springs South/Dugway Valley; 1 hour 50 minutes from home and SQM is 21.98

6. Cedar Mnt Wilderness West Side: 2 hour from my home, freeway then last 14 miles are dirt.  SQM 21.93

7. Lakeside; I-80 and then paved road, last 2 miles are dirt. SQM is 21.83 and elevation is 4365.  

 

There is more than this that goes into each site though. Too much to get into here. 


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#70 Owlglass

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Posted 29 April 2025 - 12:18 AM

Ok everything is updated to 2024

Hi, I just came across this thread while looking for accurate light pollution data. Thanks for your work Dave, this is much appreciated and very helpful. 

 

I am wondering if it is possible to program different points in time for the trend? I am based in the Himalayas and they have seen in the past few years tremendous increase in use of LED lights, particularly in remote villages. I can judge subjectively, my (unfortunately random) SQM measurements seem to confirm. 

 

Would be great to have a more objective indication on varying trends, eg over the past year or two.

 

Thanks!


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#71 DaveL

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Posted 13 May 2025 - 10:03 PM

Hi, I just came across this thread while looking for accurate light pollution data. Thanks for your work Dave, this is much appreciated and very helpful. 

 

I am wondering if it is possible to program different points in time for the trend? I am based in the Himalayas and they have seen in the past few years tremendous increase in use of LED lights, particularly in remote villages. I can judge subjectively, my (unfortunately random) SQM measurements seem to confirm. 

 

Would be great to have a more objective indication on varying trends, eg over the past year or two.

 

Thanks!

Thanks for the tip, when I have more spare time I will try to incorporate a graph/table of the recent years brightness as a function of year. Is this what you had in mind?

 

Note there is a color coded map of trends (given in mpsas per decade) if you select the box "2013-2024 trend".

 

-Dave



#72 Illinois

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Posted 14 May 2025 - 05:54 AM

Good to have light pollution maps from 2006 to 2024.  I wonder, is that possible create what light pollution maps in 1930’s and 1960’s to see how dark Illinois and Florida is.  My late father told me that he see bright Milky Way and easy to see M31 in town that’s only 30 minutes from St Louis in early 1930’s.  



#73 Tony Flanders

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Posted 15 May 2025 - 04:27 AM

I wonder, is that possible create what light pollution maps in 1930’s and 1960’s to see how dark Illinois and Florida is.


I think you can answer that question yourself. What data would be needed to create such a map, and where would you find it?

#74 Illinois

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Posted 15 May 2025 - 06:07 AM

I think you can answer that question yourself. What data would be needed to create such a map, and where would you find it?

1930 and 1960 ….. how?

 

would like to see how dark like Bortle 2 close to Chicago and image that how dark Florida is before Walt Disney bought large land to building Disney.  



#75 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 15 May 2025 - 09:10 AM

1930 and 1960 ….. how?

 

would like to see how dark like Bortle 2 close to Chicago and image that how dark Florida is before Walt Disney bought large land to building Disney.  

 

I think what Tony is suggesting is that the data does not exist to make a modern light pollution map like the Light Pollution Atlas for 1930s-1960s.  

 

Jon


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