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Celestron sct secondaries, spheres or aspheres?

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#101 davidc135

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Posted 18 September 2023 - 06:03 PM

So clearly there is nothing that will convince you that the Celestron SCT secondaries were aspherized, even the designer  of the scope and owner of the company that produced them, so there is no point in continuing this discussion.

 

ACFs are supposed to mimic the performance of a Ritchey-Chretien telescope.  Ritchey-Chretien scopes have bad astigmatism and field curvature,  Celestrons are completely different design.  A compact Schmidt-Cassegrain.  If you can get a copy of "Telescope Optics" by Rutten and ven Venrooij.  It's all explained in there.

 

I'm out.

I have Telescope Optics. Their optimised sct design is very close to the Meade ACF, I believe, and does have greater field curvature than the classic sct but minimal astigmatism.

 

But you should try to convince the Celestron engineering team who seem to have got everything wrong:

 

In the broadly distributed Celestron Edge HD white paper the  "Celestron engineering team" (the author of the paper) writes the following:

 

"Our classic SCT has three components : a spherical primary mirror, and spherical secondary mirror and a corrector plate with a polynomial curve"

 

They also write "in the EdgeHD, the primary and secondary retain smooth spherical surfaces, and corrector plate remains unchanged"

 

So the Celestron design engineering team says they are all spheres and has committed to that statement to writing.   

 

David


Edited by davidc135, 18 September 2023 - 06:20 PM.

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#102 KBHornblower

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Posted 18 September 2023 - 10:40 PM

This thread is the first time I have seen assertions that the original Celestron 8 ever had other than spherical secondaries by design.  Could this be another "urban legend"?



#103 davidc135

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Posted 18 September 2023 - 11:02 PM

This thread is the first time I have seen assertions that the original Celestron 8 ever had other than spherical secondaries by design.  Could this be another "urban legend"?

The coma free Celestron classic sct point of view pops up from time to time. DavidG has argued vigorously in its favour for years and very likely most members on the classics forum agree with him.

 

David



#104 tim53

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Posted 18 September 2023 - 11:40 PM

The secondary in my prototype C-14 is not spherical.  The new one I'm making started out spherical, verified against the test plate.  The ronchi bands in dpac were bowed ( ), but getting better as I learn how to aspherize.

 

Someone mentioned that the Celestron "matchers" spent only a few seconds tweaking the figures.  But in Piekiel's books it clearly states that is because they figured them on spindles, and could only run for a few seconds at a time between tests, not that that was all the time they spent aspherizing.  And for larger secondaries - like the C-14, the time for each run was minutes, not seconds.

 

The Matchers took months to train to know how to aspherize the secondaries before given the task in production.



#105 davidc135

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 04:58 AM

The secondary in my prototype C-14 is not spherical.  The new one I'm making started out spherical, verified against the test plate.  The ronchi bands in dpac were bowed ( ), but getting better as I learn how to aspherize.

 

Someone mentioned that the Celestron "matchers" spent only a few seconds tweaking the figures.  But in Piekiel's books it clearly states that is because they figured them on spindles, and could only run for a few seconds at a time between tests, not that that was all the time they spent aspherizing.  And for larger secondaries - like the C-14, the time for each run was minutes, not seconds.

 

The Matchers took months to train to know how to aspherize the secondaries before given the task in production.

But how do you explain JimHoward's post95 where Celestron say all mirrors are and always have been spherical?

 

There's hard and soft evidence. I could have said the results of these tests show the three mirrors to be essentially spherical and ask to be believed but I've put images out there for criticism. And I do ask that my k.e.t measurements are believed and it's also true that these were from 8'' scts and not the C14.

Celestron early on could have done similar to prove that their 2ndries were 'hyperbolised' but didn't, instead relying on vague wording to suggest that their scts were something more than they actually were. Later on when the Edge series actually were the real deal they could be straightforward.

 

Similarly, Robert Piekel could have included interferograms of finished C6 or C8 secondaries but doesn't apart from one spherical one which may not have been finished. There is one interferogram of an asphere but that's the 2ndry off a C22. He says that replacement 2ndries are 'likely' to need hyperbolising or words to that effect which doesn't sound wholehearted.

 

I think the opinions of the Celestron engineering team are the clincher but if the question is still up in the air why not post some hard evidence yourself? A Ronchigram of the whole scope and an interferogram of the secondary, preferably where the fringes run off the edge.

 

It's easy to show that the needed aspherical figure on a C8 2ndry is over 2.5 fringes deep in order to correct for coma and I'd expect even more for a C14.

 

David


Edited by davidc135, 19 September 2023 - 05:00 AM.


#106 jimhoward999

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 08:17 AM

Perhaps the Classic SCT has two spherical mirrors by design, but the secondary mirror is sometimes or was sometimes hand figured by a master optician in manufacturing to optimize the on-axis wavefront.



#107 tim53

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 08:41 AM

But how do you explain JimHoward's post95 where Celestron say all mirrors are and always have been spherical?

 

David

Why should I have to explain something said by a recent Celestron comment that contradicts previous Celestron comments (and personal experience)?

 

When I brought my C-14 prototype to Celestron to see if they could make a corrector for it, they said they couldn't (which I read as "wouldn't").  I can sort of understand - my primary has a larger central hole for the large ID baffle and larger secondary mirror.  It wouldn't fit their jig.  But when I offered to machine a sleeve to put into the perforation so it would fit the jig, they stopped responding.  And when I tried to purchase a corrector through a couple vendors, Celestron refused.  Much later, I acquired a corrector and secondary assembly from an Edge HD and a cracked corrector from a pre-HD C-14.  I'm using the one from the Edge HD.  (remember, that corrector with the original secondary, though not matched, nevertheless did okay on Jupiter and tested at about 1/3rd wave).  It would have been a simple thing for Celestron to simply sell me a corrector, but they may not have wanted to set a precedent where anybody could buy individual optical components and put together telescopes that wouldn't meet specs, thus giving Celestron a bad reputation for poorly matched optics or, more likely, angering vendors for selling components to ATMs and undercutting their market (the reason Celestron and Meade stopped having parking lot sales in the late 80s or early 90s).

 

That Celestron's published statements about how they make SCT optics is vague doesn't surprise me at all.  I was at Meade when John Diebel told us that now (1979) that he'd put Cave out of business, he was going after Celestron.  So the details are in interviews Piekiel did with former Celestron opticians and test results of actual production telescopes have a lot more credibility with me than these vague statements by, especially, the current Torrance staff who, for the past several years, haven't even made Celestron SCTs.

 

Edited to add:  To give Celestron a little more credit for not wanting to make a corrector for me:  The secondary hub on mine holds the secondary a couple inches inboard of a stock secondary, even though it uses the same corrector (same hole size).  So my tube is about 2" longer than a stock C-14.  They would have had to make a new jig, or modify theirs, in order to match optics in mine...  and the secondary is half an inch larger than the stock one, so they would have had to tweak the figure on it as well, and all that probably would have cost more in time than it was worth to them.


Edited by tim53, 19 September 2023 - 08:46 AM.


#108 KBHornblower

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 09:55 AM

If by aspherical we mean parabolic or hyperbolic, that is a major departure from the sphere and is more difficult to figure.  Retouching a nominally spherical secondary with a suitably zoned lap is much less drastic.  The challenge is in getting good smoothness along with the overall correction.  Dennis di Cicco at Sky and Telescope reported that around 1989 Celestron's retouching of the secondaries was achieving more accurate correction overall, while Meade's mix-and-match of machine-generated surfaces was making a smoother finished product.  Either way it was about getting the final image within chosen tolerances.  Visual evaluation of the scopes was inconclusive.


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#109 davidc135

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 10:37 AM

If by aspherical we mean parabolic or hyperbolic, that is a major departure from the sphere and is more difficult to figure.  Retouching a nominally spherical secondary with a suitably zoned lap is much less drastic.  The challenge is in getting good smoothness along with the overall correction.  Dennis di Cicco at Sky and Telescope reported that around 1989 Celestron's retouching of the secondaries was achieving more accurate correction overall, while Meade's mix-and-match of machine-generated surfaces was making a smoother finished product.  Either way it was about getting the final image within chosen tolerances.  Visual evaluation of the scopes was inconclusive.

I agree

 

Tim53

Your post underlines the difficulty of getting to the bottom of who said what and who's opinion is to be trusted and who's isn't, in order to arrive at a consensus.

Compare that approach with taking what we have in our hands and subjecting the results of robust tests to peer scrutiny. Although there's still likely to be interpretation needed and room for disagreement.

 

David



#110 gnabgib

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 10:55 AM

The secondary in my prototype C-14 is not spherical.  The new one I'm making started out spherical, verified against the test plate.  The ronchi bands in dpac were bowed ( ), but getting better as I learn how to aspherize.

 

Someone mentioned that the Celestron "matchers" spent only a few seconds tweaking the figures.  But in Piekiel's books it clearly states that is because they figured them on spindles, and could only run for a few seconds at a time between tests, not that that was all the time they spent aspherizing.  And for larger secondaries - like the C-14, the time for each run was minutes, not seconds.

 

The Matchers took months to train to know how to aspherize the secondaries before given the task in production.

Piekiel is absolutely right!  I worked at Celestron in 83 thru 84.  Kevin Ritschel was my boss and we spent most of our days answering the many phone calls that came in.  Quite often I had time to visit the "factory floor" in Torrance and would observe the many processes in making the sct telescopes.  The "figuring" room was one of my favorite places.  The technicians there would place the three unmatched elements in a double pass autocollimator and take their first look to tweak the alignment.  Sometimes they would switch out one element for another if the first look system correction was to far off.  Then the technician would evaluate the system, remove the secondary and cut out a thin paper disk in the areas they wished the pitch lap to be raised.  After a few seconds of pressing the paper between the pitch and secondary they would remove the paper "doily" and start the lap turning.  Then the secondary would be pressed down on the spining lap, held centered for a few seconds then moved around a little to blend the surface and back into the test fixture for evaluation.  On of the problems was the secondary was not given time to cool so the figure achieved with this method would be a bit different later on.  The best techs had a sixth sense about this and would try to  account for the figure change when the secondary cooled.  To help with this problem I suggested to Kevin the idea of using cervit for the secondary.  It was discussed but deemed to expensive (about 25 cents more)! So YES back then the secondaries were aspherized!  Today I have no clue.

 

Kevin


Edited by gnabgib, 19 September 2023 - 10:57 AM.

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#111 jimhoward999

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 11:20 AM

Piekiel is absolutely right!  I worked at Celestron in 83 thru 84.  Kevin Ritschel was my boss and we spent most of our days answering the many phone calls that came in.  Quite often I had time to visit the "factory floor" in Torrance and would observe the many processes in making the sct telescopes.  The "figuring" room was one of my favorite places.  The technicians there would place the three unmatched elements in a double pass autocollimator and take their first look to tweak the alignment.  Sometimes they would switch out one element for another if the first look system correction was to far off.  Then the technician would evaluate the system, remove the secondary and cut out a thin paper disk in the areas they wished the pitch lap to be raised.  After a few seconds of pressing the paper between the pitch and secondary they would remove the paper "doily" and start the lap turning.  Then the secondary would be pressed down on the spining lap, held centered for a few seconds then moved around a little to blend the surface and back into the test fixture for evaluation.  On of the problems was the secondary was not given time to cool so the figure achieved with this method would be a bit different later on.  The best techs had a sixth sense about this and would try to  account for the figure change when the secondary cooled.  To help with this problem I suggested to Kevin the idea of using cervit for the secondary.  It was discussed but deemed to expensive (about 25 cents more)! So YES back then the secondaries were aspherized!  Today I have no clue.

 

Kevin

Wow, sounds like you are a great resource for this discussion.    You describe a figuring process, where the secondaries were swapped and figures touched up in manufacturing for best performance.

 

But, before final figuring, did the secondaries start out as spheres?   Or were they hyperboloids?  If the latter there would have been a Hindle test set up somewhere in the building for testing the secondaries as components.     If they were nominally spheres, then it would just be test plates.



#112 Starman1

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 12:27 PM

Piekiel is absolutely right!  I worked at Celestron in 83 thru 84.  Kevin Ritschel was my boss and we spent most of our days answering the many phone calls that came in.  Quite often I had time to visit the "factory floor" in Torrance and would observe the many processes in making the sct telescopes.  The "figuring" room was one of my favorite places.  The technicians there would place the three unmatched elements in a double pass autocollimator and take their first look to tweak the alignment.  Sometimes they would switch out one element for another if the first look system correction was to far off.  Then the technician would evaluate the system, remove the secondary and cut out a thin paper disk in the areas they wished the pitch lap to be raised.  After a few seconds of pressing the paper between the pitch and secondary they would remove the paper "doily" and start the lap turning.  Then the secondary would be pressed down on the spining lap, held centered for a few seconds then moved around a little to blend the surface and back into the test fixture for evaluation.  On of the problems was the secondary was not given time to cool so the figure achieved with this method would be a bit different later on.  The best techs had a sixth sense about this and would try to  account for the figure change when the secondary cooled.  To help with this problem I suggested to Kevin the idea of using cervit for the secondary.  It was discussed but deemed to expensive (about 25 cents more)! So YES back then the secondaries were aspherized!  Today I have no clue.

 

Kevin

As of 2010, Celestron told me they used the system of making a ton of primaries, and a ton of secondaries, and then mixing and matching to get the best results, including rotation of the mirrors to find the best orientation.

I believe that was the system Meade used as well.  We didn't discuss the mirror manufacturing procedures, but he understood the mirrors to be spherical, as did I from prior conversations with Celestron.

What they did when they were made in California, I can't say.



#113 tim53

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 01:47 PM

Piekiel is absolutely right!  I worked at Celestron in 83 thru 84.  Kevin Ritschel was my boss and we spent most of our days answering the many phone calls that came in.  Quite often I had time to visit the "factory floor" in Torrance and would observe the many processes in making the sct telescopes.  The "figuring" room was one of my favorite places.  The technicians there would place the three unmatched elements in a double pass autocollimator and take their first look to tweak the alignment.  Sometimes they would switch out one element for another if the first look system correction was to far off.  Then the technician would evaluate the system, remove the secondary and cut out a thin paper disk in the areas they wished the pitch lap to be raised.  After a few seconds of pressing the paper between the pitch and secondary they would remove the paper "doily" and start the lap turning.  Then the secondary would be pressed down on the spining lap, held centered for a few seconds then moved around a little to blend the surface and back into the test fixture for evaluation.  On of the problems was the secondary was not given time to cool so the figure achieved with this method would be a bit different later on.  The best techs had a sixth sense about this and would try to  account for the figure change when the secondary cooled.  To help with this problem I suggested to Kevin the idea of using cervit for the secondary.  It was discussed but deemed to expensive (about 25 cents more)! So YES back then the secondaries were aspherized!  Today I have no clue.

 

Kevin

I'm using a zerodur blank for my new secondary.  I bought two zerodur flats from Steve Dodds, figuring i might use one for the tool.  But now I have a backup plan in case I screw up this one.  And if I don't?  I've got a nice 4" zerodur flat for testing small optics.



#114 gnabgib

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 08:00 PM

Wow, sounds like you are a great resource for this discussion.    You describe a figuring process, where the secondaries were swapped and figures touched up in manufacturing for best performance.

 

But, before final figuring, did the secondaries start out as spheres?   Or were they hyperboloids?  If the latter there would have been a Hindle test set up somewhere in the building for testing the secondaries as components.     If they were nominally spheres, then it would just be test plates.

The "mirror" components started out as good spheres.  Celestron had sphere making down to a fine art at this time.  Also as I said that was back in the mid eighties.  Today I have no clue how the sct optics are made. I can say that new optical trainees did not take long to get the knack of this figuring process.

Kevin



#115 jimhoward999

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 10:27 PM

The "mirror" components started out as good spheres.  Celestron had sphere making down to a fine art at this time.  Also as I said that was back in the mid eighties.  Today I have no clue how the sct optics are made. I can say that new optical trainees did not take long to get the knack of this figuring process.

Kevin

Thank.you.  That really tells the tale, and least for the time period that you were there.     The mirrors are good spheres, which are then aspherized as required in manufacturing by skilled opticians. 



#116 RichA

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 10:54 PM

 The weight of evidence is on the asphere. 

    1) Tom Johnson and stated this in a number of books

    2) In a number of a Celestron's own  literature it is states

    3) Each optical set was  hand figured on the secondary so why go through the trouble of figuring a spherical surface that would not correct for coma when you can design the system to correct for coma and aspherize the secondary ? There is no advantage to going through the process of figuring a spherical surface that doesn't reduce coma.  The cost is the same from a production stand point and the results is inferior from an optical stand point. 

    4)  Johnson was a smart guy, especially when it comes to figuring out  how to make the corrector plate. So he knew SCT optics very well. Both himself and Celestron literature reference a 1962 Sky and Telescope article that examined a number optical designs of the cassegrain family for astrophotography. That was the article that inspired him that a SCT was the best system for a commercial telescope aimed at astrophotography In that article it showed that a SCT with an aspheric secondary produced the best spot diagram. Why would he ignore this fact   if the goal was to produce a commercial telescope that one of the major selling point was for astrophotography ? 

    

      There is no evidence that the secondary is spherical that I can find from any statement from Celestron but  just the opposite. The spherical secondary comes from people just saying it over and over and making assumptions on the design and based on  a G power factor on the corrector of less than 1 when Johnson stated that  they made the correctors  power greater then 1. 

 

   Here is a section of Celestron's literature stating they "hyberbolize" the secondary.  Why use the term "hyberbolize" if they were just touching up an spherical  surface?  It also reference the 1962 Sky Tele article of why a SCT with a aspheric secondary produces the best spot diagram.  I can dig up more statements that  they aspherized the secondary and that they were doing it to reduce coma. 

 

      By the way Meade was doing the same thing but instead of hand figuring the secondaries to match primary and corrector  they had them aspherized in Japan and they would then swap them in and out until they found one that the correction would meet their spec.   They also understood the need for an aspheric secondary to reduce coma and to  compete with Celestron.  Meade had the aspheric secondaries made in Japan to reduce labor cost since from a production stand point that  is one the most costly factors in building the scope. 

 

 

                - Dave 

attachicon.gif celestron literature.jpg

What makes you think the speculation about design of the early 60's made it into the mass-produced and inexpensive scope of the 70's?



#117 duck

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 11:09 PM

So if you put a spherical secondary in an AC test of the tube assembly, it will show spherical aberration?  Then when you correct out the SA, (apparently in a prescribed fashion) you end up deforming the sphere to the appropriate hyperboloid?  This hyperboloid which corrects the only aberration you are concerned with in the AC test also is the correct figure to improve the off-axis performance?  How's that for a hypothesis?



#118 Starman1

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 12:28 AM

https://www.telescop...ics.net/SCT.htm

https://en.wikipedia...grain_telescope

https://www.scienced...l surfaces only.

https://doc.comsol.c..._telescope.html

http://www-personal....scopereport.pdf

 

There is a bit of reading material there.

Read all the links, then tell me what the shapes of the mirrors are.



#119 luxo II

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 01:21 AM

...the technician would evaluate the system, remove the secondary and cut out a thin paper disk in the areas they wished the pitch lap to be raised.  After a few seconds of pressing the paper between the pitch and secondary they would remove the paper "doily" and start the lap turning.  Then the secondary would be pressed down on the spining lap, held centered for a few seconds then moved around a little to blend the surface and back into the test fixture for evaluation...

That implies to me Celestron never really knew what the actual figure of the secondaries was in the finished scopes. While the theory says one thing, what came off the spindles is another.

 

1. Whatever the initial shape of the secondaries was, they weren't measuring them - you're all just assuming they were spherical. Probably a fair assumption, though.

 

2. What they were doing sounds to me more like "retouching", since the paper doilies were cut to suit whatever correction was needed as seen on the bench. I wouldn't describe it as aspherising since at no point were they actually measuring the secondary figure independently, nor trying to produce a specific figure.

 

And did the actual secondary shape matter ? No - all that matters was that a completed scope tested OK.


Edited by luxo II, 20 September 2023 - 01:25 AM.

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#120 jimhoward999

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 08:41 AM

That implies to me Celestron never really knew what the actual figure of the secondaries was in the finished scopes. While the theory says one thing, what came off the spindles is another.

 

1. Whatever the initial shape of the secondaries was, they weren't measuring them - you're all just assuming they were spherical. Probably a fair assumption, though.

 

2. What they were doing sounds to me more like "retouching", since the paper doilies were cut to suit whatever correction was needed as seen on the bench. I wouldn't describe it as aspherising since at no point were they actually measuring the secondary figure independently, nor trying to produce a specific figure.

 

And did the actual secondary shape matter ? No - all that matters was that a completed scope tested OK.

Per the discussion, the initial shapes were "good spheres".  Very likely measured with standard test plates.  Yes that is an assumption, but no optician would make a sphere without testing it.

 

The semantics around the word "aspherizing"   has fueled a lot of theories on this forum.  It seems clear from context that people at Celestron have used the word "aspherizing" or even "hyperbolizing" to mean hand figuring of a nominally spherical secondary using the other two components as the null.  Maybe its a misuse of the terms, but if that is the lingo that their opticians used, probably everyone internally understood.


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#121 davidc135

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 01:59 PM

Per the discussion, the initial shapes were "good spheres".  Very likely measured with standard test plates.  Yes that is an assumption, but no optician would make a sphere without testing it.

 

The semantics around the word "aspherizing"   has fueled a lot of theories on this forum.  It seems clear from context that people at Celestron have used the word "aspherizing" or even "hyperbolizing" to mean hand figuring of a nominally spherical secondary using the other two components as the null.  Maybe its a misuse of the terms, but if that is the lingo that their opticians used, probably everyone internally understood.

Celestron used the words aspherise or hyperbolise to purposely give the impression that they were altering the spherical figure more than they were. See bottom of post 86.

The Ronchigrams in post 81 were taken from a C8, SN 870515; year 87? so around the time that Gnabgib spoke of. I don't think anyone doubts that Celestron technicians were putting effort into figuring secondaries but would anyone call that surface 'hyperbolised'? And if it's not then no other classic C8 can be.

 

Does it matter? Probably not, Celestron did a good job, but some have mistakenly taken it to mean that their scts were sufficiently aspherised to be corrected for coma. And that is the subject of this thread.

 

David

 

P.S. The C8 Ota only with Sn 870515 stamped on the 2ndry housing. I just had a look at the registry so maybe late 80's.


Edited by davidc135, 20 September 2023 - 02:21 PM.

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#122 GlennLeDrew

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 10:53 PM

A few notes:

 

The Ronchi testing procedure performed by Celestron almost certainly was restricted to the axial condition only. Repositioning the various components of the test setup to examine the correction at some off-axis angle would have consumed time, and would do nothing to augment assessment of the all-important axial wavefront.

 

The speed of application of 'aspherizing' touch-ups, this being measured in seconds, is strongly supportive of localized application of correction. Not to say that a more global correction on a hyperboloidal (or some such) figure couldn't be performed quickly as well.

 

By strict definition, any departure from spherical, even of the most localized and narrow zonal correction, qualifies as aspheric. 'Marketing' speak can easily take advantage of this, vagueness of description being used to imply more than is warranted.

 

Daviddc135's Ronchi tests documented a page or so back lends credence to a basically spherical figure. The difference in the patterns is certainly smaller than that expected for a coma correcting secondary.

 

The recent Celestron literature describing the differences between the classic SCT and the Edge system, in which the spherical secondary is admitted, is potent confirmation. I would accord it greater weight than old literature from the 60s-70s in which the strong hint of the implying-more-than-warranted marketing speak leaps from the page.

 

Today we are conditioned to take mention of astrographic performance as implying good outer field performance. In those olden days of decades past, the same level of demand and expectation from a commercial instrument was not necessarily the case. I would be loathe to read into any mention of astrophotographic performance as extending beyond the field center.

 

The field curvature of the SCT is very considerable. Correcting for coma in the presence of the notable de-focus provides a gain that is arguably not commensurate to the effort.

 

When figuring the 300mm aperture f/2 elliptical Dall-Kirkham primaries for the Ceravolo astrographs, I spent about 5 full days on each primary applying the local figuring. The test was done via Ronchi on a system mock-up using the optional f/9 corrector in place, in double pass autocollimation. Figure, test, figure, test, for a total such cycles that would number perhaps about 50. (The fused silica substrate facilitated a quick turnaround due to the low c.t.e. obviating any real waiting to equibriate.) Testing was done ONLY on axis; the adherence to design tolerances guaranteed to result also in good off-axis correction.

 

When getting close to finished, and some particular narrow zone was under treatment, just a single revolution on the spindle was all that was required, with a tiny 1" diameter pitch tool swirled by hand with gentle pressure on that zone as the mirror slowly turned, for a dwell time on any one spot of about 2 seconds. And that's with the harder fused silica, which works more slowly that does, e.g., Pyrex.

 

A spherical primary, with corrective action applied to a tinier secondary, would have been almost languid hedonism by comparison!

 

Back to daviddc135's earlier Ronchigrams of his secondary mirror tests. Those 'grams remind me somewhat of the starting condition of a pair of 50mm f/3.3 bino objectives I aspherized for one of my projects. They were probably about 2 waves undercorrected, which I attacked with a soft lap of the classic 'petal' form so as to remove the most glass around the 70% zone. The before and after Ronchi patterns were VASTLY more different for those ~2 waves of correction than the very minor differences in David's tests. This is very strongly supportive of those SCT secondaries being fundamentally spherical of figure. I can't accept them as being aspherized to anything near to the degree required for correction of coma.


Edited by GlennLeDrew, 20 September 2023 - 11:02 PM.

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#123 starspangled

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 12:03 AM

I'd note that the standard Celestron SCT Coma corrector has been around for decades, probably unchanged . If the coma was varying depending on whether used with the all spherical design or aspherised secondary design , that one coma corrector couldn't possibly have done the job for the two variant if they exist as an older or newer version  ? 

 

Can anyone look at the total system design for that and it will show the aspheric component on the secondary .  I would  think that the specification for the standard F10 C8 has been the same for 50 years .  if the aspheric departure is only 2.7 fringes , a high speed spindle with stationary secondary could certainly polish it in really  quickly . 

 

I will have a closer look at all the SCT books and literature I bought from Robert Piekal a while back and see if I can find a smoking gun . I believe he repaired and refurbished many classic Celestron SCT's over the years ,


Edited by starspangled, 21 September 2023 - 12:09 AM.


#124 MKV

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 05:53 AM

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier on this marathon topic (as if it was, my apologies), but the easiest way to certify a convex surface as spherical is to make a good spherical concave test plate of the same radius of curvature (as the C8 secondary in this case), and test by interference fringes. 

 

Another way to determine just how aspherical it needs to be to give satisfactory performance (however it's defined) is to ray trace at off axis angles.



#125 davidc135

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 07:32 AM

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier on this marathon topic (as if it was, my apologies), but the easiest way to certify a convex surface as spherical is to make a good spherical concave test plate of the same radius of curvature (as the C8 secondary in this case), and test by interference fringes. 

 

Another way to determine just how aspherical it needs to be to give satisfactory performance (however it's defined) is to ray trace at off axis angles.

It was touched on in post 76 and a matching test plate and interference might be the easiest method if one was available. But is anyone actually going to make one just to test an already existing secondary? However, if the 2ndry needs to be made then the making of the test plate at the same time is not too much more trouble, as Tim53 is doing.

 

One advantage of using a commonly available 50mm f4 objective preferably out of a finder plus cheap beamsplitter cube was that all three secondaries with radii of curvature of 265,255 and 245mm could all be tested with adjustments made to the source and testing positions.

 

Whilst it's true that it's a bit rough and ready, that's allowable in the context of the scale of what's being looked for.

 

Ray tracing would be more exact but from existing data, back of the envelope methods will get very close to the required under-correction of the secondary for the elimination of coma in a 200 f2/10 sct.

 

Rutten and van Venrooij give the f2.5 2ndry's conic as -0.88 and corrector g as 0.834 for their aplanat whilst Vla Savek gives corrector g in an all spherical sct as 0.712. And we know an 8'' f2 sphere generates 22.55 waves of SA.

 

So 2.75 waves wf or 2.75 fringes surface has got to be pretty near.

 

A few extra details.

 

A Geoptic 50micron pinhole was used with a 20mm Surplus Shed beamsplitter cube as the source. An 80 lppi grating worked better than 120. Images were taken with an Olympus 4/3 micro with 45mm f2.2 lens, hand held with image stabiliser. I found the focus in auto with the lights on before switching to manual.

 

The three sets of Ronchigrams corresponding to the three secondaries can't be compared to each other as the Ronchi patterns depend on the f ratios (from 14 to 17) as well as the SA.

 

David


Edited by davidc135, 21 September 2023 - 07:37 AM.



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