68 replies to this topic

[ion]

There are only several thousand stars visible to the naked eye from planet Earth.
What happens when more satellites are visible than stars?
Astronomy is dead.

Starlink is the most literal disaster in human history: Disaster: Bad stars

STOP ELON MUSK

[Starsareus]

This will become a stamp collecting Forum !

[Richard O'Neill]

Fret not, in time Musk will fade away..

[Rickycardo]

If not Musk then someone else will do it. China, EAU, another company, some one. There's money to be made there and no one cares about the lack of stars in the night sky except a tiny fraction of us. I feel the same way about wind farms. I hate the way they have ruined the landscape and fear the day when that's all you'll see. But people want their Ipads and Twitter and smart cars and smart homes and cat videos more than they want a starry night or a pristine landscape.

[Jon Isaacs]

The satellites seem to be visible when first launched but im not sure how visible they are once they're in orbit.

 

Jon

[EJN]

There are only several thousand stars visible to the naked eye from planet Earth.
What happens when more satellites are visible than stars?
Astronomy is dead.

Starlink is the most literal disaster in human history: Disaster: Bad stars

STOP ELON MUSK

 

Seriously? 

Last year I lost the entire month of July to any type of observing due to smoke from forest fires. I have not lost a single night due to Starlink satellites.

 

SpaceX has brought human spaceflight in the US back from the dead.

 

Amateur astronomers are Chicken Littles. 

 

 

"It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine"

-- R.E.M.

[Enance42]

I have seen many posts negative about his satellites and not to many positive ones. Here's my 2 cents, they are definitely visible when first launched but once they spread out I can't tell his satellites from all the others that have been up there for years.

As for visual observing it is not an issue for me at all. It takes a matter of seconds to cross my FOV then they are gone. As for AP, the subs that have streaks are deleted or fixed in processing.

IMO the extra space junk is more of an issue than seeing a ball of light for a few seconds. That being said, Starlink is a great thing for people in rural areas. The internet in rural areas is terrible. Most folks in the city can't understand just how bad rural internet is.

Maybe instead of hating on Elon Musk for his satellites, we should work with him instead. Ask questions and voice concerns like what happens at the end of their service life?

[nicoyenny]

more than obscuring the night views, i am more worried about a Kessler Syndrome event

[Binojunky]

I remember a few years ago some company wanted to project advertisements on the moons surface, never happened but in the case of Mr Musk , he boldly goes ahead with no government being able to stop him. 

 Is it about his concern that the world has Internet access or just about making more money?, I choose the latter, as for LP in general, it increases unabated, in my neck of the woods its destroyed my viewing sites, my back garden is now awash with light from motion detecting security lights, my astro stuff?, mostly sold off I,m afraid, JMTCW, Dave.

[ion]

Seriously? ... Amateur astronomers are Chicken Littles.

It's funny you mention Chicken Little, Mister Fox, because the sky really is
falling. Forever when people looked at the sky stars were fixed. Now, not so
much, as "bad stars" rise and fall constantly.

 

As for visual observing it is not an issue for me at all. It takes a matter of
seconds to cross my FOV then they are gone.

Right now there are about 4,000 satellites in low Earth orbit. By 2030, less than
8 years from now, we're on track for 100,000. Very soon your FOV will be
continuously criss-crossed with these cosmic cockroaches.

 

my astro stuff?, mostly sold off I,m afraid

I feel for you brother. Astronomers who rationalize Losing the Sky to greed
make me sick. They will only see their errors when it's far too late.

Edited by ion, 10 May 2022 - 11:18 AM.

[Rickycardo]

Maybe amateur astronomy has only 50 to 100 years left before it ends. I mean nothing is meant to last forever.The vast, vast majority of people don't care about the night sky. If they want to see the stars they'll look at CGI universes on their tablets, and phones. As the population and civilization grows and expands I expect all urban and most suburban locations to be lit up like Times Square. I can't any way of it changing for the better for us. I plan to move out west to the last remaining dark skies and live out my life. I believe we are the last of an ancient breed.

Edited by Rickycardo, 10 May 2022 - 11:28 AM.

[sickfish]

"STOP ELON MUSK"

 

Good luck.

[John Fitzgerald]

I think amateur astronomy has only 20 to 25 years left.   Interest will wane as VR takes hold, and optical manufacturers will fold,  or go into some other business.

[Linwood]

Old folks convincing local cities and hoa groups that "we are not safe" unless we have enough street lights for daylight are a much bigger danger to astronomy than Musk. 

 

Last time out in the middle of the everglades, at a dark site, I looked east to a huge light dome from Miami, west to a smaller but large one from Naples, and north toward another from Ft. Myers.

 

Driving home in desolate areas on an Interstate, for miles at a time there were very tall poles with hugely bright lights -- as though we need street lights on interstates because.... well, we do not of course, but we are putting up more and more of them.

 

Add in the curse of LED's -- they are CHEAP TO OPERATE.  In the past one could say "look at the horrible energy cost" now you cannot.

 

It's not Musk -- the enemy is us.  Well, everyday people who cannot stand the idea of going outside in the dark.

[luxo II]

There is a solution and it's within the reach of amateurs to build it, but it's against the CN ToS to post it.

Edited by luxo II, 10 May 2022 - 08:45 PM.

[Dobs O Fun]

When I can observe during weather when it cooperates....

And when I can live at a place that is better than Bortle 9...

Maybe I'll see the satellites so much it will completely obscure M13 so I can't see it.

Well maybe not.

Please dont oppose Musk. I may need Starlink while I'm on the road in my diesel pusher class A motorhome. Otherwise how will Stellarium work?

[Brianm14]

Musk will eventually suffer a meltdown.  He’s the classic loose cannon.  The question is, how much damage -or improvement- will he inflict on us in the meantime?

[aatt]

I have noticed satellite intrusion has become a regular thing since starlink got going. If this rate is magnified 20+fold as projected it will become a constant and annoying intrusion
As to the post about Florida, what has happened to that state is tragedy of tragedies. It is the ecological jewel of the lower 48 and it has been basically paved over so northern folk can chase “ the good life” and lose their minds without winter to hold them together. The increase in light pollution has increased right along with that exponential explosion of growth to where formally dark areas In central Volusia county, for example, are now showing light domes in all directions. Bortle 2 is now pretty much eradicated in almost if not the whole state. My home county of Volusia is trashed for deep sky astronomy. That’s was not so in the 1980s and early 90s.
I find Musk and his arrogant rich guy ilk to be more annoying than starlink is right now. That will surely change as more of these things get launched.

[paul]

The thing is we lost this fight years ago. Satellites will NEVER damage the night sky as bad as local light pollution 

You can't see them but I can see ever billbord and office buildings effect for 50 miles 

lets worry about that first!'

[mikeDnight]

What goes up must come down! Remember Skylab?  Just be ready to duck!!

[Astronome66]

more than obscuring the night views, i am more worried about a Kessler Syndrome event

Had not heard of this. Your post prompted me to look this up on wiki. Thanks for this learning opportunity to start my day 

I wonder which is worse though, the proliferation of satellites or terrestrial light pollution? Trevor Jones posted a great info clip on the latter a couple weeks ago: 

https://youtu.be/nmkcNWyrVrk

Not sure what I can do to address the satellite situation, but I’m working with my neighbours to raise awareness about light pollution and better ways of meeting their night security goals.

Edited by Astronome66, 12 May 2022 - 06:26 AM.

[Matt_Lily]

From what I have read, Starlink is more of a threat for astro photography.  But Starlink and terrestrial light pollution all factor in together to degrade professional and amateur astronomy.

 

As for Musk and SpaceX, in my opinion, I find the the continued corporatization of space disturbing.  With billionaire backed for profit projects like Starlink getting "rubber stamp" approval with little or no input from astronomers or the public. Equally disturbing  to me is the reliance on non-NASA corporations like SpaceX to lead the U.S.space program.  

[Linwood]

From what I have read, Starlink is more of a threat for astro photography.  But Starlink and terrestrial light pollution all factor in together to degrade professional and amateur astronomy.

 

As for Musk and SpaceX, in my opinion, I find the the continued corporatization of space disturbing.  With billionaire backed for profit projects like Starlink getting "rubber stamp" approval with little or no input from astronomers or the public. Equally disturbing  to me is the reliance on non-NASA corporations like SpaceX to lead the U.S.space program.  

 

I think both assumptions are incorrect. 

 

(Good) Image integration software just discards satellite trails.  I guess if they get TOO bad that will be more difficult, but I rarely have issues with that, and ALWAYS have issues with light pollution.  My darn neighbor feels a need for his back yard lights to be on most of the night, and point outwards so my telescope casts a literal shadow on my house.

 

As to the US Space program -- while it may be the world's best, it is a string of over-priced erratic successes mixed with serious failures, and especially failure to innovate.  Look how far private companies came in areas like booster recovery and reusability in, relatively speaking, no time.  Governments may have the required resources, but they tend to be plodding and risk adverse.  They are also at the whim of an increasingly polarized and flip-flopping political environment. 

 

If you want progress fast, it will come from private companies looking to get rich(er) over the long haul.  That is not necessarily a good thing for all sorts of reasons -- but it is a fact. 

 

As to "little input from astronomers"... .really?   You expect the government to care what 0.001% of the public thinks?   Sure, it's sad, but also unsurprising.  The government rarely cares what the MAJORITY thinks in this country now, only those who fund their campaigns with over- and under-the table money.

[xiando]

Lol, reading comments from a combo of people who claim to love science who are wishing for the death of satellites, combined with rich bonbons with $10K scopes who aren't subject to crime, complaining about poor, old, urban people subject to an increasingly more criminal environment. I suppose the "real" solution for all those poor urban folk is a bit like your answer to escalating gas prices, right? Just buy a $30K $40K $50K  electric vehicle and a safe rural compound. Like OMG, so like simple. Classic CN.

[Dobs O Fun]

Lol, reading comments from a combo of people who claim to love science who are wishing for the death of satellites, combined with rich bonbons with $10K scopes who aren't subject to crime, complaining about poor, old, urban people subject to an increasingly more criminal environment. I suppose the "real" solution for all those poor urban folk is a bit like your answer to escalating gas prices, right? Just buy a $30K $40K $50K electric vehicle and a safe rural compound. Like OMG, so like simple. Classic CN.

Agreed.


I noticed a trend not just here but on other platforms that there is a general hate for the rich and prosperous.

Regarding Mr. Musk I have seen comments to the effect that he is accused of greed and arrogance, yet I doubt that poster has ever met him.

It's okay that we have expensive scopes and EPs but someone who is affluent and does so much with his money is ill-regarded.

Sometimes I believe that hate is jealousy in the mix.

We should be so fortunate to have finances like he does, if and only if we would do something positive with it like start companies that create jobs, initiate research and development for better technologies.

Lord forbid we look outside of the boundaries of our own lives.