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I wonder if black holes are portals to big bangs.

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#1 MeridianStarGazer

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 12:05 PM

Now way to fly down one and find out, as the pass through blows out as sub atomic particles that must condense to form hydrogen.

Since we don't see new matter entering our universe, maybe a blackhole must reach a critical mass to blow into another. With space here expanding, and galaxies taking their sweet time, that would mean it is so rare or infrequent as to become moot as an explanation for big bangs.

Looking at the galaxies out there at different angles, the explosion theory still seems likely. But why did it happen?

#2 Alex Swartzinski

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 12:34 PM


Since we don't see new matter entering our universe, maybe a blackhole must reach a critical mass to blow into another. With space here expanding, and galaxies taking their sweet time, that would mean it is so rare or infrequent as to become moot as an explanation for big bangs.

Looking at the galaxies out there at different angles, the explosion theory still seems likely. But why did it happen?

 As a pure ameratur, I'll take a crack at this since it's the internet and I can pretend to know what I'm talking about smile.gif.

 

If one black hole can blow into another, there should be evidence of the gravitational interaction since gravity bends space and time. Another thing to consider is Hawking Radiation. Black holes loose particles over time. Eventually, they will die just like everything else in the universe. Could this prevent the threshold from occurring that you theorize?

 

I don't know if we will ever understand the full story behind black holes, but the recent picture of our own galaxy's black hole gives me hope.  

 

As for the exposition theory, my favorite is not supported by current evidence. If the universe experiences cycles of big bangs, expansion, and contraction, we would live in an ageless universe. How cool would that be to think of all the galaxies that once where 50+ billion years ago. It would also make me feel happy to know the age of star light will occur once again once the universe goes dark...

 

But, we do not see any evidence of the universe's expansion slowing down. Quite the opposite is occurring. It's actually speeding up. Before too long (in cosmic timescales) we will no longer see distant galaxies that are redshifting away from us. 

 

I guess I better get the dob out to a dark site while I still can!



#3 JohnBear

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 01:20 PM

Based on the current evidence available to us earthlings: Could be, but Maybe Not! Maybe in another few thousand years we will collect enough data to develop a reasonable (testable) hypothesis. Until then it just seems to be speculation. So as a wise monk once said "Be patient Grasshopper", continue learning, and someday you may become wise enough to understand the universe.

#4 ion

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 02:01 PM

Since we don't see new matter entering our universe


It depends where you look. I'm not a physicist but they say every cubic meter of
space probably represents an amount of energy. As the universe expands there's
more space. More space has more energy than less space. Since energy and matter
have an equivalence this may be seen as more matter. In other words the Big Bang
never ended...

#5 Keith Rivich

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 04:58 PM

Now way to fly down one and find out, as the pass through blows out as sub atomic particles that must condense to form hydrogen.

Since we don't see new matter entering our universe, maybe a blackhole must reach a critical mass to blow into another. With space here expanding, and galaxies taking their sweet time, that would mean it is so rare or infrequent as to become moot as an explanation for big bangs.

Looking at the galaxies out there at different angles, the explosion theory still seems likely. But why did it happen?

I think blackholes are just as simple as they appear. Not a portal. Not a wormhole. Matter just falls into the black hole, gets crushed into "what ever it is", and adds to the mass of the object. Throw a 16 pound bowling ball into a BH and the mass of the BH goes up 16 pound's. 


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#6 JohnBear

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 05:06 PM

I think blackholes are just as simple as they appear. Not a portal. Not a wormhole. Matter just falls into the black hole, gets crushed into "what ever it is", and adds to the mass of the object. Throw a 16 pound bowling ball into a BH and the mass of the BH goes up 16 pound's.


Sounds like a fun experiment to easily prove the point.
I'll supply the bowling ball if someone can provide the BH scale!

#7 Keith Rivich

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 05:52 PM

Sounds like a fun experiment to easily prove the point.
I'll supply the bowling ball if someone can provide the BH scale!

I've got a whole rack of used balls in my game room. Working on small mass black hole as we speak to test my hypothesis. If you hear about Houston disappearing you will know that I made the BH a little to big! 


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#8 JohnBear

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 07:16 PM

BHs are tricky. You have to be very careful when transporting them - as my former physicist friend Fast Eddy found out while moving a microscopic BH from his basement to the lab!

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#9 1001001

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 09:34 AM

PBS Space Time regularly posts astrophysics videos.

 

Could The Universe Be Inside A Black Hole?

https://youtu.be/jeRgFqbBM5E



#10 1001001

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 09:59 AM

The funny but mind-blowing part is at the end.

 

We're "probably" not inside a black hole / white hole.

But we cannot rule out the possibility that we are indeed inside one.

There is a mathematical path to: our universe is inside a black hole.

What's amazing is that black holes might spew out other universes.

And black holes within those universes may in turn spew out other universes.

And so on.  Eyecrazy.gif 



#11 Jii

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 10:51 AM

Related to BHs and to where they might lead:

 

https://arstechnica....possible-steps/



#12 dave253

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 09:42 PM

My understanding of cosmology etc is very low, but shouldn’t it be a two way system?

Ie; we should be able to see stuff blurting out some of them, coming from the other direction?

my head hurts. :)



#13 1001001

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 10:07 PM

My understanding of cosmology etc is very low, but shouldn’t it be a two way system?

Ie; we should be able to see stuff blurting out some of them, coming from the other direction?

my head hurts. smile.gif

That’s what a white hole does… spews out light and matter.

It's a black hole in reverse.

But it’s all theoretical for now, unless this Universe is a white hole.

Our Big Bang would be the white hole’s singularity.

 

Sounds like crazy talk, but some modern physics is way out there.

Makes for good Marvel Universe sci-fi plots and graphics.


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#14 JohnBear

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 10:51 PM

Now consider how you would logically explain the above concepts to berserk pillaging Vikings several thousand years ago, and you may start to understand why aliens haven't been so keen on contacting humans yet. Could be that communications with Earthlings might be a bit like trying to teach angry wild pigs to sing in harmony.

Today we humans may see seem to be much more advanced and sophisticated than humans during the Viking age, but on the sapient intelligence and maturity evolution meterstick (tallying our collective plusses and minus) I would estimate we still have about 98 more cm to achieve real collective sapient intelligent, maturity, and potential as a species.

I do hope humanity will adopt something like reaching the 99 cm mark on that evolution meterstick as a goal, instead of just assuming that we are currently about the best we can ever be.

Edited by JohnBear, 17 May 2022 - 10:53 PM.

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#15 FirstSight

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 12:51 PM

Until a hypothesis can be formulated into a testable proposition, it's nothing but a fever dream of the imagination, however luridly interesting the speculation may be, and not any sort of useful scientific knowledge. The only sort of testable propositions available for a black hole is its observed effects on matter and energy that is still outside the event horizon of the black hole.

The only means by which to test whether matter and energy inside the black hole disappears into or emerges from somewhere entirely else (whether to potentially to another dimension, universe, white hole, etc.) - is whether we could somehow accurately measure (and distinguish) an increase or loss of the hole's net mass/energy that isn't accounted for by mass/energy infalling from outside the black hole. If we could somehow do that, we could test whether the hole has some sort of internal input or output path to/from either another entirely separate location in this universe, or else from some other unknown dimension or universe.

What about Hawking radiation - whereby black holes very gradually evaporate due to quantum vacuum fluctuations of paired particles, where one spontaneously pops up outside the black hole's event horizon. However, if such exists, it's such an extremely slow process as to be incapable of measurement even over earth-geological time frames - for example it would take 1067 years for the black hole with the mass of our sun to evaporate via Hawking radiation. And even if we hypothetically could meaningfully measure Hawking radiation in human-comprehensible time, the confirmation of Hawking radiation phenomena would of itself not testably prove whether excess mass/energy disappears to or emerges from some other remote location within our universe, or else another dimension or universe entirely. All our ability to measure Hawking radiation would accomplish wrt detecting whether excess matter/energy was disappearing or emerging from some other remote location/ dimension/ other universe is to give us a more accurate baseline to attempt to measure such from.

#16 1001001

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 08:28 AM

Does the strength of gravitational lensing depend on mass?

As in, more mass = more light bending = reduced focal length.

If so, there is an empirical path to see if a black hole is losing mass.

Or gaining it, or holding steady.

(Of course it’s gaining mass, but is some leaking away?)
 

If indeed some mass is lost, it lends credence to multiple universe models.

In that case, we can toss the conservation of energy and mass paradigm.

Our universe would not be a closed system anymore.

(Perhaps there is conservation across the multiverse instead).

Regardless, we cannot empirically demonstrate whether there is a net loss or not.

There is simply too much matter to measure. 


Edited by 1001001, 19 May 2022 - 08:54 AM.


#17 Keith Rivich

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 01:42 PM

Now consider how you would logically explain the above concepts to berserk pillaging Vikings several thousand years ago, and you may start to understand why aliens haven't been so keen on contacting humans yet. Could be that communications with Earthlings might be a bit like trying to teach angry wild pigs to sing in harmony.

Today we humans may see seem to be much more advanced and sophisticated than humans during the Viking age, but on the sapient intelligence and maturity evolution meterstick (tallying our collective plusses and minus) I would estimate we still have about 98 more cm to achieve real collective sapient intelligent, maturity, and potential as a species.

I do hope humanity will adopt something like reaching the 99 cm mark on that evolution meterstick as a goal, instead of just assuming that we are currently about the best we can ever be.

But we are not "berserk pillaging Vikings"...


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#18 JohnBear

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 02:19 PM

I agree!

But we are not "berserk pillaging Vikings"...

We are currently the equivalent of ""berserk pillaging Vikings" that have evolved for a couple thousand years and now have much better weapons of mass destruction (including nations with Nuke arsenals) - an exception includes most current CN members that have evolved much better due to a more inclusive and "universal" perspective about things, IMHO. .

 

The portion of our current human population that is actually concerned about, and really trying to achieve/support, sapient intelligent evolution is a relatively small percentage of humanity (I'd guess no more than 15%).  Look at it from the alien perspective:  What halfway intelligent lifeforms would want to introduce themselves (and their advanced technologies) to us without fear of being "plundered" by ruthless, greedy humans hordes?  Just Say'n - they are supposed to be "intelligent" after all!  

 

Consider this: What, if we happened to discover a nearby star with sentient beings that were collectively organized into many competing factions that processed weapons of mass destruction and were constantly at odds with each other (seldom went more than a few solar cycles without a war of some sort), and they all generally took advantage of weaker factions - not to mention being on a path towards global environmental destruction. Would you advocate an open invitation for any of them to come visit your home? 

 

I personally would only consider inviting a few amateur astronomers and research scientists if I absolutely had to invite someone.

 

My guess is that we need to to survive and evolve as an intelligent species for at least another 5000 year to reach the 90cm mark on the advanced sapient intelligence meterstick.  The continued open exchange of innovative ideas on forums like this should likely help us achieve that goal, but we do need to be patient.. 


Edited by JohnBear, 19 May 2022 - 02:49 PM.



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