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EP buyers remorse

Beginner Dob Eyepieces Reflector Visual
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#1 raptorvet1

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:24 PM

Hello,  

    I am having a bit of EP buyers remorse. When I purchased my 8" dob I had it in mind that I would eventually save up to purchase quality EP once a year rather than purchasing pricier scope with mediocre EP. Over the past few months I have decided to start building that EP collection one at a time.  My goal was to eventually replace the straw like 9mm plossl and the mediocre 30mm Superview the scope came with, but they're fine for now. I've been attending various astronomy group sessions and had the opportunity to compare various EP brands through my f/6 scope.  Some EP were OK and some really wow me.  One I was impressed with was the TV Nagler line, specifically the 13mm and the low mag ES.  I went ahead and purchased a 13mm TV Nagler T6, since that is the EP I remembered thinking "this is amazing" when I viewed it.  I have not viewed everyone brand available to compare.  But, now that I've purchased it (waiting for arrival), I discussed this purchase with a friend and he offered some tough advice...that I should cancel or return my 13mm purchase and instead use that money for a few cheaper EPs instead of a single TV EP.  He mentioned it's like putting higher octane gasoline into a cheap car expecting it to drive like a Ferrari (fighting words)Jedi.gif (as I protectively cover my AD8's ears).  But, in all seriousness, I was planning to acquire 3-4 QUALITY EP collection over a few years rather than QUANTITY.  First is this true that TV EP are so superior to a Dobsonian that my eyes would not be getting the full experience as someone who has let's say maybe a 20" scope?  And if my scope truly can't appreciate that optical difference in quality EP, then what EP's would the CN community suggest as the upper quality limit for a simple f/6 dob?  Thank you kindly for any and all advice. 

 

Wishing for clear dark skies! 

 

 

Mike



#2 Alex Swartzinski

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:32 PM

I think it's true that buying a variety of decent quality eyepieces over one really good focal length has some value. 

 

Having said this, there's really only 3-4 focal lengths that are commonly used, so buying nice eyepieces in those focal lengths is a good idea.

 

Nice eyepieces are good in any scope. I really enjoy my 14mm Delos in all my scopes from my 50mm RACI to 15" Obsession. Can you get by with less on an 8" f/6? Sure, but having a really nice eyepiece benefits any scope even if the differences are small. It's important to realize that if you are a newer observer than TV eyepieces won't be some magical solution to seeing more or sharper images, especially at f/6.

 

Is it worth keeping?

 

It comes down to finances and what you're happy with. I would probably try out that 13mm several times before making any decisions. Worst case you can always sell it here on CN and only pay shipping. I've done this before when I bought a 35mm Panoptic but found that it wasn't worth the money of keeping that focal length, so I sold it and the $20 was worth checking it out. TV eyepieces are always in demand.

 

For future eyepieces regardless of brand, check out our classifieds to save some money too.


Edited by Alex Swartzinski, 23 September 2022 - 03:37 PM.

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#3 Neanderthal

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:33 PM

My 2 cents - stick to your original plan. waytogo.gif   What will happen, is if you purchase a cheap(er) EP, you will always wonder what you may be missing vs the Nagler. Wether your scope is a 60mm refractor or a 30" Dob, a quality EP is still a quality EP and connects your eyes to the sky. That TeleVue EP is a very, very nice choice, treat yourself. smile.gif


Edited by Neanderthal, 23 September 2022 - 03:34 PM.

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#4 rexowner

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:33 PM

i have Naglers and have compared them with others with the same focal length and AFOV.

Not the 13mm, but I recently compared the 16mm Nagler Type 6 with a $99 eyepiece.

The differences were obvious at f/3.75, f/5.4 and  f/6.3; you would not need sophisticated

or experienced eyes to see the difference, so at f/6, pretty sure you would also see the

difference.  Have not had the chance to pop the $99 eyepiece into my f/15 Mak

yet, but I think that is likely to be a good pairing, and one where the additional

cost of the Nagler would not be justified.

 

IMO, your philosophy of a few great eyepiecs is a good one.


Edited by rexowner, 23 September 2022 - 03:34 PM.

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#5 Ihtegla Sar

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:37 PM

You have an 8" f/6 dob manufactured by GSO. That is a respectable scope. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Unless there is something wrong with your particular scope (which at this point I have no reason to believe), it should put up some good views. GSO generally makes good mirrors.

The difference between a premium eyepiece like a Nagler and an ordinary plossl is the Nagler will give a wider field of view with better correction at the edges of the field, which is something you can enjoy in any scope including your 8" GSO dob.
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#6 RAKing

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:37 PM

Wow!  I have had a couple of Econo-Dobs and both of them had very good mirrors.  The main thing you have to learn (as the "owner/operator") is how to use that mirror.  If it's collimated accurately and acclimated - you can easily enjoy a premium eyepiece or two in it.

 

And as time goes on, you will learn to appreciate that better view.

 

Don't let anyone rain on your parade - your plan is good. waytogo.gif

 

Ron


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#7 nighthoek

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:45 PM

I have an 8" f/5 dob that I built.  I have used a 35mm Panoptic, 20mm Nagler (my favorite), as well as the 16mm, 11mm, and 7mm Naglers.  They ALL delivered great images, but the view was always best from a dark location.  However, I would use it for visual observing often from my very light polluted skies in northern New Jersey.

 

Quality is better than quantity.  I'd typically only use 3 eyepieces during a session, with the 35mm Pan, and the 20mm and 11mm Naglers rounding out the session.  The 16 is amazing, but not a brig change from the 20mm at that focal lengths.

 

I hope that this helps.


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#8 Space_Race_T.J.

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:45 PM

Stick with your plan.

 

I did the same thing, slowly acquiring all my eyepieces over about 4 years. You'll learn which models and focal lengths suite your eye(s) and viewing habits the best. 

 

Good luck and Clear skies,

 

T.J.

 

 

 

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#9 BoldAxis1967

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:46 PM

I have an 8 inch f6 dob and my 13 type 6 Nagler is terrific, you will not be disappointed with the view.  This is a much used EP, terrific on open clusters in my dob.

 

As others above have commented, use it several times before making a final verdict. 

 

If you can afford to buy premium EPs then do so and stick with your plan, but there is nothing wrong with the astro-tech 60 degree EPs (Paradigms), they are good EPs.  You can also buy EPs on the used market and save a few dollars.

 

30mm Superview is certainly usable. 

 

L.


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#10 sevenofnine

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:54 PM

You will get lots of opinions on this...good luck sorting it out scratchhead2.gif You and your friend are both right. How can that be?? The TV Nagler's will show more in a "Ferrari" type scope but it will also give you great views in your 8" f/6 GSO mirrored scope. If it's within your budget then I say stay the course and buy a few really good ones. If it's a painful stretch then cancel the order and buy a handful of Astro-Tech's. That's what I did and no regrets. When and if I ever get a custom scope then I'll get TV eyepieces to go with it...but that's me.  

 

p.s. A very experienced observer once commented that commercial grade scopes are very good under average night skies. He saw little difference between commercial grade and customs. Where you will see the difference with customs is when the "seeing" is excellent with very transparent skies. Then those scopes pull way ahead of the pack. They are capable of "stupid high powers" in his words wink.gif


Edited by sevenofnine, 24 September 2022 - 12:02 AM.

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#11 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:58 PM

Mike:

 

This is the way I see it:

 

Consider two eyepieces, the 13 mm T6 Nagler and the 12 mm Astro-Tech Paradigm. One costs $335, one costs $65.  I have both these eyepieces. I use them in a number of scopes including my 10 inch F/5 "commerical" Dob.

 

Comparing them side by side, the Nagler has a wider, sharper field of view. The 12 mm Paradigm is still quite sharp across the field and it's 60° field still feels generous. The Paradigm has somewhat more eye relief, it may be a bit more comfortable.

 

Out under the night sky in an 8 inch F/6 Dob, you'll see essentially the same objects in nearly the same way in both eyepieces. The Nagler will be a little more perfect, an aesthetic consideration, but as an observer, these are very similar eyepieces.

 

For the price of the 13 mm Nagler, you could buy five Astro-Tech Paradigms. Add a 2X Barlow and you could be pretty much set, you would have good quality eyepieces that cover all your needs.

 

If you buy the Nagler, you will have one very good eyepiece but for the coming next few years, you will not have the eyepieces you need to observe the planets, doubles stars, globular clusters among others.

 

So, my recommendation is to build a good basic set of eyepieces first and then slowly begin to build a fancier set, if you feel the need to. I have a set of Paradigms, a set of Naglers. I often choose the Paradigms, they don't give up much to the Naglers.

 

You can buy good eyepieces for $65.  

 

Jon


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#12 betacygni

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 03:59 PM

Not only did you select a good eyepiece, but also what will likely be your most used focal length. And you’re smarter than most of us, you tried it out in your scope first!

Your scope is very good, a will match nicely with the Nagler. Cost doesn’t have a direct correlation to performance in all cases. To get a scope that would outperform it you’d have to spend thousands. Good set of a few higher end eyepieces is the best way to spend your funds for now, no question. Eyepieces will be useful with all scopes you end up owning, and if you’re hooked on astronomy, you’ll likely own more down the road.

Edited by betacygni, 23 September 2022 - 04:01 PM.

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#13 Jim45157

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:03 PM

i tried the apm 100 deg and have enjoyed them a lot maybe not as good as TV but very good sure is a lot cheaper 


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#14 Neanderthal

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:05 PM

That's sound advice by Jon. I started with a couple of the Paradigms (8mm & 12mm) myself, and really liked them. But ...... my wife needs to wear eyeglasses and she just couldn't make those work for her. I got a pretty good deal on a couple used Morph's and she was happy with those, so...... if you do not observe with glasses, you might give the Paradigms a shot and then decide if you want to try something else later. You pay a lot for a well-corrected wide FOV EP. The new AstroTech UWA's just arrived - maybe keep up with the reports on them. I have the 28 UWA, it's a keeper.


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#15 FRANKVSTAR

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:12 PM

My thoughts, from the moment I got my first telescope I had always wondered and thought that if I had a better eyepiece and may get a sharper and clearer view of the object. So for years I waited until I finally was able to get what most say is the best(A TELEVUE) eyepiece. Granted It was just a start, but I did notice it was much better than the other eyepieces I had, so saying that I feel I do now for sure know that what I am seeing in my telescope is the best view the scope can accomplish at that time.

 From the beginning I have read that you don't want to spend good money on any telescope and use an inferior eyepiece with that scope.

Well now I have the best and the only thing to improve on the the scope itself !!!!!!

 

 p.s  not to mention some other things that I need to get better at which has nothing to do with the telescope or eyepiece per say, but works in conjunction with them.


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#16 iseegeorgesstar

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:16 PM

Hello,  

    I am having a bit of EP buyers remorse. When I purchased my 8" dob I had it in mind that I would eventually save up to purchase quality EP once a year rather than purchasing pricier scope with mediocre EP. Over the past few months I have decided to start building that EP collection one at a time.  My goal was to eventually replace the straw like 9mm plossl and the mediocre 30mm Superview the scope came with, but they're fine for now. I've been attending various astronomy group sessions and had the opportunity to compare various EP brands through my f/6 scope.  Some EP were OK and some really wow me.  One I was impressed with was the TV Nagler line, specifically the 13mm and the low mag ES.  I went ahead and purchased a 13mm TV Nagler T6, since that is the EP I remembered thinking "this is amazing" when I viewed it.  I have not viewed everyone brand available to compare.  But, now that I've purchased it (waiting for arrival), I discussed this purchase with a friend and he offered some tough advice...that I should cancel or return my 13mm purchase and instead use that money for a few cheaper EPs instead of a single TV EP.  He mentioned it's like putting higher octane gasoline into a cheap car expecting it to drive like a Ferrari (fighting words)Jedi.gif (as I protectively cover my AD8's ears).  But, in all seriousness, I was planning to acquire 3-4 QUALITY EP collection over a few years rather than QUANTITY.  First is this true that TV EP are so superior to a Dobsonian that my eyes would not be getting the full experience as someone who has let's say maybe a 20" scope?  And if my scope truly can't appreciate that optical difference in quality EP, then what EP's would the CN community suggest as the upper quality limit for a simple f/6 dob?  Thank you kindly for any and all advice. 

 

Wishing for clear dark skies! 

 

 

Mike

 

Once you get the EP you'll be able to test out whether it gives you that same magical view you saw but through your scope. Until then it's all speculation and worrying. You should always chase that positive desire experience you had, and it also seems like you're quite fond of your scope. So to echo the oft repeated advice on here ... the best scope is the one you use the most. 


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#17 Ihtegla Sar

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:18 PM

Mike:

This is the way I see it:

Consider two eyepieces, the 13 mm T6 Nagler and the 12 mm Astro-Tech Paradigm. One costs $335, one costs $65. I have both these eyepieces. I use them in a number of scopes including my 10 inch F/5 "commerical" Dob.

Comparing them side by side, the Nagler has a wider, sharper field of view. The 12 mm Paradigm is still quite sharp across the field and it's 60° field still feels generous. The Paradigm has somewhat more eye relief, it may be a bit more comfortable.

Out under the night sky in an 8 inch F/6 Dob, you'll see essentially the same objects in nearly the same way in both eyepieces. The Nagler will be a little more perfect, an aesthetic consideration, but as an observer, these are very similar eyepieces.

For the price of the 13 mm Nagler, you could buy five Astro-Tech Paradigms. Add a 2X Barlow and you could be pretty much set, you would have good quality eyepieces that cover all your needs.

If you buy the Nagler, you will have one very good eyepiece but for the coming next few years, you will not have the eyepieces you need to observe the planets, doubles stars, globular clusters among others.

So, my recommendation is to build a good basic set of eyepieces first and then slowly begin to build a fancier set, if you feel the need to. I have a set of Paradigms, a set of Naglers. I often choose the Paradigms, they don't give up much to the Naglers.

You can buy good eyepieces for $65.

Jon


Jon,

I don't disagree with anything you said but consider this. The OP has already purchased the 13mm Nagler and depending on where it was purchased, there may be a restocking fee as well as return shipping costs and if original shipping was free the cost of the original shipping might be deducted from the refund as well. All that could add up to more than the cost of a Paradigm.

From reading the OP, it sounds like the main reason for the remorse was his friend suggested not to get a premium eyepiece for a "cheap" scope. I think you would agree that an 8" f/6 dob by GSO is a good scope and fully capable of making the most of a 13mm Nagler.

If the Nagler hadn't already been purchased, I would tend to agree with you that a good basic set would be the first priority. But since they already have a couple other eyepieces that seem usable, I'm not sure returning the Nagler is the best way to go here.
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#18 vtornado

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:21 PM

I agree with Jon in post #11.

 

If you have to go a year before purchasing another eyepiece because you have blown your yearly eyepiece budget.   I would go for a more good eyepieces first.

 

Paradigms are good.  Celestron xcel-x are good, even the 6 and 9 mm gold line/red lines

are good.

 

Another option is a Baader 8-24 zoom.  Which is a good substitue for 3 or 4 good eyepieces.

 

I don't own premium eyepieces but have looked through plenty at my astro clubs star party.  They seem slightly better than my astro-tech's but to me not worth the price.

You may have been more "wowed" by the wide field than the very good sharpness.

 

The eyepiece you have ordered does not have the best eye relief, which maybe is

not an issue for you, but it is for others.  I'm just trying to point out that there is really

no perfect eyepiece that is right for everyone.  And sometimes you have to live with

an eyepiece for awhile to know it is a keeper.

 

Another issue is, is the 13mm right for you? your scope? and what you will

be looking at?  Maybe a 10 would be better, maybe a 15?  That takes time

at the eyepiece to  figure it out


Edited by vtornado, 23 September 2022 - 04:25 PM.

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#19 BoldAxis1967

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:22 PM

I like Jon Isaacs approach.  I bought a Paradigm for a friend and it is a good EP.  The other main point Jon raises is that you will have all of your bases covered in short order by purchasing 3 or 4 paradigms and they slowly add  more premium EPs to your collection if you want.  

 

Also, an observing chair combined with a few paradigms will be far more useful than a collection of more expensive EPs with no chair.

 

L.


Edited by BoldAxis1967, 23 September 2022 - 04:23 PM.

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#20 wrvond

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:33 PM

Hello,  

   <snip> I've been attending various astronomy group sessions and had the opportunity to compare various EP brands through my f/6 scope.  Some EP were OK and some really wow me.  One I was impressed with was the TV Nagler line, specifically the 13mm and the low mag ES.<snip> 

 

Wishing for clear dark skies! 

 

 

Mike

You already tried the EP in your scope. It wowed you. Tell your friend he doesn't know what he's talking about.


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#21 Gschnettler

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:40 PM

I used the 25mm and 9mm plossls that came with my 6” f/10 dob for many years. I didn’t even know that there were premium eyepieces. I added an Orion 6mm and an Orion Shorty Barlow and thought I was all set and doing great. But in retrospect I wish I had known about better eyepieces and better eye relief.

When I got my 12” f/5 dob I felt that the 28mm that came with it was terrible. And the eyepieces I already had also didn’t work with this new scope. Turns out that f/5 is a lot more demanding than f/10.

You’re at f/6 so I’m not sure how demanding that is. To address my problem I ended up buying APM UFF, Morpheus and Pentax eyepieces. They are all terrific.

I decided to bite the bullet and buy a full range (5mm - 30mm) of good eyepieces all at once because I highly value my observing time and decided that I wanted to get the most out of my viewing sessions.

I bet your 13mm Nagler will be amazing. But I also recommend adding 2-3 more good (maybe not premium) eyepieces to ensure that you can get the most out of your nights under the sky. The paradigm and celestron x-cel LX should be good choices. I have the 25mm and 7mm x-cel LX and they are both very good.
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#22 havasman

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 04:52 PM

The 13T6 Nagler is a really fine eyepiece. I sold one when I got a 13 Ethos but turned around and bought another one because it's performance and package size are perfect in some situations. So you did not make a mistake. It's just a matter of how YOU want to do it. It doesn't take long reading these forums and/or hanging out at an astronomy club or dark site to learn everyone's an expert with advice for you. Do what you like. Think it through as you did and then go with your plan, paying attention to the ongoing results instead of the noise of the rabble.

 

One thing that may help you collect is to take advantage of the secondary market in the CN classifieds and on Astromart. There's a HUGE Nagler population among us all because they're very high performance eyepieces in modern scopes like yours and they're often available there.


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#23 Sleep Deprived

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 05:06 PM

Even IF your scope isn't the proverbial Ferrari, the premium eyepieces will likely bring out its full potential, whereas the cheaper ones will not.  Also, you may want to consider these to be 'forever' eyepieces.  So many people here have multiple telescopes of varying quality, aperture, FL, etc - someday you may buy that Ferrari telescope, and your eyepieces will already be there for you!

 

Stick to your plan.  Nothing wrong with that at all, and actually quite smart in the long-term!


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#24 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 05:57 PM

Even IF your scope isn't the proverbial Ferrari, the premium eyepieces will likely bring out its full potential, whereas the cheaper ones will not.  Also, you may want to consider these to be 'forever' eyepieces.  So many people here have multiple telescopes of varying quality, aperture, FL, etc - someday you may buy that Ferrari telescope, and your eyepieces will already be there for you!

 

Stick to your plan.  Nothing wrong with that at all, and actually quite smart in the long-term!

 

There is very little difference in what one sees in the 13 mm Nagler and the 12 mm Paradigm. This idea that some how one will magically see a substantially more in a premium eyepiece just doesn't hold true, the differences are subtle.

 

On the other hand, when a 5 mm focal length provides the right magnification for the object, then the 5 mm Paradigm will show substantially more than the 13 mm Nagler, 240x versus 92x is a big difference.

 

One needs eyepieces that cover the range of useful magnifications, one excellent eyepiece won't fulfill an observer's needs.

 

Jon


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#25 faackanders2

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Posted 23 September 2022 - 06:17 PM

Hello,  

    I am having a bit of EP buyers remorse. When I purchased my 8" dob I had it in mind that I would eventually save up to purchase quality EP once a year rather than purchasing pricier scope with mediocre EP. Over the past few months I have decided to start building that EP collection one at a time.  My goal was to eventually replace the straw like 9mm plossl and the mediocre 30mm Superview the scope came with, but they're fine for now. I've been attending various astronomy group sessions and had the opportunity to compare various EP brands through my f/6 scope.  Some EP were OK and some really wow me.  One I was impressed with was the TV Nagler line, specifically the 13mm and the low mag ES.  I went ahead and purchased a 13mm TV Nagler T6, since that is the EP I remembered thinking "this is amazing" when I viewed it.  I have not viewed everyone brand available to compare.  But, now that I've purchased it (waiting for arrival), I discussed this purchase with a friend and he offered some tough advice...that I should cancel or return my 13mm purchase and instead use that money for a few cheaper EPs instead of a single TV EP.  He mentioned it's like putting higher octane gasoline into a cheap car expecting it to drive like a Ferrari (fighting words)Jedi.gif (as I protectively cover my AD8's ears).  But, in all seriousness, I was planning to acquire 3-4 QUALITY EP collection over a few years rather than QUANTITY.  First is this true that TV EP are so superior to a Dobsonian that my eyes would not be getting the full experience as someone who has let's say maybe a 20" scope?  And if my scope truly can't appreciate that optical difference in quality EP, then what EP's would the CN community suggest as the upper quality limit for a simple f/6 dob?  Thank you kindly for any and all advice. 

 

Wishing for clear dark skies! 

 

 

Mike

There are value eyepieces like ES, ADM, Stellarview, Meade for 82AFOV.

And it would be better to have a Low, Mid, High power 3 eyepiece set vs. just one.

 

Also if your telescope only has a 1.25" focuser, it may may sense to get a TV 24mm 68AFOV for widest view in a 1.25" focuser.

 

However if you are an eyepiece keeper; it may make sense to fill in the gaps one at a time with quality eyepiece (TV, Nikon, etc).  Since these eyepieces would be long term keepers for this and future telescopes.

 

It would not make sense to buy complete sets, and then upgade to buy once again complete sets, and then upgade to buy once again complete sets, etc.  (like going from possil, to Panoptic, to Nagler, to Ethos), because you would most likely on use the best latter ones you have (unless you are an eyeglass user that mat not prefer Ethos).

 

Good luck in your eyepiece & telescope journey!


Edited by faackanders2, 23 September 2022 - 08:21 PM.

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