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DSO’s - Will I see more details with a better eyepiece?

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#26 rgk901

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:22 PM

9 minutes later my scope is mounted, collimated, and EPs outside. That’s the great thing about these scopes.

Good hunting!


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#27 Chad7531

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:24 PM

Good hunting!


You made me do it. I thought I retired DSOs from my yard. :)

#28 rgk901

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:27 PM

You made me do it. I thought I retired DSOs from my yard. smile.gif

but...just remembered LOL ...the moon is out today!



#29 Chad7531

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:31 PM

but...just remembered LOL ...the moon is out today!


Yeah it’s not a real test, all in good fun. That’s why I rounded my bortle 7 up to bortle 8. I’m just curious what bright DSOs I can find now that I’ve seen them in a big scope in dark skies a few times. It’s been a while with this scope.
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#30 WheezyGod

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:42 PM

not the one you linked smile.gif
but the one I attached in my post above marked small scope...

One night last month or so with a dark sky and exceptional transparency/seeing for my area I saw probably dozens with direct and many, many more with averted vision. That's after keeping my eye glued to the eyepiece for a good 10+ minutes... the stars just kept exploding in front of me ! smile.gif

but more so than not it's a fuzz ball LOL


Ah okay now I get why you linked the image you did. Yea when I had a 114mm bird Jones telescope I also just got a fuzzball. I feel like out of all objects, aperture makes the biggest difference on GCs.
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#31 KWB

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:44 PM

You made me do it. I thought I retired DSOs from my yard. smile.gif

For me and my use of a telescopes even in my light polluted skies, I never say never as to looking for objects on the Messier List.

 

My light pollution situation isn't hopeless. In later June and into the beginning of July before the monsoon shuts down viewing, 2 DSO objects are the first 2 targets of my nightly search, no matter what the telescope aperture size is. M13 and M92 are there for the taking. I know where they are located using my finderscope or RDF and then switching a low powered eyepiece, I find them. This fall it will be M31. I just got a 60mm wide field telescope and look forward to finding all 3 targets as my first objects of search for the evening. smile.png  


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#32 Chad7531

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:50 PM

Ah okay now I get why you linked the image you did. Yea when I had a 114mm bird Jones telescope I also just got a fuzzball. I feel like out of all objects, aperture makes the biggest difference on GCs.


For sure. More aperture gave me hundreds of resolved stars in a 10” compared to zero in a 6”. That was a side by side comparison of about 15 GCs at the same time in the same skies. This was during galaxy season too and was able to directly compare at least 5 side by side, then the 6” decided it didn’t want to play anymore.

#33 Chad7531

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:52 PM

For me and my use of a telescopes even in my light polluted skies, I never say never as to looking for objects on the Messier List.

My light pollution situation isn't hopeless. In later June and into the beginning of July before the monsoon shuts down viewing, 2 DSO objects are the first 2 targets of my nightly search, no matter what the telescope aperture size is. M13 and M92 are there for the taking. I know where they are located using my finderscope or RDF and then switching a low powered eyepiece, I find them. This fall it will be M31. I just got a 60mm wide field telescope and look forward to finding all 3 targets as my first objects of search for the evening. smile.png


I have setting circles, I’ll find them if I can seen them. This 6” has seen quite a bit under dark skies.

#34 gnowellsct

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 07:56 PM

When I was starting out I figured that the best way to improve my eyepieces was to get a bigger scope.  I followed that philosophy from the c8 to the 9.25 to the c14.  At the C14 I called a halt.  This is as far as I go in aperture.   Then I started to upgrade the eyepieces, a process which took some years.  Maybe four or five.

 

Greg N


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#35 Chad7531

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 08:02 PM

When I was starting out I figured that the best way to improve my eyepieces was to get a bigger scope. I followed that philosophy from the c8 to the 9.25 to the c14. At the C14 I called a halt. This is as far as I go in aperture. Then I started to upgrade the eyepieces, a process which took some years. Maybe four or five.

Greg N


You can never go wrong with the biggest scope you can handle philosophy. I have a trick for acquiring expensive eyepieces I’ll share. Buy a bunch of random cheap ones. Then have a big sell off and only replace about half of them with expensive ones. Your significant other will be grateful you have less EPs and never know.

#36 AstroVPK

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 08:29 PM

I think the easiest thing for you to try to do is get to get to darker skies. The posts in this thread are from very highly experienced individuals and are not representative of what a newcomer should expect to be able to do. You have enough going on mastering your collimation and mount, let alone viewing M13 at 900x.

Dark skies are the ticket!

#37 Ionthesky

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 09:20 PM

Hi,

You mentioned that you have a Heritage 150p, which is a larger cousin of the AWB OneSky that I have.  Like my OneSky,  the Heritage 150p is a collapsible truss Dob.  You may find that ambient light will adversely affect contrast.  If you haven't already done so, make a light shroud to cover the open truss, and extend the shroud about 6" past the upper ring assembly.  Reducing the off-axis light hitting the secondary mirror can help you out with the faint stuff.

 

Regards, 

Dave 

 

Edit: here's a link to making a light shroud for the OneSky.  I'm including this just for reference.   You would obviously need to adjust dimensions for the larger scope.  This is just one technique.  Others can be found in the same thread.


Edited by Ionthesky, 15 August 2022 - 09:25 PM.

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#38 Chad7531

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 09:36 PM

Alright that was fun. I haven’t looked for anything I couldn’t see yet. M5, M13, M15, M92, M57, M27, M31, M10, M12, M3 all easy to find in the middle of bortle 7 Toledo, OH with a full moon on the horizon and a 6” f5. None of the GCs resolved, I thought M92 and M15 were going to give it up but nope. M57 took magnification very well, up to 5mm before I started losing detail. The inside of the ring was clearly visible with the 10mm. M27 was pretty faint but not too bad. M31 is visible at 26* altitude, very fuzzy. Also found M3, that one was tough at 27* altitude. Add M10 to the list, very faint against an almost bluish sky. And then add M12, toughest one to spot so far I think. Well I just realized I was using a 10mm for a finder on M10 and M12 so that didn’t help the cause, but still found them. M3 was only 25* altitude, easily spotted once I switched finder EPs :).

Edited by Chad7531, 15 August 2022 - 10:01 PM.

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#39 Ionthesky

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 09:37 PM

Also, I wouldn't hesitate to invest in some better glass.  You've been using the stock eyepieces for about a year.  That's enough time to know how they perform.  While a premium eyepiece may not make a "gee whiz" difference in the image, it will make a noticeable improvement, and (depending on the eyepiece you choose) will make the viewing easier on your eye.  

 

If you can, get to a club outreach event in your area.  Bring your scope and eyepieces.  You will likely find someone willing to let you try a premium eyepiece in your scope so you can judge for yourself how to proceed.

 

Happy hunting!

Dave 



#40 LtBrowncoat

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 11:24 PM

Wow, this was an amazing response - thank you all for your input! 

 

In summary - go to darker skies and plan better seeing conditions first, and then look at better eyepieces/scopes.
 

So, first, let's see what you have.  I can't assume you know anything about eyepieces or Barlow lenses, so I suggest you read these two articles because there are going to be terms thrown at you that you need to understand.

 

 

Understanding Telescope Eyepieces- There are recommendations, based on budget, but the meat of the article is about understanding the considerations and specifications to know when selecting eyepieces.
https://telescopicwa...cope-eyepieces/

 

Understanding and using a Barlow Lens
https://telescopicwa...ens-and-how-to/

 

 

You scope comes with 25mm and 10mm SUPER eyepiece (1.25").  I don't know what kind of eyepiece that is but I am presuming Kellners or Plossls, both of which will work fine in your scope but will have relatively narrow AFOV and, if you go any shorter, they will have very short eye relief.  There are lots of better options, but these should work OK for now. 

 

 

FL scope / FL eyepiece = magnification

 

750 / 20 = 37.5X

 

750 / 10 = 75X

 

So, the first thing is to recognize that you are only tapping into a small part of the capability of your scope which can easily handle 150X and likely 250X on a night of VERY good seeing.

 

Do you understand "seeing"?

 

What is SEEING and why it can be bad.  This is not a problem with your
telescope
http://www.skyandtel...ing-the-seeing/
http://www.damianpeach.com/seeing1.htm
http://www.damianpea...m/pickering.htm

 

 

 

Do you understand the impact of light pollution on what you see?  You say you are in the city so this will be a HUGE factor for what you see.   

 

When you talk about DSOs you have to be very specific.  Open clusters and nebula are very different from globular clusters and galaxies, all of which are DSOs.   How we view them can vary quite a bit.

 

Did you note that those images of the Hercules cluster says dark sky?  You are not viewing from a dark sky and no eyepiece is going to overcome that.  So, do you plan to go to a dark sky location to view it to get that kind of an image?  You will need more magnification than what you have now. 

 

 

The light pollution article can help a bit with that.

 

 

Light Pollution
https://telescopicwa...ight-pollution/

 

 

 

Once you read these three articles we can start talking about eyepieces.  There is no reason to wait till you have a "better scope" as better eyepieces will benefit you now, but perhaps not in the way you expect.  I use the same set of eyepieces in all of my scopes and that set has evolved over years. 

 

And don't forget we need to understand your budget.  I can easily recommend eyepieces that cost $300+.  Is that in your budget?

+1 to this, thanks for the detailed explanation and links, I've bookmarked all and read most of it for the night (will continue tomorrow) - but this is eye opening. Lots to fine-tune on my end and understand where/when I'm looking - also clicked on why some nights I was able to see "clearer" doubles/planets/clusters than others.

 

The highest magnification I can get is ~107 with a 7mm ultra-wide lens I bought with the telescope, but as others have said I will be travelling to dark(er) skies away from towns/cities soon to check out the difference. Also, I think my budget will hover around $1-200 CAD (~75-155 USD).

 

Thank you very much!

 

I can see m13 like this (sometimes even better) with my 6 from B9 on a dark moonless night with good seeing and transparency.

attachicon.gifScreenshot_20220815-170901.png

My tube is flocked and I have a dew shield sticking out for light control.


This is best observed without the moon and as high on the sky as possible.
I try to sheild my eyes best I can to get them somewhat dark adapted. I will stare at m13 as long as I can away from lights... you'll see the view improve gradually as your eyes adapt.


I will go as low as a 5mm fairly often on this... stars will eventually double the longer I observe as my eyes eek out the details.


darker skies are the ticket! But can be done from brighter skies.


make sure your collimation is spot on, or it will be a blur no matter what you do.


good eyepieces will travel from scope to scope, but the heritage needs light ep's so the expensive heavy one's won't work well on this scope but the paradigms and such work beautifully.

shield scope/eyes from lights, collimate, cool scope and observe without the moon and of course travel to darker skies whe you can.

have fun and enjoy!

This is very informative as well, if not inspirational grin.gif  - I've noticed that changing eyepieces (especially heavier ones) also makes me lose track quickly of the object I'm looking at, because by the time I change it the star has moved and I may bump the scope in the process.

 

I've collimated my scope last year and I do tests on Polaris every now and then and it seems to hold up - so I don't think that's the issue. Like you and most people said - darker skies, and improving my seeing conditions will help first and foremost.

 

Also, I wouldn't hesitate to invest in some better glass.  You've been using the stock eyepieces for about a year.  That's enough time to know how they perform.  While a premium eyepiece may not make a "gee whiz" difference in the image, it will make a noticeable improvement, and (depending on the eyepiece you choose) will make the viewing easier on your eye.  

 

If you can, get to a club outreach event in your area.  Bring your scope and eyepieces.  You will likely find someone willing to let you try a premium eyepiece in your scope so you can judge for yourself how to proceed.

 

Happy hunting!

Dave 

Yeah I've made the light shield, but good idea on the reaching out to folks in my local club - haven't done that yet but will do now, doesn't hurt to test a few EPs before investing in them! 

 

 

9 minutes later my scope is mounted, collimated, and EPs outside. That’s the great thing about these scopes.

 

Alright that was fun. I haven’t looked for anything I couldn’t see yet. M5, M13, M15, M92, M57, M27, M31, M10, M12, M3 all easy to find in the middle of bortle 7 Toledo, OH with a full moon on the horizon and a 6” f5. None of the GCs resolved, I thought M92 and M15 were going to give it up but nope. M57 took magnification very well, up to 5mm before I started losing detail. The inside of the ring was clearly visible with the 10mm. M27 was pretty faint but not too bad. M31 is visible at 26* altitude, very fuzzy. Also found M3, that one was tough at 27* altitude. Add M10 to the list, very faint against an almost bluish sky. And then add M12, toughest one to spot so far I think. Well I just realized I was using a 10mm for a finder on M10 and M12 so that didn’t help the cause, but still found them. M3 was only 25* altitude, easily spotted once I switched finder EPs smile.gif.

LOL - this was a great addition to the thread. You hit the jackpot! Glad to hear you had a great night. M27 and M57 were the first ones I saw last year, and hoping I will get a good look at them in dark skies. Them and M13 are what I'm focusing on - as well as hunting some new ones I am researching for later this week! Might have a few easy doubles/planets as well in the meantime.

 

 

Thank you all again!


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#41 Stonius

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 11:54 PM

I skimmed this thread, but I'm not sure anyone touched on on one of the most important things when learning to see things on the very edge of your ability, and that is training / experience, and this doesn't even require a telescope or dark skies.

 

You need to be relaxed and to have a good look in the eyepiece. Many things on the very edge of visibility take a while for you to be sure they really are there.

 

Here's something you can try at home. Pick a star, or a constellation you know you will be able to find in a good start atlas / planisphere program. Then try to find as many objects stars right on the edge of visibility as you can. Sometimes you won't even get a twinkle, but only a single 'twink' - not enough to be sure. You hover around that area until a few minutes later, you get another twink. Over time you become more and more certain there is a star there. Mark it down  or remember it. Keep going till you get bored.

 

Then look at the star atlas and see what your naked eye limiting magnitude is, what stars you managed to pick up, what ones you missed.

 

This whole process can take a good hour if you want. It's definitely not a one minute job.

 

Then transfer those skills to the eyepiece and you'll be amazed how much more you pick up, even on diffuse objects.

 

Hope that helps

 

Markus


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#42 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 12:05 AM

A larger aperture will improve views of DSOs to a greater degree than premium eyepieces will.  However, traveling to darker skies works even better.  

 

Having said that, there are a number of DSOs that can be seen under light-polluted skies.  There's a section on urban astronomy towards the bottom of my post (#22) at

https://www.cloudyni...mers/?p=5184287 that you may find useful.  There are also sections on various books, observing guides, star-hopping, stellar atlases, planispheres, planetarium programs, astronomy apps, deep-sky object observing, lists of worthwhile celestial objects to observe, binocular astronomy, and other related topics.

 

As Markus mentioned, spending more and more time at the eyepiece will eventually result in attaining increased observing skills.


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#43 Tony Flanders

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 04:59 AM

M13 and M27 are my go to targets to start my dark site nights with the 10” right now. I’m about to get my 6” out to see if I can even see M13 in bortle 8 skies tonight. I doubt it.

In view of the fact that I can see M13 from my local city park (typically Bortle 8) with a 6x15 monocular, I don't think you'll have any trouble at all spotting it with a 6-inch scope. In fact I can resolve a few stars in M13 from said park with my 7-incher, so I have little doubt it's also possible with a 6-incher. But it does require high magnification and averted vision.


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#44 AstroVPK

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 08:38 AM

Even after traveling to darker skies, I wouldn't rush out to buy better eyepieces. Remember that the Herschel discovered ~ 2500 objects using a 157x eyepiece that had a miserable 15' field-of-view. I would invest in the items that make the dark sky trips easier to do - observing chair, perhaps a camp table, good tent, sleeping bag, etc... Find local astronomers who are willing to drive out with you on a regular basis (in separate cars). Identify a selection of good sites to go to.

After you have a monthly dark sky observing trip cadence going, look into eyepieces. I recommend a 10mm - 13mm 100 degree AFOV eyepiece - it can be quite the workhorse, especially when hunting for galaxies. I think there are a number of reasonably priced options available.
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#45 LtBrowncoat

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 08:41 AM

I skimmed this thread, but I'm not sure anyone touched on on one of the most important things when learning to see things on the very edge of your ability, and that is training / experience, and this doesn't even require a telescope or dark skies.

 

Here's something you can try at home. Pick a star, or a constellation you know you will be able to find in a good start atlas / planisphere program. Then try to find as many objects stars right on the edge of visibility as you can. Sometimes you won't even get a twinkle, but only a single 'twink' - not enough to be sure. You hover around that area until a few minutes later, you get another twink. Over time you become more and more certain there is a star there. Mark it down  or remember it. Keep going till you get bored.

 

Then look at the star atlas and see what your naked eye limiting magnitude is, what stars you managed to pick up, what ones you missed.

 

Hope that helps

 

Markus

Thanks for the tip Markus - I have been pointing my telescope around Cassiopeia, Sag and the Summer Triangle and finding stars that I couldn’t see with my naked eye, but doing that with a star chart and noting what I’m seeing will definitely help. 

 

A larger aperture will improve views of DSOs to a greater degree than premium eyepieces will.  However, traveling to darker skies works even better.  

 

Having said that there are a number of DSOs that can be seen under light-polluted skies.  There's a section on urban astronomy towards the bottom of my post (#22) at

https://www.cloudyni...mers/?p=5184287 that you may find useful.  There are also sections on various books, observing guides, star-hopping, stellar atlases, planispheres, planetarium programs, astronomy apps, deep-sky object observing, lists of worthwhile celestial objects to observe, binocular astronomy, and other related topics.

 

As Markus mentioned, spending more and more time at the eyepiece will eventually result in attaining increased observing skills.

Thanks Dave! I’ve actually seen this post and had it bookmarked! I have been using Stellarium and the Nightwatch book to help, but I think I have to re-visit the urban astronomy section and remind myself of some tips - and focus on resources about DSO’s.

 

In view of the fact that I can see M13 from my local city park (typically Bortle 8) with a 6x15 monocular, I don't think you'll have any trouble at all spotting it with a 6-inch scope. In fact I can resolve a few stars in M13 from said park with my 7-incher, so I have little doubt it's also possible with a 6-incher. But it does require high magnification and averted vision.

Yup! I’ve seen quite a few nebula/star clusters from my back yard / park (Bortle 7-9) even with lights around. M13, the Ring and Dumbbell nebulas, Bode’s and Cigar galaxies, etc. even with my 20mm (~37.5x) eyepiece. I just wanted to view more details in the clusters / nebula, and as per the general consensus dark skies, comfort, and experience really go a long way.

 

I’ll keep at it and will be pushing, thank you all again! Hopefully can let you know how this weekend goes (if the weather is on my side lol).


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#46 rgk901

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 09:45 AM

Last night was out looking at planets and thought I re-visit M13 in the 6"...

 

Found it using my 25mm (30x) as a small fuzz ball.

 

Jumped to 5mm (150x) and initially saw a larger fuzz ball smile.gif ... than as I continued to observe after maybe like 30 seconds my averted visions started picking out little diamonds and the fuzz ball started to get larger. After a few minutes of following it around I started to see many stars direct vision and many more with averted vision.

 

Also found core of m31 and that of course is just a fuzzy spec from here.

 

Planets were nice, Saturn showing banding with moments of Cassini division showing. (also 150x)

 

Jupiter showed very nice colors and banding as well... (also 150x)

 

So probably an hour with Saturn/Jupiter/M13/M31... Scratched the itch for sure.

 

SO keep at it!! With experience, city viewing is definitely possible, but keep expectations in check smile.gif And for the real show visit a darker site every now and again !


Edited by rgk901, 18 August 2022 - 09:46 AM.

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#47 Chad7531

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 06:00 PM

Last night was out looking at planets and thought I re-visit M13 in the 6"...

Found it using my 25mm (30x) as a small fuzz ball.

Jumped to 5mm (150x) and initially saw a larger fuzz ball smile.gif ... than as I continued to observe after maybe like 30 seconds my averted visions started picking out little diamonds and the fuzz ball started to get larger. After a few minutes of following it around I started to see many stars direct vision and many more with averted vision.

Also found core of m31 and that of course is just a fuzzy spec from here.

Planets were nice, Saturn showing banding with moments of Cassini division showing. (also 150x)

Jupiter showed very nice colors and banding as well... (also 150x)

So probably an hour with Saturn/Jupiter/M13/M31... Scratched the itch for sure.

SO keep at it!! With experience, city viewing is definitely possible, but keep expectations in check smile.gif And for the real show visit a darker site every now and again !

Slacker. :)

“Alright that was fun. I haven’t looked for anything I couldn’t see yet. M5, M13, M15, M92, M57, M27, M31, M10, M12, M3 all easy to find in the middle of bortle 7 Toledo, OH with a full moon on the horizon and a 6” f5. None of the GCs resolved, I thought M92 and M15 were going to give it up but nope. M57 took magnification very well, up to 5mm before I started losing detail. The inside of the ring was clearly visible with the 10mm. M27 was pretty faint but not too bad. M31 is visible at 26* altitude, very fuzzy. Also found M3, that one was tough at 27* altitude. Add M10 to the list, very faint against an almost bluish sky. And then add M12, toughest one to spot so far I think. Well I just realized I was using a 10mm for a finder on M10 and M12 so that didn’t help the cause, but still found them. M3 was only 25* altitude, easily spotted once I switched finder EPs :).”

Edited by Chad7531, 18 August 2022 - 06:01 PM.


#48 rgk901

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 06:03 PM

I know... weak sauce! I will try to do better next time!
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#49 Chad7531

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 06:25 PM

I know... weak sauce! I will try to do better next time!


My weekend just started and I need to get my fix, the next dark site with the 10” isn’t until next weekend. Any challenges for the 6” tonight in bortle 7? Maybe the veil? I know I want to check out m57 again.

#50 rgk901

rgk901

    Viking 1

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  • Posts: 896
  • Joined: 28 Apr 2021
  • Loc: Beautiful Bortle 9 Chicago Skies

Posted 18 August 2022 - 06:34 PM

hit Sagittarius and it's nebula's. have your uhc handy
  • Chad7531 likes this


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