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Pegasus Astro NYX-101 Harmonic Mount

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#1376 EFT

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 01:25 AM

Please don't confuse this mount with one that can be used without a guider.  Even the strain wave mounts (SWMs) with encoders can't do that.

 

The Nyx is a German equatorial mount. The GEM configuration has nothing to do with how the mount is driven.

 

People need to understand the technology they are using so they can set reasonable expectations for its use.  There is a lot of confusion about SWMs.  SWMs do not generally perform any better than the average worm-driven GEM of similar quality out there, and in some respects, they perform worse.  The benefits of SWMs generally come in the area of mount weight, small backlash, and often better build quality than the average mount (typically built in China these days).  That's why you get and SWM.  Not because most, if any, of them will outperform an average GEM out there.  Downsides are cost and mount weight (it's a positive and negative).  A light weight mount is not necessarily better than a heavier mount that requires counterweights.  In some cases (particularly when used with large/heavy scopes), people often confuse the ability of an SWM to lift a large weight with little or no counterweight to the ability to do so and perform well at the same time.  The increased cost of SWMs comes from the generally better-quality (in the mounts we've seen), and relatively expensive drive systems.  Strain wave drives were very expensive until the Chinese started flooding the market with small, cheap strain wave drives fairly recently.

 

If you get a strain wave mount expecting it to be easier to use than a standard worm-driven mount, you will be disappointed.  If you expect to image without a guider, you will be very disappointed. 

 

Like most things in this hobby, there are no miracle products that solve all the issues.  Of the three main mount drive systems available, worm, strain wave, and direct (torque motor) drives (there is one company that makes fully belt-driven mounts), the SWMs are probably the lowest performing if you consider them on the basis of three mounts of equal quality being compared.  Direct drives are probably the most difficult to use in most cases.  While high quality worm drives are still the most accurate, precise, and simplest drive systems there are.  So far, the addition of encoders to SWMs has not resolved the problems related to the strain wave drive system, but they have made guiding easier in some cases).

 

With all this considered, a mount should still perform reasonably close to the level at which it is advertised as performing.  While there is a lot of user error in this hobby, that doesn’t mean that there are no problem examples or problem products.


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#1377 Tapio

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 01:47 AM

Please don't confuse this mount with one that can be used without a guider. Even the strain wave mounts (SWMs) with encoders can't do that.

The Nyx is a German equatorial mount. The GEM configuration has nothing to do with how the mount is driven.

People need to understand the technology they are using so they can set reasonable expectations for its use. There is a lot of confusion about SWMs. SWMs do not generally perform any better than the average worm-driven GEM of similar quality out there, and in some respects, they perform worse. The benefits of SWMs generally come in the area of mount weight, small backlash, and often better build quality than the average mount (typically built in China these days). That's why you get and SWM. Not because most, if any, of them will outperform an average GEM out there. Downsides are cost and mount weight (it's a positive and negative). A light weight mount is not necessarily better than a heavier mount that requires counterweights. In some cases (particularly when used with large/heavy scopes), people often confuse the ability of an SWM to lift a large weight with little or no counterweight to the ability to do so and perform well at the same time. The increased cost of SWMs comes from the generally better-quality (in the mounts we've seen), and relatively expensive drive systems. Strain wave drives were very expensive until the Chinese started flooding the market with small, cheap strain wave drives fairly recently.

If you get a strain wave mount expecting it to be easier to use than a standard worm-driven mount, you will be disappointed. If you expect to image without a guider, you will be very disappointed.

Like most things in this hobby, there are no miracle products that solve all the issues. Of the three main mount drive systems available, worm, strain wave, and direct (torque motor) drives (there is one company that makes fully belt-driven mounts), the SWMs are probably the lowest performing if you consider them on the basis of three mounts of equal quality being compared. Direct drives are probably the most difficult to use in most cases. While high quality worm drives are still the most accurate, precise, and simplest drive systems there are. So far, the addition of encoders to SWMs has not resolved the problems related to the strain wave drive system, but they have made guiding easier in some cases).

With all this considered, a mount should still perform reasonably close to the level at which it is advertised as performing. While there is a lot of user error in this hobby, that doesn’t mean that there are no problem examples or problem products.


A very good and thorough summary.
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#1378 mrkhagol

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 10:31 AM

Please don't confuse this mount with one that can be used without a guider.  Even the strain wave mounts (SWMs) with encoders can't do that.

 

The Nyx is a German equatorial mount. The GEM configuration has nothing to do with how the mount is driven.

 

People need to understand the technology they are using so they can set reasonable expectations for its use.  There is a lot of confusion about SWMs.  SWMs do not generally perform any better than the average worm-driven GEM of similar quality out there, and in some respects, they perform worse.  The benefits of SWMs generally come in the area of mount weight, small backlash, and often better build quality than the average mount (typically built in China these days).  That's why you get and SWM.  Not because most, if any, of them will outperform an average GEM out there.  Downsides are cost and mount weight (it's a positive and negative).  A light weight mount is not necessarily better than a heavier mount that requires counterweights.  In some cases (particularly when used with large/heavy scopes), people often confuse the ability of an SWM to lift a large weight with little or no counterweight to the ability to do so and perform well at the same time.  The increased cost of SWMs comes from the generally better-quality (in the mounts we've seen), and relatively expensive drive systems.  Strain wave drives were very expensive until the Chinese started flooding the market with small, cheap strain wave drives fairly recently.

 

If you get a strain wave mount expecting it to be easier to use than a standard worm-driven mount, you will be disappointed.  If you expect to image without a guider, you will be very disappointed. 

 

Like most things in this hobby, there are no miracle products that solve all the issues.  Of the three main mount drive systems available, worm, strain wave, and direct (torque motor) drives (there is one company that makes fully belt-driven mounts), the SWMs are probably the lowest performing if you consider them on the basis of three mounts of equal quality being compared.  Direct drives are probably the most difficult to use in most cases.  While high quality worm drives are still the most accurate, precise, and simplest drive systems there are.  So far, the addition of encoders to SWMs has not resolved the problems related to the strain wave drive system, but they have made guiding easier in some cases).

 

With all this considered, a mount should still perform reasonably close to the level at which it is advertised as performing.  While there is a lot of user error in this hobby, that doesn’t mean that there are no problem examples or problem products.

Good to see Ed here and knows what he's talking about..really well saidbow.gif


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#1379 psandelle

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 11:41 AM

I concur with Ed. Having used various SWG mounts since the Rainbow Astro 150, all sorts of higher end mounts (still keep coming back tot he 10Microns), what he said is pretty much it.

 

Paul



#1380 archer1960

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 12:33 PM

Ed, I agree with you on most of your comments, but I'm not sure why you say direct drive mounts are the hardest to use. With no backlash and no PE, that seems like it would make them very easy to set up and control, though do need encoders in most (all?) cases. That tends to make them expensive, however...



#1381 EFT

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 01:06 PM

For the direct drive mounts, I meant generally from the stand point of available control software, difficult setup, free-wheeling in some mounts (e.g., Planewave L-mounts), and large size.  I have also know some people who found direct drives to be difficult to use in only slightly windy conditions.  The concept of the direct drive system is very attractive, but to date, the implementation is overly large, somewhat not user friendly, and can be very expensive, if not custom expensive.  These don't make for friendly user experiences.  But if you have one and have it well tuned, you probably like it.  Another things is that there are very few to choose from in a reasonable price range for amateurs.  US manufacturers are Planewave and Serses Scientific (custom).  In Europe there are two companies not dedicated to the US market, Alcor (very expensive) and ASA (little support, very difficult to use, and they have left the amateur market).  The result is that there are no particularly easy to use direct drive mounts when it comes to the overall experience.


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#1382 Tapio

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 01:24 PM

Here in Europe we also had friction mounts (Gemini).

Apparently they were nice mounts but not many were sold.



#1383 archer1960

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 02:08 PM

For the direct drive mounts, I meant generally from the stand point of available control software, difficult setup, free-wheeling in some mounts (e.g., Planewave L-mounts), and large size.  I have also know some people who found direct drives to be difficult to use in only slightly windy conditions.  The concept of the direct drive system is very attractive, but to date, the implementation is overly large, somewhat not user friendly, and can be very expensive, if not custom expensive.  These don't make for friendly user experiences.  But if you have one and have it well tuned, you probably like it.  Another things is that there are very few to choose from in a reasonable price range for amateurs.  US manufacturers are Planewave and Serses Scientific (custom).  In Europe there are two companies not dedicated to the US market, Alcor (very expensive) and ASA (little support, very difficult to use, and they have left the amateur market).  The result is that there are no particularly easy to use direct drive mounts when it comes to the overall experience.

I have a Planewave L-350, and as you suggest, it is large and fairly expensive, about the same ball park as an AP-1100 or -1600 without the encoders (with encoders, the APs are significantly more expensive). But I found it much easier to set up than my previous mount, a CGX-L. Since I use it in Alt-Az mode, I only need to balance in altitude, which is trivial, and the software is trivial to learn, much simpler than any of the astrophotography sequence managers (Voyager, NINA, etc). In addition, its footprint on my deck is much smaller than those APs would be. It is rather sensitive to the wind since the drive isn't nearly as "stiff" as a worm drive is, but where I live, the wind dies around sunset on 90% of the clear nights, so it's not really a factor.



#1384 mrkhagol

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 03:23 PM

For the direct drive mounts, I meant generally from the stand point of available control software, difficult setup, free-wheeling in some mounts (e.g., Planewave L-mounts), and large size.  I have also know some people who found direct drives to be difficult to use in only slightly windy conditions.  The concept of the direct drive system is very attractive, but to date, the implementation is overly large, somewhat not user friendly, and can be very expensive, if not custom expensive.  These don't make for friendly user experiences.  But if you have one and have it well tuned, you probably like it.  Another things is that there are very few to choose from in a reasonable price range for amateurs.  US manufacturers are Planewave and Serses Scientific (custom).  In Europe there are two companies not dedicated to the US market, Alcor (very expensive) and ASA (little support, very difficult to use, and they have left the amateur market).  The result is that there are no particularly easy to use direct drive mounts when it comes to the overall experience.

is direct drive intentionally marketed towards serious folks and not amateur?



#1385 EFT

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 04:18 PM

The friction drives have never caught on and are all made in the EU.  The manufacturers choose not to invest in the US or provide any US-based support, and thus, they are off the table.

 

A CGX can be a rediculously difficult mount to get to perform well compared to most premium mounts.  Alt/Az makes things easier with a Planewave mount, but then you loose the ability to track 180 degrees without a flip.  MaximDL is an expensive dinosaur.  There's a new version out, but I haven't seen posting yet to suggest that it has been greatly improved.  Other premium mounts have internal and specialized software capabilities that can be quite sofistocated, but I don't know why you would use them over today's all-in-one imaging packages.

 

Direct dive mounts are not exclusively marketed toward "serious folks."  The L-mount prices are still within the general premium mount price range and are advertised as such.  But they are not beginner mounts.  They are substantially marketed toward institutions since that has always been a large part of Planewave's business.  The other companies make very expensive and specialized mounts that are largely in the institutional price range (i.e., outside the range of most amateurs) and expertise.  


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#1386 EFT

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 04:19 PM

I would suggest that someone move this discussion to a new thread since it is getting far too off target.



#1387 archer1960

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 10:19 AM

The friction drives have never caught on and are all made in the EU.  The manufacturers choose not to invest in the US or provide any US-based support, and thus, they are off the table.

 

A CGX can be a rediculously difficult mount to get to perform well compared to most premium mounts.  Alt/Az makes things easier with a Planewave mount, but then you loose the ability to track 180 degrees without a flip.  MaximDL is an expensive dinosaur.  There's a new version out, but I haven't seen posting yet to suggest that it has been greatly improved.  Other premium mounts have internal and specialized software capabilities that can be quite sofistocated, but I don't know why you would use them over today's all-in-one imaging packages.

 

Direct dive mounts are not exclusively marketed toward "serious folks."  The L-mount prices are still within the general premium mount price range and are advertised as such.  But they are not beginner mounts.  They are substantially marketed toward institutions since that has always been a large part of Planewave's business.  The other companies make very expensive and specialized mounts that are largely in the institutional price range (i.e., outside the range of most amateurs) and expertise.  

Alt-Az does not require a meridian flip. It can go horizon to horizon continuously, though things sometimes get wonky for a few minutes at the zenith if your target tracks directly overhead. Just like an Eq mount would at the pole.



#1388 EFT

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 02:09 PM

It's not a "meridian flip", but it does have to flip.  An alt/az mount cannot continuously track across the sky in alt/az mode because the internal cabling has to be accounted for.  So it's a different kind of flip.  In addition, you "have" to use a rotator.  An alt/az is the ultimate in polar misalignment and thus severe field rotation.

 

I won't post any further in this thread.



#1389 archer1960

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 08:37 AM

It's not a "meridian flip", but it does have to flip.  An alt/az mount cannot continuously track across the sky in alt/az mode because the internal cabling has to be accounted for.  So it's a different kind of flip.  In addition, you "have" to use a rotator.  An alt/az is the ultimate in polar misalignment and thus severe field rotation.

 

I won't post any further in this thread.

I guess you've never looked at PW's L-series mounts. Mine goes horizon to horizon with no flip or unwind required. It will rotate ~540 degrees in azimuth between hard stops, and the homing sensors are somewhere in the middle of that range. It does this by having the cabling all internal, coming up through the azimuth axis, so there is at most a full turn of twist in the cable bundles, which is no problem if you have any slack in them at all. Dead simple. But yes, a de-rotator is necessary for anything beyond a few seconds of exposure.


Edited by archer1960, 07 October 2024 - 08:38 AM.


#1390 LRSibb

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 02:09 PM

The friction drives have never caught on and are all made in the EU.  The manufacturers choose not to invest in the US or provide any US-based support, and thus, they are off the table.

 

A CGX can be a rediculously difficult mount to get to perform well compared to most premium mounts.  Alt/Az makes things easier with a Planewave mount, but then you loose the ability to track 180 degrees without a flip.  MaximDL is an expensive dinosaur.  There's a new version out, but I haven't seen posting yet to suggest that it has been greatly improved.  Other premium mounts have internal and specialized software capabilities that can be quite sofistocated, but I don't know why you would use them over today's all-in-one imaging packages.

 

Direct dive mounts are not exclusively marketed toward "serious folks."  The L-mount prices are still within the general premium mount price range and are advertised as such.  But they are not beginner mounts.  They are substantially marketed toward institutions since that has always been a large part of Planewave's business.  The other companies make very expensive and specialized mounts that are largely in the institutional price range (i.e., outside the range of most amateurs) and expertise.  

At the risk of extending the off topic thread.... The Mesu 200 MkII is a friction drive mount and is made by a single skilled Engineer in The Netherlands. Lucas Mesu makes about 50 of these a year and his order book is full, although wait times are much much less than the two years for some mounts.  I have 2 in the observatory and they work very well, including with a CDK 14 at full focal length. Payload is 100 Kg, same as a 10 micron GM3000 - at about one third of the price.  It is a beautiful piece of engineering and sure, you can say they never caught on because of low numbers, but many in Europe, Canada and yes US use them.  Strictly used with guiding for imaging. Mesu has and will spend significant time with users to fix any problems - although the large silent majority has none. If one wants something for imaging in an observatory, it is a viable option. 

 

Agree with all of your other opinions expressed here - especially the nature of SWM. I love my Rainbow RST 135 , but for short focal length only - the ability to swap out optical train components without balancing is the best feature IMHO. 


Edited by LRSibb, 07 October 2024 - 02:13 PM.

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#1391 EFT

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 01:22 AM

I meant that they never caught on in the US.  There are clearly some being used, mostly in Europe.  They can be good pieces of equipment, but it is difficult to be in the US market without having a more public presence.  Even if is just a dealer.  I think that friction mounts can be good products, but no one wants to sell them in the US (I've tried).

 

It's good to hear that yours are working well and the support has been good.  The Mesu gets very little talk online.



#1392 Miguel1983

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Posted 18 October 2024 - 11:37 AM

I have the original version of this mount.  After a couple firmware upgrades it works well.  I bought the hand controller and have only used it a couple of times.  It needs a firmware update.

 

Trying to set the date/time.  OMG.  It wants you to use the up and down arrow keys to get to the precise date and time.  So you are supposed to hold the up and down arrow keys and watch things scroll by as opposed to setting the day, left arrow key, set the the month, left arrow key set the year, etc.  Crazy.

 

And they say it is intuitive.  Crazy, crazy. 

 

Hopefully it work out.  Seems like designed by engineers with no deep thoughts for usefulness.

+1 one the HC date/time rant.

 

This needs to be adressed.

First thing i reported to Evans was to ditch local time and DST.

This just ads complexity and confusion, UT should be the only time that needs to be set.

 

As a bypass i make a connection to the mount with my phone so it can import loctation and time.

After that i use the HC.

 

One more small complaint, the HC screen is almost not visible in the sun.

 

Besides the things mentionned above it is a well made quality controller.


Edited by Miguel1983, 18 October 2024 - 11:38 AM.


#1393 Marshalll

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 10:46 AM

Hey all,

 

I'm considering picking up this mount as a second mount, mostly for AP (with autoguiding) but of course will probably use it visually here and there.

 

I've picked up a few things by reading this thread, but wondering if anyone has a quick tl;dr on pros/cons of this mount.  Looking at the warpastron WD-20 as another option.  I have a fair amount of experience with my GEM45 (which I'll be keeping), so I don't expect I'll have much trouble learning to use this minus any quirks it might have. 

 

I don't think I'd put anything bigger on it than a fully loaded c9.25 on it, but maybe a C11.  Is this a viable option for that? 


Edited by Marshalll, 25 October 2024 - 10:50 AM.


#1394 tsk1979

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 02:29 PM

Hey all,

 

I'm considering picking up this mount as a second mount, mostly for AP (with autoguiding) but of course will probably use it visually here and there.

 

I've picked up a few things by reading this thread, but wondering if anyone has a quick tl;dr on pros/cons of this mount.  Looking at the warpastron WD-20 as another option.  I have a fair amount of experience with my GEM45 (which I'll be keeping), so I don't expect I'll have much trouble learning to use this minus any quirks it might have. 

 

I don't think I'd put anything bigger on it than a fully loaded c9.25 on it, but maybe a C11.  Is this a viable option for that? 

Same dilemma here. My GEM45 currently loads my C11 edge HD, but lugging around 50lbs of counterweights is a bit of an issue. So planning to replace GEM45 with something which can make do with 10kgs of counterweights. Even if mount capacity is 44lb I would require some counterweight to avoid tipping over.




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