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Most Accurate Light Pollution Map/App

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#51 RLK1

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 08:52 PM

Once again,  because of your bias 'blindly' believing they are infallible instruments,  you miss my key points about SQM limitations  - even from your own posted reference papers author in his last sentence of his review.  

 

"They offerl little meaningful spatial resolution in most applications, making them generally unsuitable for monitoring the behavior of light domes near the horizon. Lastly, there are differences among commercially available devices in terms of photometric passbands that complicate comparison of results among different device types."  I've added the bold and underlines so no one misses the points.  

 

 In other words comparing their data to a satellite' broad spatial data - the topic of this OP - is comparing apples to oranges, especially for monitoring change of LP through time.  Thanks for making my point with that paper.  It is unfortunate most amateurs can't afford the other types he goes on to review in the paper.   Clear, dark skies.   Do the best with what you have.   But don't pretend its more than what it is. 

On the contrary, I made sure to include the limitations of the SQM as noted in the article so the reader would have a better understanding of the issue. Of course, most amateurs don't monitor light pollution domes at the horizon and the sqmL model would obviate that anyway since it has a narrow field compared to the standard sqm, either of which is readily available toa potential user.

 

And, of course, the SQM is not going to have the same spatial resolution as an orbiting satellite and I can't imagine someone assuming that it would.

 

That said, there's an analogous situation between the satellites and the sqm since their present predicament is essentially the same. Most satellites monitoring light pollution are functioning just fine but aren't providing desired data. What has changed is the  lighting technologies in the last decade or so with the advent of widespread LED installations in the cities and towns that didn't have as much or any when the satellites were launched. If the LED sources were suddenly shut off, the recorded data would be accurate.  Similarity, if the sqm is utilized under a dark sky environment without LED interference, as reportedly found in bortle 1 and 2 skies, then the data is accurate, too. 

 

Of course, newer satellites are being modified to launch with the capability to monitor the spectral response of LED installations. Various experiments involving detectors, filters, photometers and the like have been conducted to help solve the problem. Likewise, on a lessor and far more simplistic approach, amateurs can experiment with their sqms and filter replacements as noted by unihedron.



#52 Ron359

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 09:43 PM

On the contrary, I made sure to include the limitations of the SQM as noted in the article so the reader would have a better understanding of the issue. Of course, most amateurs don't monitor light pollution domes at the horizon and the sqmL model would obviate that anyway since it has a narrow field compared to the standard sqm, either of which is readily available toa potential user.

 

And, of course, the SQM is not going to have the same spatial resolution as an orbiting satellite and I can't imagine someone assuming that it would.

 

That said, there's an analogous situation between the satellites and the sqm since their present predicament is essentially the same. Most satellites monitoring light pollution are functioning just fine but aren't providing desired data. What has changed is the  lighting technologies in the last decade or so with the advent of widespread LED installations in the cities and towns that didn't have as much or any when the satellites were launched. If the LED sources were suddenly shut off, the recorded data would be accurate.  Similarity, if the sqm is utilized under a dark sky environment without LED interference, as reportedly found in bortle 1 and 2 skies, then the data is accurate, too. 

 

Of course, newer satellites are being modified to launch with the capability to monitor the spectral response of LED installations. Various experiments involving detectors, filters, photometers and the like have been conducted to help solve the problem. Likewise, on a lessor and far more simplistic approach, amateurs can experiment with their sqms and filter replacements as noted by unihedron.

I would make a guess that 99% of SQM  readings are not made in Bortel 1 or 2 zones.  The vast majority of users live in brighter LP zones, and will have significant levels of LP high in their sky that vary widely with altitude and azimuth.  My own sky is about half covered by a big city dome, its center  about 30 miles away.  I have seen the edge of the visual 'dome' get higher and higher above the east horizon over nearly 40 yrs. living in the same  'rural' place. My west sky if 'relatively dark' since there are not major sources to the west.  But overall I can only see a faint Milky Way and a rare night all the stars of the little dipper.    I don't need a SQM to tell me that or analyze any satellite data.  The LP satellite map is useful to "monitor' how width of the zones change year to year  and figuring out where and how far  to go if I need to find a darker sky for some reason.  

 

The discussion of the SQM readings in this thread about satellite data maps,  started way back in  post #10.  So I guess not everyone knows its apples to oranges to compare the two.

 

 The 'irony' is,  Unihedron could have easily replaced the UV-IR cutoff filter and eliminate the problem of near UV-Blue blind 'biased' readings years ago.  It will take years if not decades or never for similar changes by the various builders orbiting satellites.  They are likely constrained by the real purpose or mission of the science sensors they orbit. As monitoring LP, is only a 'derivative' product that mostly a few 'amateurs' are interested in to observe faint fuzzies for their lists.  


Edited by Ron359, 31 October 2024 - 11:56 AM.

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#53 RLK1

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Posted 31 October 2024 - 01:47 PM

It'd be interesting and informative if the newly modified satellites could discriminate between the different types of LED installations based upon color temperature. The IDA certified LED street lights, shielded and at 2700k, are less detrimental to the night sky and the spectral flux output is more amenable to filtration with commonly available filters whereas as the colder blue LEDs with colors temps above 3000k are not. 

 

LEDs aren't going away so the question becomes what can be done about it. At least the warmer variants at 2700k and below are better suited for astronomical purposes as my rough graphs show for purposes of illustration:

 

 

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#54 PEterW

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Posted 01 November 2024 - 01:25 PM

The newer satellites (a Chinese university has launched 2) do not have such widely available data (as yet). It’d be great to have a relatively cheap camera system to help us monitor light domes as was pointed out, there was one that the the Adler planetarium developed (GONet), but it doesn’t seem to be available anymore :-(

Peter


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