1432 replies to this topic

[OzAndrewJ]

Gday Pete

ZWO presumably doesn't provide any way to do this, so if they don't bundle it, it won't work.

Ahh OK, thats the bit i was missing.

When the mention of "EQMod" came into it, i suspected it might be a more "open" system

so wanted to understand it a bit more, if people came asking questions re Synta mounts.

 

That said,  as noted by others, if they are the only ones who can bundle it,

and it worked before, and it doesnt now, it does seem "odd" :-)

 

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia

[rpineau]

The linux kernel will use the VIP/PID to load a device driver (like most operating systems).

BUT .. you can then use udev rules to do extra things ... including block a device based on some attributes (manufacturer string/tag for example).

Most device showing up as a serial port on linux use a usb to serial adapter and the most common ones are from FTDI.

They have a VID of 0403 (Future Technology Devices International) and then various PID depending on which of their chip is used.

On top of this FTDI allows their user to set a few things in the chip USB descriptor... including a Manufacturer string (know as iManufaturer in most C/C++ descriptor headers).

Pegasus Astro uses almost exclusively FTDI chip in their device and do set the Manufacturer string to "Pegasus Astro"

And that's what can be used to block their device as ZWO seems to be doing.

I did play with udev and it took be 5 minutes to write a rules that blocks all of my Pegasus Astro devices, just to see how easy it is to do and I assume that's exactly what ZWO is doing.

Now to prove that it is indeed what they do, someone that has a ASIAIR can eject the SD card, mount it on a linux box with a sdcard reader (like mount in on /mnt) and run a simple grep to check if there is a udev rule for Pegasus (assuming the ASIAIR sd card was mounted on /mnt) :

cd /mnt/etc/udev
grep -r -i pegasus *

This would show immediately if there is a specific rule to block Pegasus Astro devices (which does on my test machine ).

 

So no need to hard code VID/PID, just write udev rules to do it, much simpler (blocking VIP/PID would need to be done in udev too or directly in the ftdi_sio code for the kernel module and recompile it with the special test in it ... trust me, udev is easier and most probably how they do it).

[Psychlist1972]

The linux kernel will use the VIP/PID to load a device driver (like most operating systems).

BUT .. you can then use udev rules to do extra things ... including block a device based on some attributes (manufacturer string/tag for example).

Most device showing up as a serial port on linux use a usb to serial adapter and the most common ones are from FTDI.

They have a VID of 0403 (Future Technology Devices International) and then various PID depending on which of their chip is used.

On top of this FTDI allows their user to set a few things in the chip USB descriptor... including a Manufacturer string (know as iManufaturer in most C/C++ descriptor headers).

Pegasus Astro uses almost exclusively FTDI chip in their device and do set the Manufacturer string to "Pegasus Astro"

And that's what can be used to block their device as ZWO seems to be doing.

I did play with udev and it took be 5 minutes to write a rules that blocks all of my Pegasus Astro devices, just to see how easy it is to do and I assume that's exactly what ZWO is doing.

Now to prove that it is indeed what they do, someone that has a ASIAIR can eject the SD card, mount it on a linux box with a sdcard reader (like mount in on /mnt) and run a simple grep to check if there is a udev rule for Pegasus (assuming the ASIAIR sd card was mounted on /mnt) :

cd /mnt/etc/udev
grep -r -i pegasus *

This would show immediately if there is a specific rule to block Pegasus Astro devices (which does on my test machine ).

 

So no need to hard code VID/PID, just write udev rules to do it, much simpler (blocking VIP/PID would need to be done in udev too or directly in the ftdi_sio code for the kernel module and recompile it with the special test in it ... trust me, udev is easier and most probably how they do it).

On the Pro with latest app and firmware V2-10.46, there are no anti-pegasus rules.

 

There are no rules updated in the past year.

 

I have no idea how this naming weirdness is happening, but that's not how.

 

Pete

Edited by Psychlist1972, 16 January 2023 - 02:24 AM.

[ex-Bubblehead]

On the Pro with latest app and firmware V2-10.46, there are no anti-pegasus rules.

 

There are no rules updated in the past year.

 

I have no idea how this naming weirdness is happening, but that's not how.

 

Pete

 

   If this was a proper soap opera, it will end up that Pegasus is the supplier to ZWO for AA...or that ZWO is the supplier to Pegasus for the -101!  To quite the great Bobby Boucher..."the search continues!"

 

For my part, this drama won't really impact any choices of mine until the dust settles.  I am betting that, in the end, Heinlen's old quote will prove true (as was mentioned somewhere upthread): "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity."  In other words, those dang AA software developers need to Learn to Code!  I could be wrong, but I don't see ZWO and Pegasus being direct enough competitors for this to be actual shenanigans.  I'm sure some of the grey beards on the board could tell us about how scope companies really used to try to sabotage each other back in the day...

 

I am eagerly awaiting further reports on the mount.  It is on my shortlist of potential retirement presents to myself in the not-too-distant future, just need to see how it ends up doing, both in terms of performance and reliability, when in the hands of consumers.  Also still waiting to see what the introductory price will jump to.  I don't discount the possibility of putting in a last minute order before that price hike takes effect, assuming Pegasus gives us warning.

[Bowmoreman]

And THAT is precisely the route I will be going. Explicitly blocking previously working functionality for a specific - and coincidentally new - competitor is:

1. For previous customers who bought based on claimed LX200 support it is basically breaking what they already paid for. Despicable, and ultimately bad business practice.

 

 

2. For new customers who buy w/o being explicitly told it will NOT work with a competitor, it is actionable false advertising. Leading them to believe LX200 support is there, when it isn’t.

 

Again, because it “broke” for only one - specifically checked for (as noted above) brand, it was intentional. It isn’t a bug unless there was no “brand check”. But, apparently there was. Someone authorized it. The Product Manager had to be in the loop to make a decision of this magnitude (in a properly functioning organization that is).

 

Ultimately, I’m not surprised, Business ethics are very different in certain parts of the world; caveat emptor.

[wykbbb]

And THAT is precisely the route I will be going. Explicitly blocking previously working functionality for a specific - and coincidentally new - competitor is:

1. For previous customers who bought based on claimed LX200 support it is basically breaking what they already paid for. Despicable, and ultimately bad business practice.

 

2. For new customers who buy w/o being explicitly told it will NOT work with a competitor, it is actionable false advertising. Leading them to believe LX200 support is there, when it isn’t.

ZWO never claimed that ASIAir supported NYX-101 using LX200; Pegasus Astro was the one who made  that claim. It was very risky for Pegasus Astro to tell potential customers that their mount was compatible with the ASIAir, when Pegasus Astro knew NYX-101 wasn't on ZWO's list of supported mounts. 

 

Are other mount manufacturers affected by how ASIAir 2.0 handles manufacturer strings? If multiple manufacturers  are affected, then ZWO isn't specifically targeting Pegasus Astro.  

 

Rainbow Astro worked directly with ZWO to get their RST mount working with ASIAir. Pegasus Astro is working with Simulation Curriculum (Sky Sarfari)  to build a dedicated  NYX-101 driver. IMO, Pegasus Astro should have worked with directly with ZWO to build a dedicate NYX-101 driver for ASIAir instead of relying on a Meade driver. It's odd that a $3000 mount is using a driver from a competitor. 

Edited by wykbbb, 16 January 2023 - 10:58 AM.

[Bowmoreman]

ZWO never claimed that ASIAir supported NYX-101 using LX200; Pegasus Astro was the one who made  that claim. It was very risky for Pegasus Astro to tell potential customers that their mount was compatible with the ASIAir, when Pegasus Astro knew NYX-101 wasn't on ZWO's list of supported mounts. 

 

Are other mount manufacturers affected by how ASIAir 2.0 handles manufacturer strings? If multiple manufacturers  are affected, then ZWO isn't specifically targeting Pegasus Astro.  

 

Rainbow Astro worked directly with ZWO to get their RST mount working with ASIAir. Pegasus Astro is working with Simulation Curriculum (Sky Sarfari)  to build a dedicated  NYX-101 driver. IMO, Pegasus Astro should have worked with directly with ZWO to build a dedicate NYX-101 driver for ASIAir instead of relying on a Meade driver. It's odd that a $3000 mount is using a driver from a competitor. 

They claimed LX200. Which is a (very) long-standing standard. It worked, until they intentionally changed firmware to specifically exclude ONE manufacturer UNDER LX200, shortly after said manufacture introduced a “competing” product. Sorry, but if those are the facts, then they are guilty of extremely poorly thought out business ethics/practices. If they excluded ever MORE (specifically), while still/continuing to claim LX200 compatibility, then they start to approach fraudulent business practices.

If the facts are they put one/more manufactures names in an exclusion filter, they are guilty. In fact, if there is any owner for whom it WAS working, until they changed it intentionally to NOT work, they would have an extremely good case to bring to their local state’s attorney general/consumer protection department.

At a minimum, they need to make PREVIOUS owners whole, by removing the restriction for them, forever, or refund their money or otherwise make them whole. And, if they wish to do this going forward, they must be explicit about either fully supporting LX200, or only supporting certain (named!) products using LX200. They cannot have it both ways.

Either way, it’s shady business… IF, and I say again, IF, they did this by putting “Pegasus Astro” (or some such specifically) in an exclusion filter. 

IF they did not, then Pegasus’ description of the circumstances is wrong (and shame on them if so, which I highly doubt) and it *might* be a “bug”. In which case, shame on Pegasus AND ZWO *must* immediately correct the bug, or announce explicitly what they will and will NOT support, so that buyers are not treated fraudulently

But from the facts as presented thus far, it’s not a bug, it was intentional. And it is unethical business practice, plain and simple, no matter how much one might be/not be a fan of ZWO.

[mjanzou]

Good news indeed, hope it holds up in the upcoming 2.1 asiair app release... DOH!

[magsterone]

Which would you recommend with this mount, ASIAIR plus or the StellarMate?

[Stfcap]

Three M10x80 stainless steel screws. Is that enough or do I add an M12 central bolt ? 

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[Starlancer]

Was just wondering if anyone else ordered from Deep Space Products?  I paid in full about 10 days ago and haven't heard any shipping update.  I did get an email last week he was sick, hope it's nothing serious.

[Psychlist1972]

Which would you recommend with this mount, ASIAIR plus or the StellarMate?

Mini PC with NINA and PHD2

Pete

[Seaquel47]

I'm looking forward to folks posting their guide logs and hopefully for Andrew (OzAndrewJ) to analyze them to see if this mount exhibits the same cross talk between the RA and DEC that the other strain way mounts do.

[Progresseagle]

Three M10x80 stainless steel screws. Is that enough or do I add an M12 central bolt ? 

I think you just made it better. It's semetrical and if all else is screwed in, that looks like a gold standard

[OzAndrewJ]

Gday Seaquel47

and hopefully for Andrew (OzAndrewJ) to analyze them to see if this mount exhibits the same cross talk between the RA and DEC

I am looking forward to seeing some guided and unguided logs,

but i expect it wil be similar to al the others ( ie it will show at times and not at others )

That said, anyone can analyse the logs for cross talk using the freeware PEMPro log viewer.

It has a function to build guide data back into guide logs, but more importantly,

it allows you to analyse the DEC data using FFT, so confirming if fundamentals are there.

My own app does something similar, but i dont merge the guide data into the guided data,

i plot pure guide data, so i can see what the guider is really doing,

without any contamination from the "as logged" data.

If there is cross talk, the FFT on DEC will show it.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia

[akdwivedi]

Rainbow Astro worked directly with ZWO to get their RST mount working with ASIAir. Pegasus Astro is working with Simulation Curriculum (Sky Sarfari)  to build a dedicated  NYX-101 driver. IMO, Pegasus Astro should have worked with directly with ZWO to build a dedicate NYX-101 driver for ASIAir instead of relying on a Meade driver. It's odd that a $3000 mount is using a driver from a competitor. 

that's what needs to happen. When a new vendor introduces their product, it's their responsibility to work with all the ecosystem before claiming that its compatible and testing using test flags doesn't count. They need to test using the production version of the mount.

 

I have been with software industry for ~30yrs, it's very common. Whenever any of our partners releases a new version, we conduct a full regression test to ensure that our software works with the latest version of the partner software and if there are any issues, we work with the partner to fix the issue before any of our customer raises the issue with us or the partner.
 

[akdwivedi]

Three M10x80 stainless steel screws. Is that enough or do I add an M12 central bolt ? 

That's a beautiful pier.. is this nyx101 pier.

[Rasfahan]

that's what needs to happen. When a new vendor introduces their product, it's their responsibility to work with all the ecosystem before claiming that its compatible and testing using test flags doesn't count. They need to test using the production version of the mount.

 

I have been with software industry for ~30yrs, it's very common. Whenever any of our partners releases a new version, we conduct a full regression test to ensure that our software works with the latest version of the partner software and if there are any issues, we work with the partner to fix the issue before any of our customer raises the issue with us or the partner.
 

Your company is a rare orchid in the SW business.

[wacpet]

Three M10x80 stainless steel screws. Is that enough or do I add an M12 central bolt ? 

Give this man a medal! 

 

(I assume you had to drill the M10 holes?)

[astronewbster]

Hello fellow astroneers!!

 

I have gotten a confirmed carrier notification that I'll be getting my package by Friday.

 

Woohoo!!

 

Can't wait to start playing with the mount.

 

Here's my gear that's going on top of it. (scope is the Stellarvue SVX080T-3SV).

 

 

 

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Edited by astronewbster, 17 January 2023 - 07:40 AM.

[Bowmoreman]

Seems that Zwo has responded for the Nyx-101 compatibility issue with the ASIAIR :

 

Source : https://bbs.astronom...t-aa-firmware/5

This is excellent news, and the proper result

[wykbbb]

that's what needs to happen. When a new vendor introduces their product, it's their responsibility to work with all the ecosystem before claiming that its compatible and testing using test flags doesn't count. They need to test using the production version of the mount.

 

I have been with software industry for ~30yrs, it's very common. Whenever any of our partners releases a new version, we conduct a full regression test to ensure that our software works with the latest version of the partner software and if there are any issues, we work with the partner to fix the issue before any of our customer raises the issue with us or the partner.
 

I want to reiterate the point that testing using only test flags isn't how normal testing should be done. If there were proper communication channels in place between Pegasus Astro and ZWO, then those companies could have informed each other of software updates and fixed any issues before NXY-10 customers with ASIAir 2.0 got their mounts.  If these two companies can't figure out a way to test the latest version of the mount with the latest version of ASIAir before releasing changes to the customers, then it will be the customers who have deal with bug after bug after bug.

Edited by wykbbb, 17 January 2023 - 10:08 AM.

[Sctom]

How wide is the base of the tripod when fully extended i.e. distance between any 2 legs?  I am looking for maximum stability as I am considering putting my SV 130 on it if I get one.  And if I get one, it is mainly for my 130.  
Tracking accuracy will be noted extensively here soon on longer focal length scopes as that is the other biggie for me.

Thanks.

[ETtheExtraterrestrial]

Would love to hear real world tracking numbers folks are getting between 1 and 2000mm FL if anyone is running such a setup.

[chuckles]

Same. I’m waiting on more people to get these and post some numbers before I consider making a move. If it can handle a TEC 140 and something like a C9.25 I’d be sold.