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Takahashi FC-100 from Zen-Ugh

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#1 Steve_M_M

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 04:24 PM

Hey All,

 

Shoot!  I already posted this.  The word Ugh is not supposed to be in the title.

 

A new scope just arrived 30 minutes ago....

 

The scope is this one that I purchased on zenmarket.jp   Post 32 here...  https://www.cloudyni...2#entry11875611 Lots of people emailed me after I posted that I purchased this and wanted more information.

 

Zen was awesome as usual to work with.  They are easy to use, safe, and VERY responsive.  This auction closed on Monday May 8th.  The scope arrived at Zen on May 12th.  Zen packed it on Friday May 13th and shipped it on Monday May 16th (yesterday).  Picture of the box and packing are attached.  It was well packed as has been everything I have purchased from Zen.  It was 10500 grams (23lbs) and cost 16,235Y ($125) to ship by what appears to be overnight delivery.  I used UPS this time.  For my 6 other purchases from Zen over the past 5 years or so, I have used Fedex and EMS.  All 3 have been successful for me, so I just choose the lowest cost.

 

Now for what arrived.  WOW! is about all I can say.  Just WOW!

 

All of the accessories are "like new".  My guess is everyone one of them including the eyepieces has not been used.  Also, all the boxes were included which I was not expecting.  All had original packing material.  In the kit was:

 

7mm and 18mm Or, 9mm K, and a brand new 4mm Hi-Or (my Pentax 75EDHF is going to love this eyepiece)

Takahashi .965" diagonal in mint condition

Takahashi .965" 4 turret eyepiece holder_I have never seen on of these.  Its very smooth

CA 35 to convert the rear to accept M42.  This is awesome to have as the scope will be a dedicated imaging scope

FC-100 F5.9 Reducer.  Brand new again.  Both covers.  Should make this setup awesome for imaging.

TS-001 Camera Adapter.  This piece will need more research.  It is not your typical camera adapter.  Had to cost a ton back in the day.  I will create a post just for this when I have time.

 

Now for the scope.  I haven't look at the lens yet.  The tube is dirty but appears to be something that will look spotless by the end of tonight.  No scratch, no dents, not fading.  I wasn't expecting the sewer cover lens cap, but it is here.  Super happy about that.  The focuser is smooth through the entire travel.  Honestly, it feels brand new.  The clamshell looks unused like everything else.  The Takahashi 8x50 finder is in very good condition, but is lacking caps.  

 

Oh my, the lens is bad, very bad,  It's a 1985 FC-100 and I have wonder how it got this way.  

 

Oh well, I am still very happy.  And I don't think I can make the lens any worse than it is, so that makes it easy to work on  smile.gif

 

It will take a few minutes to post pictures...


Edited by Steve_M_M, 17 May 2022 - 05:22 PM.

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#2 Steve_M_M

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 04:30 PM

Packing

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#3 Steve_M_M

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 04:35 PM

Accessories 

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#4 Steve_M_M

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 04:38 PM

Scope.  Lol.  I already pulled the lens out. I couldnt wait.  Bad me 😃

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#5 Steve_M_M

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 04:43 PM

The lens is as bad as the original bad pictures show.  The fluorite element cleaned up to be very nice.  The flint element has a "haze" from the edge toward the center all the way around about 1" in from edge to center at its worst with coating deterioration and then a lighter haze towards the middle.  It is not mold/fungus.  Light cleaning did nothing.  The pictures in the ad are far better than anything I can get.  Any ideas on how to get it back to clear?  If the coatings go, that is ok.  Is this the dreaded "takahashi haze" that I see a lot on older TS-65's and early FS-50"s?

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Edited by Steve_M_M, 17 May 2022 - 05:24 PM.

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#6 Terra Nova

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 05:24 PM

The lens is as bad as the original bad pictures show.  The fluorite element cleaned up to be very nice.  The other element has a "haze" from the edge toward the center all the way around about 1" in from edge to center at its worst with coating deterioration and then a lighter haze towards the middle.  It is not mold/fungus.  Light cleaning did nothing.  The pictures in the ad are far better than anything I can get.  Any ideas on how to get it back to clear?  If the coatings go, that is ok.  Is this the dreaded "takahashi haze" that I see a lot on older TS-65's and early FS-50"s?

So sorry about the objective Steve. The good thing is that it’s not the fluorite element; the hazed element can stand up to more aggressive cleaning. Otherwise, it’s in great condition with a bevy of nice mint-like accessories. I love that Zeissish turret!


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#7 Steve_M_M

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 10:07 PM

Tube and dew shield cleaned up well.  They had quite the layer of 35 year old dirt and grime. 

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#8 deSitter

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 10:23 PM

Would be worth sending home for refinishing.

 

Hope it works out!

 

-drl


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#9 Lagrange

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 11:50 AM

Fogging of the flint mating element is apparently a known but occasional issue with some of those early FC models. I believe Tak will fix it, but it would involve either re-polishing or replacing the element which means a trip back to Japan and probably wouldn't be cheap.

 

It would be worth enquiring about though, and would give you a starting point to assess your options. TNR might be able to give you more information.


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#10 Bomber Bob

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 05:06 PM

The lens is as bad as the original bad pictures show.  The fluorite element cleaned up to be very nice.  The flint element has a "haze" from the edge toward the center all the way around about 1" in from edge to center at its worst with coating deterioration and then a lighter haze towards the middle.  It is not mold/fungus.  Light cleaning did nothing.  The pictures in the ad are far better than anything I can get.  Any ideas on how to get it back to clear?  If the coatings go, that is ok.  Is this the dreaded "takahashi haze" that I see a lot on older TS-65's and early FS-50"s?

Steve, you can try my Drastic Treatment on the Flint Element:  Soak it in pure chlorine bleach for no more than 30 minutes.  Rinse it with water.  Let it air dry.  If there's still haze,  use lens tissues & an ammonia-based cleaner like Windex.  That should remove all the haze without hurting the Flint...

 

This worked on both my TS-65 & FC-76, with no performance degradations...


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#11 ccwemyss

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 05:10 PM

Funny - this goes exactly against the very technical chemistry discussion in the Fungus thread.

 

As they say: In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. 

 

Chip W. 


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#12 Bomber Bob

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 05:17 PM

Funny - this goes exactly against the very technical chemistry discussion in the Fungus thread.

 

As they say: In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. 

 

Chip W. 

Well...

 

I ALWAYS work from Least Dangerous to More Dangerous....

 

- First:  Alcohol

- Second: Vinegar (or, Peroxide for mold)

- Third:  Windex

- Fourth:  Bleach, Baby!

 

Coatings?  Who needs those?  (Actually, in practice, brief immersion in bleach hasn't hurt the flint coatings.)

 

I'm not a chemist, and I'm sure there are other readily-available chemicals to try on these "hazy flints" but I've found pure bleach to be about the strongest at cleaning it...

 

BB's Big Question:  What causes the hazing in these TAK Flints?  Traditional Crown + Flint Doublets have been around for a Long Time, yet I haven't seen this hazing on my older achromatics...

 

In both of my Old Taks, the fluorite element stays pristine, and I think both are uncoated...  Is the culprit the coating TAK used on the Flint??

 

(FYI:  I asked this question on the Takitis! thread, so we'll see if there's any kind of consensus.)


Edited by Bomber Bob, 18 May 2022 - 05:39 PM.

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#13 rcwolpert

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 06:10 PM

Of course, never mix any of those 5 cleaning agents!


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#14 Steve_M_M

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 06:26 PM

I went through a lot of PEC tissues yesterday trying the less aggressive ways to clear the fog.  None made any difference at all. 
 

I am going to call Fred at TNR.  He knows me pretty well as I bought some of their first Taks for sale and a lot since.  I hope he is still there.  If he has had good success with these, I’ll probably take the lens to him.  I can easy pour some $ into this. If not, I plan to take some of these next steps.  
 


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#15 39cross

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 09:14 AM

Glad you came into a mini treasure trove of nice accessories...bummed the whole lens isn't easily cleaned.  I hope you get it sorted out!

 

I found a reference to the TS-001, the Takahashi eyepiece projection adapter on this Borg blog:  https://digiborg.wor...e-projection-2/

 

At the bottom of the entry there's a photo of the adapter with its box and some old lunar pictures, and these words: "And when I visited my parent house last time, accidentally I found out Takahashi eyepiece projection adapter. This original “TS” logo reminds us of the beginning time of their business. This is still good condition, well designed and made even I see today!! I try to play it around while feeling 45 years ago,  only for 0.965″ eyepiece though."


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#16 Steve_M_M

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 11:42 AM

That's a fun reference.  It is amazing how little is found with a google search of "Takahashi TS-001".

 

The good news is I think I can adapt this to accept 1.25" eyepieces.  And, I can pull out the entire eyepiece holder and possibly use this as a rotatable extension and  filter holder for my ZWO camera.

 

I knew the day would come when I would call TNR and Fred would be retired.  That day was today :(  Darren is Fred's replacement and worked with Fred for 20+ years. 


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#17 39cross

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 12:19 PM

I knew the day would come when I would call TNR and Fred would be retired.  That day was today frown.gif  Darren is Fred's replacement and worked with Fred for 20+ years. 

Hopefully Darren had helpful and hopeful advice!  Did he advise to send it to TNR fo rehab?  Or something else?



#18 Steve_M_M

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 04:49 PM

Steve, you can try my Drastic Treatment on the Flint Element:  Soak it in pure chlorine bleach for no more than 30 minutes.  Rinse it with water.  Let it air dry.  If there's still haze,  use lens tissues & an ammonia-based cleaner like Windex.  That should remove all the haze without hurting the Flint...

 

This worked on both my TS-65 & FC-76, with no performance degradations...

Believe it or not, this produced no noticeable difference.  I even went out and bought some new bleach and tried again just to make sure.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though, it was worth a try.



#19 deSitter

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 04:52 PM

Believe it or not, this produced no noticeable difference.  I even went out and bought some new bleach and tried again just to make sure.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though, it was worth a try.

Were I you, with such a fine instrument within reach, I'd just pack up the objective and send it to Takahashi for repair. You'll know you have a real, 100 percent functional edition of one of the best telescopes ever, and you'll recoup your costs should you sell it.

 

-drl


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#20 Ian King

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Posted 20 May 2022 - 07:12 AM

Were I you, with such a fine instrument within reach, I'd just pack up the objective and send it to Takahashi for repair. You'll know you have a real, 100 percent functional edition of one of the best telescopes ever, and you'll recoup your costs should you sell it.

 

-drl

I am guessing Takahashi would be able to recoat this lens as it must have come from Canon/Optron in the first instance, but last year I contacted them to see if they could recoat the lens from my TS50 - but they responded saying that the TS50 was too old and they were no longer able to assist. I solved it by picking up a new TS50 OTA which was probably the cheaper option in any case.

 

Since then I have done a number of side by side comparison between both TS50 scopes and I cannot tell them apart so the coating damage is having next to no impact on the image quality.


Edited by Ian King, 20 May 2022 - 07:14 AM.

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#21 James700

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Posted 20 May 2022 - 08:38 AM

I am guessing Takahashi would be able to recoat this lens as it must have come from Canon/Optron in the first instance, but last year I contacted them to see if they could recoat the lens from my TS50 - but they responded saying that the TS50 was too old and they were no longer able to assist. I solved it by picking up a new TS50 OTA which was probably the cheaper option in any case.

 

Since then I have done a number of side by side comparison between both TS50 scopes and I cannot tell them apart so the coating damage is having next to no impact on the image quality.

I had an early FC-100 with similar fogging and contacted Tak for any solution last year. They told me essentially following

 

"the equipment for re-polishing the lens and re-coating at that time has already been lost. Therefore, with Takahashi's old refracting telescope, maintenance of the optical system is only cleaning and optical axis adjustment." 

 

James


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#22 Dave Trott

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Posted 20 May 2022 - 09:05 AM

I am guessing Takahashi would be able to recoat this lens as it must have come from Canon/Optron in the first instance, but last year I contacted them to see if they could recoat the lens from my TS50 - but they responded saying that the TS50 was too old and they were no longer able to assist. I solved it by picking up a new TS50 OTA which was probably the cheaper option in any case.

 

Since then I have done a number of side by side comparison between both TS50 scopes and I cannot tell them apart so the coating damage is having next to no impact on the image quality.

I have also found that coating issues usually have a much more dramatic effect on the value of a scope than on the actual image. Try to sell a scope with bad coatings and you will see. 



#23 Terra Nova

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Posted 20 May 2022 - 09:06 AM

I had an early FC-100 with similar fogging and contacted Tak for any solution last year. They told me essentially following

 

"the equipment for re-polishing the lens and re-coating at that time has already been lost. Therefore, with Takahashi's old refracting telescope, maintenance of the optical system is only cleaning and optical axis adjustment." 

 

James

I guess the only recourse then is a total objective lens replacement. That’s sad. Certainly a cautionary tale for anyone considering buying an old one with a fogged lens. It must have been some defect in glass or coating?

 

One last possibility. There would be nothing lost and maybe something gained if the coating on the flint was stripped. See if the lens element cleared and if so, how it works.


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#24 Ian King

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Posted 20 May 2022 - 09:33 AM

I have also found that coating issues usually have a much more dramatic effect on the value of a scope than on the actual image. Try to sell a scope with bad coatings and you will see. 

I am sure you are right - I have the one with coating damage in a padded bag with a small photographic tripod which I sling in the back of the car as I am less worried about damaging it than the perfect one.



#25 Steve_M_M

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Posted 20 May 2022 - 09:03 PM

After hitting it with everything you could imagine.  No change. 
 

I have not heard back from TNR about a possible replacement lens.  Based on the last couple posts, there is nothing available. 

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Edited by Steve_M_M, 20 May 2022 - 09:15 PM.

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