1316 replies to this topic

[rocco13]

 
Also believe we need a ‘sub thread’ to this one titled “The Joy of Small *Cheap* Refractors”. 

Agreed. Per the thread in Cats & Casses regarding the ExploraScope 70mm mak, I looked at their line of cheap scopes and ended up with the 90mm F/7.3 refractor. I originally was just looking for a tripod for my 90 Mak, but for only a few bucks more I got one with a cheap refractor on it.

 

https://www.amazon.c...nics,132&sr=1-1

 

It's about what you'd expect for $160. It did come with the usual stuff... a red dot finder, the throwaway plossls, plus a cellphone holder to take pics through the eyepiece. The tripod is usable, but as expected, not the most stable. Every time I use the slow motion controls I have to wait several seconds for those vibrations to die down before viewing. And the scope has a certain degree of CA. Again, not unexpected for a basic achromat/tripod setup. The good news is that the tripod has the standard dovetail, which allows me to use the 90 Mak I originally planned on using with it, so that is a plus.

 

I'm aware this is a 'toy' compared to all of this thread's expensive telescopes, but I have no regrets on this purchase. It's not going to replace my other scopes for serious stuff, but it is light, quick and easy to set up and use, and so far I'm just having fun with it.

Edited by rocco13, 09 February 2023 - 02:31 PM.

[treadmarks]

 

I realized that what was missing wasn't equipment or aperture, but simply looking up and enjoying what I could see, instead of lamenting what I couldn't. Game changer for me. 

 

My take on it is slightly different: what can be seen by a small aperture is more than adequate for me. Or: the things I want to look at are not highly aperture-sensitive. And the sky conditions of my home area put a limit on my useful aperture too.
 

The only object class I can view from home that I imagine will be badly hurt by small aperture is planetary nebulae. Everything else was either already off the menu, or the improvement from aperture is likely insignificant - but that latter point is something I intend to test once my 72ED arrives.

 

So my viewpoint may be contradictory to conventional wisdom, but I don't think you can solve bad skies with more aperture. Instead, the big scope can be like adding another problem because of the weight, bulk, FOV, eyepiece travel etc. Better to just get an easy, enjoyable scope that you don't have to fight with, and enjoy what can be seen from your area, and not compound the problem.

 

And if you have a good sky, you're going to have a good time no matter what you're using.

[artik]

That is one I’ve been interested in. More than one source has said good things about its optical quality. Right now on Svbony’s ebay site they are $56 with free shipping. I don’t dare however, the missus is already asking ‘the question’! 
“Another one! How many scopes do you need?” 
The correct answer, as always, is 42 so, only 34 more to acquire. 
 

 

I own svbony sv501p 60/400 and find myself using it more on daily basis that my larger 102/660 scope. Mostly because it is so easy to pull out.

 

Really fun scope and really lightweight 

[MarkMittlesteadt]

My take on it is slightly different: what can be seen by a small aperture is more than adequate for me. Or: the things I want to look at are not highly aperture-sensitive. And the sky conditions of my home area put a limit on my useful aperture too.
 

The only object class I can view from home that I imagine will be badly hurt by small aperture is planetary nebulae. Everything else was either already off the menu, or the improvement from aperture is likely insignificant - but that latter point is something I intend to test once my 72ED arrives.

 

So my viewpoint may be contradictory to conventional wisdom, but I don't think you can solve bad skies with more aperture. Instead, the big scope can be like adding another problem because of the weight, bulk, FOV, eyepiece travel etc. Better to just get an easy, enjoyable scope that you don't have to fight with, and enjoy what can be seen from your area, and not compound the problem.

 

And if you have a good sky, you're going to have a good time no matter what you're using.

I call it, "adjusted expectation" That's part of what killed the hobby for me; constantly trying to overcome expectations of what can't be overcome without taking a bigger scope somewhere dark, or getting into EAA, AP, NV, etc. none of which appealed to me. My lifestyle and/or budget negated those. EAA does somewhat, and I pretty much have what I'd need for it, except the desire to actually do it. LOL.

 

For just casual viewing, I've spent the better part of last summer just enjoying the night sky naked eye. I thought, "Well, if I'm just enjoying the night sky without any optical aid, why would I need much more than that?" Then the ST80 proved that point to me. I just enjoy the casual, wide field views of a nightly "spacewalk" without any intention to seek out particular objects or any expectation as to what the view through a small scope would provide. It was kind of liberating. 

Edited by MarkMittlesteadt, 09 February 2023 - 02:43 PM.

[Terra Nova]

@ Terra Nova…. Thank u for sharing pictures of of your gear ( that Mayflower ! )What are your thoughts on the mount you have the ST80 on ? Pros and cons ? Can it point to Zenith ? Wats the weight limit ? And more of less how mu$h is it

The mount that my little red custom 80mm F5 is an Oben gimbal mount. The mini-pier is a skywatcher and I built the tripod from salvaged odds and ends. I really like the mount. It’s very easy to balance the scope on (BTW, that little scope is quite heavy for its size, a bit over five pounds). The mount actions up-down and right-left are very smooth with no backlash. It won’t quite make Zenith but that doesn’t bother me as I never look at anything straight up anyway because I find both the finding and the looking so uncomfortable. It’s one position where a diagonal doesn’t help. But all you have to do is wait an hour and look at something else in the meantime.

https://www.bhphotov...t=BI:6879&smp=y

Edited by Terra Nova, 09 February 2023 - 03:01 PM.

[John R.]

@ Terra Nova…. Thank u for sharing pictures of of your gear ( that Mayflower ! )What are your thoughts on the mount you have the ST80 on ? Pros and cons ? Can it point to Zenith ? Wats the weight limit ? And more of less how mu$h is it

That looks like a Wemberley WH200S head. Available at B&H Photo for an eye watering $445! 
Absolutely out of my income demographic but hey, by all reviews it’s very good. 
Besides the alt-az that came with my Spectrum mak I have built a very smooth and stable alt-az out of wood and other bits, probably about $10 spent, and it sits on a Slik tripod that I inherited (the closest tripod they have now is $150 new). It’s good for about 4-5 pounds but being homebuilt has no slow motion controls.

Right now, at Amazon’s price, that Spectrum mak+AZ mount cannot be beat for value for small lightweight scopes. 
 

EDIT; Just saw your post Terra. Wow, didn’t even know there was a Wemberley clone! Looks like a much more reasonable and realistic price. 

Edited by John R., 09 February 2023 - 03:13 PM.

[John R.]

A big thanks to Mark for starting this thread. It is a blast. 
We need a new sub forum for cheapskate’s like me and others. We could call it…..

 

‘The Bottom Feeder’s Forum’ 

[MarkMittlesteadt]

A big thanks to Mark for starting this thread. It is a blast. 
We need a new sub forum for cheapskate’s like me and others. We could call it…..

 

‘The Bottom Feeder’s Forum’ 

Or...we could call it "Erutrepa Fever" 

[Scott Beith]

Even my biggest scope these days is small. It’s a Vixen ED102SS (F6.5):

I have wanted one of those since back when they were in the Orion catalog!  

[John R.]

Oh nooooo! 
Just ordered another cheap Spectrum refractor. It is listed on Amazon as the Astrolite 60az refractor for bubblegum money of $31. 
At 60x500mm it lands right in the middle of my 60’s, between the 360mm and 700mm. 
The OTA should come in at about 2lbs and 20 inches long and it has a vixen style metal dovetail fitting, too short but, well there it is. 

Supposed to be here by Wednesday next week, I’ll give everyone my impression of it ( although normally I don’t do impressions). 

 

Bottom feeders rule!!!

PS; doesn’t come with the neat AZ mount, has a cheap tripod, but again, there it is. 
 

Edited by John R., 09 February 2023 - 06:13 PM.

[John R.]

Re; Mark’s post #304. 
Amen.

Although it may disappoint my advice about what telescope to get for a neophyte is, don’t buy any scope just yet. I tell them they need just four pieces of equipment some of which they may have. 
#1. A warm coat, gloves and hat. (Around here stargazing can get downright chilly, even in the middle of high summer.) 
#2. Reclining aluminum lawn chair. (Save your neck.)

#3. Red lensed light. and, 

#4. A 16 inch planisphere 

 

The other thing is not a thing, it’s time, time to dark adapt your vision, time it takes to ‘see’, and contemplate. 
 

Of course one can always see if there is a local astronomy club you can join or a star party you can attend. 

Or join Cloudy Nights! 

[DavidNealMinnick]

~

 

My almost smallest refractor, now discontinued for a spell:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

[DavidNealMinnick]

~

 

Despite its diminutive size, last night (Wednesday) it showed me the first view I've had of the Green comet's tail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[MarkMittlesteadt]

Re; Mark’s post #304. 
Amen.

Although it may disappoint my advice about what telescope to get for a neophyte is, don’t buy any scope just yet. I tell them they need just four pieces of equipment some of which they may have. 
#1. A warm coat, gloves and hat. (Around here stargazing can get downright chilly, even in the middle of high summer.) 
#2. Reclining aluminum lawn chair. (Save your neck.)

#3. Red lensed light. and, 

#4. A 16 inch planisphere 

 

The other thing is not a thing, it’s time, time to dark adapt your vision, time it takes to ‘see’, and contemplate. 
 

Of course one can always see if there is a local astronomy club you can join or a star party you can attend. 

Or join Cloudy Nights! 

I used to recommend either 6" or 8" reflectors (Dobs) or SCT's to newbies, only for the "Wow!" factor. Now, I'm less inclined to do so. I also try to get them oriented to the night sky naked eye first. To find Planets, bright DSO's like M42, M31 and M45 naked eye. Something that will draw them into searching the night sky, not just attempting to drag them down the black hole of aperture and gear. 

 

If they really wish to pursue it further, then I recommend finding a good, solid tripod and a small, but solid manual mount. IMO, that matters more than what scope you put on it. To me, nothing kills the hobby quite like a wobbly tripod where they can't even focus without the image jumping in and out of the FOV. Then...I will now recommend a small refractor. Perhaps even binoculars to start off with. 

 

Why? Because I see too many new people get way in over their head with gear and become frustrated. What could be more fun than a simple refractor on a simple mount? Almost anyone can understands how to use that. I teach them to enjoy the night sky...and just take the time to gradually invest more time and money later if they want to. 

Edited by MarkMittlesteadt, 10 February 2023 - 10:16 AM.

[kasprowy]

I call it, "adjusted expectation" That's part of what killed the hobby for me; constantly trying to overcome expectations of what can't be overcome without taking a bigger scope somewhere dark, or getting into EAA, AP, NV, etc. none of which appealed to me. My lifestyle and/or budget negated those. EAA does somewhat, and I pretty much have what I'd need for it, except the desire to actually do it. LOL.

 

For just casual viewing, I've spent the better part of last summer just enjoying the night sky naked eye. I thought, "Well, if I'm just enjoying the night sky without any optical aid, why would I need much more than that?" Then the ST80 proved that point to me. I just enjoy the casual, wide field views of a nightly "spacewalk" without any intention to seek out particular objects or any expectation as to what the view through a small scope would provide. It was kind of liberating. 

Yep, simplicity and minimalism are the way for me. I use my 15x70 Skymasters the most, followed by my 50mm RACI (set up like a regular scope), my TV76, and then my 102mm achromat. These are non-coincidentally ordered by degree of ease of setting up and tearing down. When I go to a star party once a year, I get my fill of dark skies and large dobs. Naked eye at Bortle 1 is almost indescribable. Naked eye at Bortle 8/9, even then I enjoy picturing in my mind how the Sun, Moon, and planets relate. 

Edited by kasprowy, 10 February 2023 - 10:44 AM.

[kasprowy]

I used to recommend either 6" or 8" reflectors (Dobs) or SCT's to newbies, only for the "Wow!" factor. Now, I'm less inclined to do so. I also try to get them oriented to the night sky naked eye first. To find Planets, bright DSO's like M42, M31 and M45 naked eye. Something that will draw them into searching the night sky, not just attempting to drag them down the black hole of aperture and gear. 

 

If they really wish to pursue it further, then I recommend finding a good, solid tripod and a small, but solid manual mount. IMO, that matters more than what scope you put on it. To me, nothing kills the hobby quite like a wobbly tripod where they can't even focus without the image jumping in and out of the FOV. Then...I will now recommend a small refractor. Perhaps even binoculars to start off with. 

 

Why? Because I see too many new people get way in over their head with gear and become frustrated. What could be more fun than a simple refractor on a simple mount? Almost anyone can understands how to use that. I teach them to enjoy the night sky...and just take the time to gradually invest more time and money later if they want to. 

The relative low cost of equipment nowadays opens up a whole slew of large apertures that weren't realistically available many decades ago. I made due with a 60mm refractor and a 7x35 binocular for 23 years before "upgrading" to a 102mm. By then I had a family, and funds were not readily available. Now, when I can afford the large apertures, bells, and whistles, I find that I don't really want or need them. Also, the information and pix on any given object are readily available on the web, another feature that was absent decades back. You need to stop somewhere, else you'll forever be chasing aperture and technology.

[alnitak22]

~

 

Despite its diminutive size, last night (Wednesday) it showed me the first view I've had of the Green comet's tail.

 

 

IMGP0649 - Copy.JPG

 

 

 

 

.

Congrats! I’m sure it’s a fine scope but seeing the comet’s tail also has a lot to do with your sky. Here, a mile north of Manhattan, neither of my 6” scopes nor my TV85 show more than a hint of a tail. 

[MarkMittlesteadt]

1:30. One minute and thirty seconds changed my life forever.

 

It altered my perspective on life and everything in my life changed from that moment on...how I lived my life, what my priorities were, a desire to simplify it down to the basics in all areas of my life, including my interest in astronomy. 

 

I was in Illinois, in my sister's boyfriend's back yard awaiting the North American total solar eclipse. As the sky drew darker, and all life (like the birds and cicadas) paused in this "mid-day turned to night" experience, I stood there, with nothing but my eyes and mind to behold it. 

 

Seeing four planets, stars, and the Sun's corona dancing about, reaching far out into space, beyond the silhouette of the Moon, I was in a hypnotic trance, and immediately felt this sense on Oneness with the Universe in a way nothing in astronomy has ever affected me. It was as if the Earth beneath me disappeared and I was floating in space, a part of the Universe itself. 

 

For months and even years afterwards, almost every view (through even the biggest of reflectors) left me rather disappointed as even the grandest views with the biggest apertures, under the darkest of skies, still paled in comparison to that day. I just don't care any longer about the view through bigger scopes. I don't care how big it is, it's trivial to me now. 

 

I just love looking out there, knowing we are out there among it all.  My little scopes are all I need, and honestly I don't even need them. 

Edited by MarkMittlesteadt, 10 February 2023 - 11:29 AM.

[John R.]

I believe Ed Ting, in one of his videos, pointed out that paradoxically ‘beginner’s refractors’ are really much better suited to an experienced user than a neophyte. Almost all of them have wobbly mounts such that it doesn’t matter how good the optical tube is if the presented image bounces all over the place. 
Another factor is that noobs do not understand why a steady alt-az mount should cost 4x the price of the inexpensive refractor. Plus they generally do not comprehend just how steady the whole rig has to be at 80-100x. 
Add to this useless finders, slack focusing, nice and shiny black plastic focusing tubes, and ridiculous expectations generated by photographs of the outer planets plastered on the box and you have a recipe for a one time sale and attempted use, and then left in a dusty corner of a closet thereafter. (Or, until it winds up on Craig’s List or Offer Up.) 

 

I guess, if possible, active astronomy clubs with outreach and mentoring programs would be best. 

Personally I’m not an experienced observer, had a keen interest in the hobby 40+ years ago but life happened, cataracts formed, any only in late 2021 did I have my surgery. That rekindled my interest so I’m at best an out of date retread. 
 

[artik]

I believe Ed Ting, in one of his videos, pointed out that paradoxically ‘beginner’s refractors’ are really much better suited to an experienced user than a neophyte. Almost all of them have wobbly mounts such that it doesn’t matter how good the optical tube is if the presented image bounces all over the place. 
Another factor is that noobs do not understand why a steady alt-az mount should cost 4x the price of the inexpensive refractor. Plus they generally do not comprehend just how steady the whole rig has to be at 80-100x. . 

 

Actually as someone who owns a cheap refractor on supper wobbly mount that weights 0.5kg I agree. I can manage it because I can accept that it takes 3-4s for wobbling to stop because I know it is the price I pay for super lightweight rig I can take anywhere (1.5kg with accessories)

 

But I wouldn't recommend one for newbie 

[Jon Isaacs]

If they really wish to pursue it further, then I recommend finding a good, solid tripod and a small, but solid manual mount. IMO, that matters more than what scope you put on it. To me, nothing kills the hobby quite like a wobbly tripod where they can't even focus without the image jumping in and out of the FOV. Then...I will now recommend a small refractor. Perhaps even binoculars to start off with.

One of the advantages of a 6 inch F/8 or 8 inch F/6 Dobsonian is that the mount is rock solid.  Solid tripods are expensive. Starting off with a good tripod is a good way to get a solid start with a small refractor.
 
Twenty five years ago, I was at a swap meet and saw a Bogen 3040 tripod. I had $30, the seller wanted $35. The nearest ATM was a mile walk, each way. It was late, I was tired.. I decided I'd go for it. Over the years, that Bogen 3040, a 3046 tripod with an old style 3047 head has been my most used tripod/mount. It's evolved to the point that today I'm using it mostly as a portable observing table.
 
I often think about how different things might be if I had decided not to walk those two miles to get the money. Today, the modern versions of the 3046-47 combo is over $600.
 

 

I believe Ed Ting, in one of his videos, pointed out that paradoxically ‘beginner’s refractors’ are really much better suited to an experienced user than a neophyte. Almost all of them have wobbly mounts such that it doesn’t matter how good the optical tube is if the presented image bounces all over the place.

 
That's been my experience.. Last night I was doing a small refractor "shoot out."
 
I had two scopes setup, the 60 mm F/7 Svbony. It was not mounted on the stock tripod. Instead, it was riding on a vintage Linhof professional tripod.  The eyepieces were not the stock eyepieces, rather, I was using a mix of Astro-Tech Paradigms and Type 6 Naglers. 



(Winter in San Diego is not always this nice.)
 
The second scope was my 4 inch F/5.4 TeleVue NP-101.. it wasn't really a shoot out.. I just had the two scopes setup.
 
The seeing was quite poor but one of the goals for the evening was to see if I could split Izar with the Svbony 60 mm. I'd gone to bed but about 1 am, woke up and went outside to give Izar a go in the Svbony.  I went as high as 164x. I thought I could see something but it was not definitive.  I gave Izar a try with the 4 inch, there was something more there but it wasn't definitive either so there's still hope for the little Svbony.
 
Splitting Izar would be quite an accomplishment for a 60 mm F/7 achromat.  It's a challenge for longer slower achromats. But as John and Mark point out, this was an inexpensive beginners telescope but I'm not a beginner and the scope was surrounded by quality accessories. Each "basic" Paradigm eyepiece cost as much as the telescope.
 
Jon

[weis14]

 

One of the advantages of a 6 inch F/8 or 8 inch F/6 Dobsonian is that the mount is rock solid.  Solid tripods are expensive. Starting off with a good tripod is a good way to get a solid start with a small refractor.

This is a really good point Jon.  It is intuitive and makes sense if you think about it, but I've never really considered that a major advantage of a Dob for beginners is that the mount is superior.  That surprises me since the biggest problem with my first 2-3 scopes (refractor, EQ Newtonian, and early model 90mm ETX) was the mount.  It wasn't until I eventually got a CG-5 class mount that my scopes really became useful.  For the first few years I observed, my handheld 10x50s had the best mount, which is why I saw so much with them.

[DavidNealMinnick]

Congrats! I’m sure it’s a fine scope but seeing the comet’s tail also has a lot to do with your sky. Here, a mile north of Manhattan, neither of my 6” scopes nor my TV85 show more than a hint of a tail. 

~

 

Bortle ~6, here.

 

 

 

.

[Pat Rochford]

Laughing at my addled brain. 

 

Reading your post just now, I'm wondering why the hell you would walk two miles in search of an amateur telescope maker to borrow five dollars.  

 

I've been spending the winter in the west of Ireland and obviously way too close to a pub. 

 

 
Twenty five years ago, I was at a swap meet and saw a Bogen 3040 tripod. I had $30, the seller wanted $35. The nearest ATM was a mile walk, each way. It was late, I was tired.. I decided I'd go for it. Over the years, that Bogen 3040, a 3046 tripod with an old style 3047 head has been my most used tripod/mount. It's evolved to the point that today I'm using it mostly as a portable observing table.
 

[Jon Isaacs]

Laughing at my addled brain. 

 

Reading your post just now, I'm wondering why the hell you would walk two miles in search of an amateur telescope maker to borrow five dollars.  

 

I've been spending the winter in the west of Ireland and obviously way too close to a pub. 

 

 

My addled brain is laughing at your addled brain... 

 

Jon