81 replies to this topic

[rrpallechio]

have you verified that all your cables (in particular, the mount to camera cable) are in good condition

and aren't experiencing intermittent connections during the mount gyrations?

Visually the cables look fine but I haven't done any testing of them. But Celestron has issued another RMA and I'm packing it up and sending it to them this week. They will get the camera, HC, mount and power adapter and they have said they will attempt to recreate the problem. The first time it went in I assumed they would be recreating the problem, but after I contacted them about the problem continuing to happen they said they couldn't confirm that they had recreated the problem.

[mlord]

I cannot see them finding anything wrong with that mount.  All of the symptoms point to software on the device running SkyPortal/SkySafari, because that is the device where all of the alignment logic and decisions are done.

 

And I believe you have said already that the mount with hand-controller work perfectly together.

[rrpallechio]

I cannot see them finding anything wrong with that mount.  All of the symptoms point to software on the device running SkyPortal/SkySafari, because that is the device where all of the alignment logic and decisions are done.

 

And I believe you have said already that the mount with hand-controller work perfectly together.

 

I don't know enough about how all this works to argue the point with either you or Celestron.  But I did listen to you and I downloaded SkyPortal onto the Samsung Galaxy phone that I used before I bought my iPhone and iPad. I tested on all three, including the Samsung, and got the same result on all three. The iPhone and iPad are linked by my Apple ID, and what shows up on one often shows up on the other, so I can see that an argument can be made that there was some kind of cross contamination between the two devices. I don't know how reasonable that argument is, but it can be made. But it also happened on the Samsung Galaxy. So that argues against the problem being in the device running the app.

 

But ... using CPWI, I got two successful plate solves in a row using  Starsense alignment before it got lost in the trees. When I tried to do a manual align with CPWI, the HC froze, which also happened between alignment tests on the phones and iPad, and that is a new behavior.

 

I respect your opinion, and I listen to your advice. But having the same failure with a device that had never been used for an alignment before, with a fresh install of SkyPortal ... I don't know what to think.
 

[rrpallechio]

My StarSense camera, mount, hand control and power adapter are at Celestron now.

[rrpallechio]

Well, the mount, hand control and StarSense Camera were returned to me. Celestron said they repaired it and it passed all tests. They didn't say exactly what they repaired. Maybe they found something they missed the first time. But Rod from their support team stayed in touch with me and told me he did the tests and everything worked fine.

 

So tonight I took it out, set it up, and using SkyPortal on my iPad went through multiple iterations of alignment and calibration. And it worked. Every. Single. Time.

 

And I was able to view Mars in the Beehive Cluster with my wife, son, daughter and grandson!

 

Was everything perfect? No. That part about multiple iterations of everything ... after doing the first alignment I started a calibration. And then forgot I was doing a calibration before I finished it. Twice. I did that twice. I blame my excitement for having everything working again and my eagerness to get over to Mars.

 

And in case I haven't mentioned it before ... I hate daylight savings time.

 

And, this week I took delivery of two ThermaCell EX90 Rechargeable Mosquito Repellers. We set them up tonight and they kept the mosquitos away! My wife was very happy about that.

So all in all, a good night. My Evolution works now. My family got to see Mars in the Beehive cluster, and no one got mosquito bites.

Edited by rrpallechio, 03 June 2023 - 02:20 AM.

[b079]

Good deals. Would have loved to see that. I'm still working to fine tune my alignment myself. Even without calibration, usually my target is within view with a 19mm panoptic. It's not perfect, but the starsense was definitely worth the timesaving and reduced frustration. Now, if things get too far off, I have no qualms realigning while I take a wander or organize my gear. I use mlord's homebrew for gps, so pretty much just have to turn it on and walk away for a moment.

Edited by b079, 03 June 2023 - 03:25 AM.

[rrpallechio]

Went out again tonight. Took the cover off the telescope and leveled the OTA. Got into SkyPortal on my iPad and clicked on Connect and Align. The telescope moved to the first position and reported it couldn't find enough stars. Moved to the next one and reported 13 stars, plate solve failed.. Moved to the next position, reported 76 stars, plate solve failed. Moved to the next position, couldn't find enough stars.

 

My heart was falling. My wife came out and asked how it was going. I said the camera can't find any stars. She said, "Camera?" Yes, I said. The camera. I went to the OTA, patted the camera to show her, and felt the cap. I hadn't taken the lens cap off the camera. Took it off, restarted the alignment, and it worked perfectly.

 

I'm 70 and I've told my kids that when the time comes, in their judgement, that I shouldn't be driving, to take my keys away. It may be time to have my telescope taken away

[Ice Cube]

time to take the lens covers away!

 

interesting that it was able to find any stars with the cover on 

Edited by Ice Cube, 04 June 2023 - 08:55 AM.

[mlord]

"Hot pixels" in the Camera.

[mink]

...hadn't taken the lens cap off the camera..

At least nothing fried.

 

Having a mind like a "steel sieve," and having done this several times. I respectfully share some accumulated prevention strategies from my brief nightly forays.

 

I pretty much always have to setup and tear down, as my house is only good for testing, being in a canyon with trees and power lines.

 

- After several years, just thought of taping my SETUP CHECKLIST and brief instruction reminders to the TRIPOD legs. Being 2" in diameter, a surprising amount of info fits on those puppies. Put some clear packing tape over printer paper for quick water proofing. Check how they read in red light. Saves having to pull them out or look up. Ugly, but functional. If it works for pilots ...

- Do the same for GPS coordinates of usual remote sites, in case GPS isn't working

- I've put YELLOW electricians tape around the sides of the StarSense Camera lens cap. I've also written in BLACK, 'NO SOLAR.' Haven't done the spotting scope yet, but might, as it also makes it easier to find when packing up for the night. Mark differently to speed up packing.

- Loom cables and label ends for their proper ports. 

- I even label which Tripod legs are the North or South legs (AZ vs EQ), cable routing, gear positions and power box positioning on the tripod platform. Having to rethink, slows me down. I leave the mount attached to the tripod and built a wheeled cradle/hand truck to move it with.

 - White electrical tape, with Milwaukee markers, covered with clear packing tape make great non-smear labels.

 - Plug any unused ports with non-functioning plugs so they can't be accidentally used.

(I had planned to block the Autoguider port on my Atlas Pro since I never used it, but didn't quite get around to it -- Despite having labels, I was chatting with someone and the hand plugged the STARsense camera cable into that port. That blew the Motor control board. Bad, hand; bad hand. Don't understand why the hand did that as have never used it. Orion is fixing it and a club member loaned me his that he isn't using since he's got a Unistellar Evscope now. First thing done was a blank RJ12 into the Autoguider port. In fact, there is one in my mount that's at Orion right now. I start installing the cable snake now with the STARsense camera on the Scope and work down.

 

Kindly submitted

 

Cheers

 

 

[rrpallechio]

@mink, I like the way you think. I have white reflective tape I bought to mark my tripod legs and my black observing chair. I can use it for labels too.

[rrpallechio]

Oh man. Tonight ...

 

My routine is to power up the Evolution and start the alignment, leaving my phone on a table outside while I go take care of whatever else i need to take care of. Almost always, by the time I get outside, the alignment is complete. But not tonight.

 

Took the cover off the telescope, pointed the scope east and made sure the OTA was level, connected to it and started the alignment. Went back into the house to get hand warmers and the red light and to let my wife know I was starting.

 

Got outside and looked at the phone and it said 0 alignment points. Trying another. Got to  the other, plate solve failed. Will try at another location. I saw where it pointed. No clouds, no trees, I could see the stars. Plate solve failed. Oh God, not again.

 

I had forgotten to take the cap off the Starsense Autoguider camera. Dumb dumb dumb dumb. I'd make a checklist but I'm not sure I'd ever look at it ):

[roetbr]

I have had the original problem that started this thread, StarSense error on the second align when using SkySafari 7, a couple times. Things seemed to be better for a while after I replaced the Celestron Wi-Fi adapter with the HBG3 (which has a lot other benefits, too). But a couple nights ago the problem returned, and nothing seemed to help. I disconnected the camera and hand controller and plugged in my original hand controller, thinking I would just do a manual alignment with SkySafari. But that kept failing, too.  I gave up and called it a night. 
 

The next night I tried again with StarSense and had no luck. But I thought to try SkyPortal, and that worked, so I figured my hardware was good. I reset my iPad and tried again. This time SkySafari got into some weird mode that was wonky. SkySafari was better on my iPhone but still not working with StarSense. I ended up deleting the app and reinstalling it on both. After that, all seems to be better, I could align no problem. I did not try alignment without StarSense, but I expect that would have worked, too. 
 

I am hoping SkySafari does not fail again when I am in the boonies at GSSP this week, as it is my default for observation lists and logs. But I will use SkyPortal if I have to, though it is more limited. 

[roetbr]

An update: After working once, the next time a new alignment is done, the same failure occurs. Deleting and reloading the app starts the cycle again. I have opened a support case for SkySafari 7.

Edited by roetbr, 10 July 2024 - 03:58 PM.

[roetbr]

Another update: I tried again last night and had the same problem, but observed the following. After the alignment failed, I reset the telescope and prepared to do an alignment using the hand controller. However, I noted the time was wrong, despite the GPS being connected and the LED on it being on. The hand controller also was not recognizing the GPS. I used the hand controller to scan for accessories and recognize the connected GPS, then use the GPS for time and location data. The time and location were shown correctly.

 

After that, I tried using SkySafari to do a StarSense manual alignment, and that was successful.

 

Note that during all of this the time on the SkySafari screen was reported accurately as the local time. It appears that StarSense is using time and location from the hand controller to do the alignment. If this is intentional, it would be good if a step were added in the SkySafari alignment process to have the user set or check this, or for the hand controller time and location to be reported and compared to what the app gets from the iPhone/iPad.

 

I added this to my support case. I have had no response to the case for a couple days.

Edited by roetbr, 11 July 2024 - 08:52 AM.

[mlord]

After that, I tried using SkySafari to do a StarSense manual alignment, and that was successful.

..

It appears that StarSense is using time and location from the hand controller to do the alignment.

SkySafari is NOT using anything from an onboard GPS or hand-controller, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.  I do have evidence of the opposite though.  Instead of guessing, I actually trace the AUX bus messaging between the various devices for hard evidence.  SkySafari NEVER accesses a mount-connected GPS, and it never accesses a hand-controller for obtaining time/location information.

 

SkySafari works perfectly well with StarSense (both flavours) even without a hand-controller attached to the mount.

 

EDIT:  From reading your (roetbr) posts in this thread, it seems that you always have a hand-controller of some kind connected when using SkySafari.  So.. simplify things, and get rid of the hand-controller before powering-on.  If you also have any other unused accessories, eg. a separate SkySync/GPS-only adapter, get rid of that as well.  GPS as part of the HBG3 accessory is fine/harmless (everything connected to a single HBG3 still counts as just one single item in total on the AUX bus).

 

The issues here can be due to a number of things, including (quite commonly) too many things plugged in, which can result in signal integrity issues with many mounts, especially the SE series.

 

EDIT: As for the hand-controller "not seeing/using" the GPS, this is a "feature" of some versions of Celestron hand-controller firmware:  If the hand-controller and mount are ever powered on without a GPS connected, then some hand-controller/firmware combos will then TURN OFF the setting for "using GPS".  It then stays OFF until the next time the user turns it back ON.

 

Confusing as all get out, but that's how they do it.  This is compounded by them also misnaming the option as "Enable GPS" rather than the more correct "Use GPS".  The GPS is always "enabled", or turned on, but never does anything unless the hand-controller is set for "use GPS" and then queries the GPS for information.

Edited by mlord, 11 July 2024 - 09:25 AM.

[mlord]

SkySafari is NOT using anything from an onboard GPS or hand-controller, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.

Anyone with an HBG3 can verify this themselves, too, using a procedure like this:

 

1. Set the HBG3's (blue) MUSB switch to the DOWN position, closest to the HBG3 PCB.

2. Connect the HBG3 to a PC using a suitable USB data cable.  Also connect it to the mount (AUX).

3. From the PC, connect to the HBG3 using something like PuTTY over the USB/Serial connection (115200,8N1).

4. Hit ENTER in that session, and first issue the 't' command to get rid of the blue-blink test:   t

5. Then issue this command:    trace GPS

6. Now power-on the mount, run SkySafari, and observe whether or not the GPS is accessed by "SW" (software).

 

For seeing if SkySafari ever "uses" a hand-controller, first identify the model of connected hand-controller:

  -- StarSense hand-controller uses SSHC for tracing.

  -- Nexstar+ hand-controller uses HC5 for tracing.

  -- Nexstar* (V4) hand-controller is HC4

 

Now do the same sequence as above, but rather than tracing the GPS, trace your model of hand-controller instead.  Eg.

 

   trace SSHC

 

Alternatively, if you want to see a LOT(!) more output, just use the 'v' (verbose) command instead of 'trace':

 

  v

 

For double the output, one can include the WiFi messaging as well, by also then issuing the 'a' (all) command:

 

  a

 

Repeating the 'v' or 'a' commands toggles them back OFF again.

Entering the 'trace' command without any parameters will turn that OFF as well.

And, yes, there is a 'help' command. 

 

Cheers

Edited by mlord, 11 July 2024 - 09:48 AM.

[roetbr]

Mark -- Thanks for the comments and advice. The overall guidance to reduce the number of connected devices is appreciated. A few follow-ups:

• I had used the hand controller for the physical buttons to move the scope (I dislike the SkySafari soft buttons). But now that I have your HBC3 and a nunchuk, I like that much better. I did not realize the hand controller was not needed. Now I will run again without it.
• My theory is not that SkySafari uses the hand controller time and location, but that StarSense uses the time and location from the hand controller when it is connected and uses that when doing plate solving. Removing the hand controller should solve that, too. This theory assumes plate solving is done in the hand controller (or camera) and SkySafari gets the completed solution from that. But I have no knowledge of the communications between all the devices on the AUX bus, so I defer to your expertise there.
• Good to know about the GPS/hand controller setting "feature". That would explain what I observed, as I went to GSSP last week and had disconnected everything for packing and travel.

Edited by roetbr, 11 July 2024 - 09:59 AM.

[mlord]

You'll have to be more specific when referring to "StarSense".  The choices currently are "StarSense AutoAlign" (SSAA), and "StarSense AutoGuider" (SSAG).  The former (SSAA, a dumb camera) never needs to know anything about time or location.  The latter (SSAG, with built-in plate-solving) is however sent time/location prior to use, either from the SSHC or from an app.

 

I now use SSAG here myself, but only rarely is a hand-controller ever connected.  Like you, I have no need of one with the HBG3 connected.

Edited by mlord, 11 July 2024 - 10:06 AM.

[roetbr]

FWIW, here is my message to Simulation Curriculum (SkySafari) support from early this morning and their response that I received a few minutes ago:

• [Me] I tried again last night and had the same problem, but observed the following. After the alignment failed, I reset the telescope and prepared to do an alignment using the hand controller. However, I noted the time was wrong, despite the GPS being connected and the LED on it being on. The hand controller also was not recognizing the GPS. I used the hand controller to scan for accessories and recognize the GPS, then use the GPS for time and location data. The time and location were shown correctly.
  After that, I tried using SkySafari to do a StarSense manual alignment, which was successful.
  Note that during all of this the time on the SkySafari screen was reported accurately as the local time. It appears that StarSense is using time and location from the hand controller to do the alignment. If this is intentional, it would be good if a step were added in the alignment process to have the user set or check this, or for the hand controller time and location to be reported and compared to what the app gets from the phone/iPad.
• [Them] Excellent that you have sourced the origin of this issue.  I will report your concern to developers.

The developers may say I am wrong.

[roetbr]

You'll have to be more specific when referring to "StarSense".  The choices currently are "StarSense AutoAlign" (SSAA), and "StarSense AutoGuider" (SSAG).  The former (SSAA, a dumb camera) never needs to know anything about time or location.  The latter (SSAG, with built-in plate-solving) is however sent time/location prior to use, either from the SSHC or from an app.

I use StarSense AutoAlign (SSAA), which includes a specific hand controller and a (dumb) camera. So either the hand controller is doing the plate solving and SkySafari is using that solution, or SkySafari does the plate solving. From your comments, I presume it is the latter.

[mlord]

With SSAA, the "controller" does the plate-solving.  Where "controller" can be any ONE of:  SkyPortal, SkySafari+, SkySafariPro, CPWI, or the StarSense-HandController (SSHC).

[roetbr]

Thanks. I'll run it again without hand controller and GPS plugged in.

 

Is this explained in the documentation somewhere that I overlooked (highly likely)? Or did you have to reverse engineer it all?

[rrpallechio]

@mlord ... seriously dude, Celestron should put you on their payroll

[mlord]

Is this explained in the documentation somewhere that I overlooked (highly likely)? Or did you have to reverse engineer it all?

I don't think it is explained by Celestron.

 

There was/is a lot of inaccurate "wisdom" in these forums (aka. WRONG information based on pure guessing) when I arrived, and after getting fed up with reading nonsense over and over, I've made a point to research how things Really Work^tm.