206 replies to this topic

[HouseBuilder328]

At star parties, on all CN boards and even talking to friends, they are all about buying the best refractor with the best glass.  Overall, I’m a newbie to this amazing hobby but have been here since 2019 but have been studying science/astrophysics forever.  

 

Is the main thing about refractors the wide field view and observing DSO and Astrophotography?  Because the aperture is so small on refractors and people are going crazy about 72mm, 90mm and 102mm scopes.  Anything above that is so expensive.  

 

An SCT or Dob gives so much aperture for planets and solar system objects but their narrow field of view is what the refractor fans are annoyed at?

 

(disclaimer:  I am considering buying a refractor to supplement my Celestron 9.25 and to possibly double mount it).

Edited by HouseBuilder328, 27 January 2023 - 02:38 PM.

[alnitak22]

At star parties, on all CN boards and even talking to friends, they are all about buying the best refractor with the best glass.  Overall, I’m a newbie to this amazing hobby but have been here since 2019 but have been studying science/astrophysics forever.  

 

Is the main thing about refractors the wide field view and observing DSO and Astrophotography?  Because the aperture is so small on refractors and people are going crazy about 72mm, 90mm and 102mm scopes.  Anything above that is so expensive.  

 

An SCT or Dob gives so much aperture for planets and solar system objects but their narrow field of view is what the refractor fans are annoyed at?

 

(disclaimer:  I am concerning buying a refractor to supplement my Celestron 9.25 and to possibly double mount it).

Small refractors like my TV85 are very versatile and  give excellent views for the aperture both for wide field, low power, and high power lunar/planetary. It also is just as much fun to use by day for solar and nature watching. It is easy to mount on a variety of AZ and EQ mounts. But it does NOT match either of the 6” scopes in my signature for high power lunar/planetary. How could it as 85mm compared to 150mm is not a fair fight. You have an excellent scope and are missing nothing performance wise. A small refractor might be a nice companion to your larger scope but it will in no way outperform it.

[clearwaterdave]

I can only speak for myself.,I like refractors for their ease of use.,I don't do astrophotography but do use my scopes like an extra power lense for terrestrial use.,

 A good well mounted refractor will give you a lifetime of service with little to nothing as far as maintenance.,and can be ready to use in seconds.,

 I like observing open clusters and the refractors are the perfect tool for me.,Good luck in your choices.,Consider a scope from this forum's sponsor AT refractors are one of the best bang 4 buck available.,

[siriusandthepup]

If you main interest is visual astronomy - start at the 102mm. The frenzied interest in the smaller models is 99% astrophotography.

[epee]

Refractors, up to about 125mm, are the most portable, maintenance-free, grab-n-go-then-put-it-away-for-six-years, scope you can own. They also easily double up as a terrestrial spotting scope of exceptional brightness, and potentially, magnification. As you say, they excel at FOV, and if you buy the "optical perfection" of an apochromat, they are an extremely versatile astophotographic lens. 

[City Kid]

For me the appeal of my refractors is the wide field of view. I see my refractors as a compliment to my dobs. If I ever had to go down to one scope it would not be a refractor because the aperture is too limiting.

[Hikescdnrckys]

I supplemented my Celestron Evo 9.25 with a Williams Optics Zenithstar 73 mostly for astrophotography and the larger field of view, but also was wowed when I first looked at the moon through it and found the image just popped with sharpness and detail. It's a great visual scope for the planets and clusters and as mentioned, almost no maintenance.

[Ionthesky]

I think what you're seeing is a leaning toward astrophotography among your friends.  In the visual world, aperture is king (although a lot of fun can be had with small refractors - I have a couple of 'em and enjoy them).  In the AP world, the light weight of a small APO allows for a smaller load on the mount, which is critical for sharp photos.  The astrophotographer will sacrifice the lower light-gathering power of the small frac in favor of a lighter rig that's easier to keep positioned accurately.

 

Here in the visual world, you'll find most of us leaning toward dobs (bigger is better, as long as you can lug it around without it becoming too much of a job to enjoy).  Smaller, short-tube fracs are really good for wide-field views of larger bright objects, so are also enjoyed by visual enthusiasts.  They're also much easier to set up/take down and don't require long cool-down times before use.  They are the preferred "grab 'n go" scope by many.

 

I could go on and on (I usually do  ), but I think you get the idea.

 

Regards,

Dave

[Kitfox]

Maybe you really shouldn't buy one...remember the saying about Lay's potato chips?

 

Probably the only group more fanatical are the Dob owners, put one in a room with a refractor guy and it's instant critical mass!

 

I can argue both sides, as you can see in my signature, but they both have their place.  You will see.  And I do recommend you go with a good APO and see what you think for yourself.  But do yourself a favor, get a big Dob, too, then you have a very nice trifecta!

[rgk901]

My first was a newt, second was another newt and 3rd another... recently purchased a small 50mm and.... already planning more of them haha.. this hobby is more addictive than cocaine!

 

But seriously, as mentioned above.... for imaging it's the weight, 'ease' of use, image quality, large field of view etc... for the visual observer it's the exact same as above but for your eyes

 

Buy one to see if it's your cup of tea, but as mentioned ... you'll quickly want more for some unknown quantum entanglement reason!?

[SeymoreStars]

I caved to the pressure to get a small refractor, a SVX080T-3FT. But I only image from the observatory and want light grasp. It helps with the crappy skies here.
The SVX080T-3FT is a dust collector.

 

I just went in the opposite direction and ordered a Hyperstar for the Edge14HD. 356mm F1.9, a photon magnet. (FL 675)

Edited by SeymoreStars, 27 January 2023 - 10:06 AM.

[matt_astro_tx]

I have an 8" F/8 canon of a newtonian, and then I have a 60mm refractor.  Which do I use all the time?  The 60mm.  It's small, convenient, portable (I travel with it) and never needs collimation.

 

I do astrophotography.

[MinT]

I have 10 and 18 inch dobs and a 102mm refractor.  I got the refractor because I wanted something that was a step between my 10x50 binoculars and the 10 inch.  For this role, it does pretty well.  Setup is tbh a little longer than the 10 inch, currently I don't leave it assembled on the tripod though, if I did, opinion on that might change.  I only got the refractor a couple months ago, and I haven't gone on any weekend+ trips to darker sites with it, but I'm anticipating being able to bring both it, and my 18 inch, when normally I can't fit both the 10 and 18 in my car.  If I had to get rid of one of my scopes though, I would definitely choose to get rid of the refractor first despite liking it overall.  It can't compete with higher aperture dobs, but I didn't buy it expecting it to, and it does what I want it to.    

[Ihtegla Sar]

I live in a place where the weather and seeing aren't particularly conducive to astronomy. I like refractors because they don't need much cool down time and give more aesthetically pleasing views especially in adverse seeing conditions. Part of the reason for this is their their design and part of it is the relatively small aperture as compared to my other scopes (big dob and a couple Cassegrains).

Edited by Ihtegla Sar, 27 January 2023 - 11:18 AM.

[csrlice12]

When you want a finderscope for your big dob, you want the best you can get....

[bigeastro]

The reason is because of how easy they are to use and the lack of diffraction spikes.   However, I have a slight preference for reflectors and this is because I enjoy the challenge of collimating the optics and the appearance of the diffraction spikes.  I also like them because they provide the most bang for the buck.  I own two refractors, and hopefully a third if my name is drawn for an AP130GTX this year.  I own five reflectors all of which give me trouble from time to time, but I have been able to tame them.  I am very much attracted to reflectors.

[Polyphemos]

I have a bakers dozen refractors, achro and apo, between 50mm and 102mm aperture.  I am a strictly visual observer, and I suspect the majority of small aperture lovers are also strictly or predominantly visual observers.

 

I have to travel to get to dark skies.  The biggest draw for me is refractors grab and go convenience, sharp contrasty views, and no collimating. Small refractors punch above their weight, way above.  The refractors forum has plenty of posts by reflector owners who after years, and even decades, purchase their first refractor and are blown away at just how incredible the views are.

Edited by Polyphemos, 27 January 2023 - 11:10 AM.

[Echolight]

You’re suppose to get the best glass????

 

Oops... 

 

And it’s suppose to be small, with the best glass??

 

Double oops.. ...

 

Oh well, I like it better than a newt/dob.  
Refractors, for me, just feel right. Looking through them feels, looks, most natural. Even with CA.
 

LONG LIVE GALILEO!!.. . err.. REFRACTORS!   ,I mean

But the little deuced and reduced C5, WARNING!! DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME! (or don’t tell anyone if you do).. with some added mojo, it’s kinda like a super tiny 5 inch refractor.

So it can stay,... (as long as it’s dark so nobody can see it very well) 
It’s secret sauce gives 250x on the Moon and 2.3 degrees at 44x for a great view of M45.

Edited by Echolight, 27 January 2023 - 11:31 AM.

[mikeDnight]

In a word Definition. Refractors provide great definition on all targets, and despite their limited aperture they very often amaze observers even on deep sky. Because of their lack of central obstruction their star images are as tight as can be for any given aperture, and this translates into fine definition when viewing the Moon and planets, and so refractors are often said to punch above their aperture class.

[weis14]

I'm a 100% visual observer and also a small refractor evangelist.  The advantages of small refractors are numerous if you are an observer like me.  I have to set up for every session, often observe for 60 minutes or less at home in severe light pollution (lunar, planetary, double stars), frequently travel (by car with kids in tow) to places with dark skies and live in skies where seeing rarely supports magnifications above 200x.  The most used scope I owned for the last 15 years has been a short 90mm APO (several different models) despite also owning various 6-11" SCTs and 5-6" refractors during that time.  Here is why:

• Small refractors can go anywhere.  Unlike a 8-10" dob, they fit in a backpack or small case and can easily slide in the car with luggage.  Even the tripod and mount can be collapsible and I'm a lot more willing to put a tripod in something like a roof-mounted carrier than I would be a tube for a dob.  
   
• Small refractors always work right away.  With an appropriately sized grab and go setup, there is no need for multiple trips, assembly or checking of collimation.  It just works right away, every time.  Even cool down is only an issue on the most severe of nights.
   
• The mechanics and construction of the small refractors I've owned have been superb.  A scope like the AT92 I owned had a wonderful focuser and case standard (my Stowaway does too).  In contrast, many dobs and SCTs need significant DIY modifications (better focusers, insulation for SCTs) to achieve the same standards of performance.  I just want it to work.
   
• My observing sites are wet and muddy (or frozen and snowy) for 8 months of the year.  Setting up a dob in the mud or snow has never seemed like a good idea to me with their plywood construction.  In my opinion, tripod mounted scopes are vastly superior in these conditions.  This is probably less of an issue in dry climates or with higher end dobsonians.  
   
• Finally, I like the view better through equal (or close to equal) size refractors as compared to reflectors.  The contrast is better (though not as dramatic as some would have you believe) and I don't like diffraction spikes.  

All of that said, I usually keep a bigger aperture scope around for times it makes sense.  Right now my "big" scope is a C9.25.  I'll worry about getting something bigger if I run out of things to see in it.  I'll never run out of things to see in the small refractor as I can watch the lunar terminator change for hours at a time at 150x and its never the same twice.  

Edited by weis14, 28 January 2023 - 12:18 AM.

[Polyphemos]

Some of the best unsolicited testimonials come from reflector owners.

 

Speaking about his new AT72EDII:

 

”This scope exceeds my expectations, I’ll probably use it alone on cold winter nights, it’s light and easy to move. I never understood the attraction to small refractors til now, I thought they were for people who couldn’t afford better telescopes, man was I wrong, these are in a class of their own. I’m 72, I’m set for life, I tried them all, Cassegrain , DOB’s Reflectors & Binocular-Telescopes (which I still have, the Obe BT100ED is a keeper). These small refractors rock, They are all I need.

I sold my Celestron Evolution 8 to finance this and pay off my telescope debt. I couldn’t be happier with my choices.”

 

Another convert speaking about his AT102ED:

 

“Then, throwing caution to the wind I went for 297x fully realizing this is absurd power. But who cares, at least the little Mars will fatten up! The result? Unbelievable. This is 74.5x PER INCH OF APERTURE. The view floored me. Mars focused clean. How clean? Under this Pickering 5-6 seeing it was almost as sharp as what my 8" would focus to. Not the contrasts, just the coherent limb sharpness. I had to laugh. Then the maria and such came in. Three different haze spots like lower powers but just easier to see and gauge proportion to other features. The maria showed clearer evidence of its nature that tended to muddle a bit at 223x. Even with my 8" , say on the galillean moons, Id max at 60x per inch or so. Id never entertain 74.5!!! But here with this unobstructed obviously well fabricated optical system - and again - a doublet - it seemed to laugh at physics. Ive always been a cass or reflector guy with only a 70mm achro some years ago to my credit. So Im sure some of you kno this capability already. I wouldnt have believed it though to be honest. Id think it was small scope syndrome trying to talk up a good game. Not true, not true!”

[Polyphemos]

But the little deuced and reduced C5, WARNING!! DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME! (or don’t tell anyone if you do).. with some added mojo, it’s kinda like a super tiny 5 inch refractor.

So it can stay,... (as long as it’s dark so nobody can see it very well) 
It’s secret sauce gives 250x on the Moon and 2.3 degrees at 44x for a great view of M45.

4DE0793F-8000-4C3C-AA3B-ACD1BCFBB9A3.jpeg

I must know this magic device!

[Jon Isaacs]

In a word Definition. Refractors provide great definition on all targets, and despite their limited aperture they very often amaze observers even on deep sky. Because of their lack of central obstruction their star images are as tight as can be for any given aperture, and this translates into fine definition when viewing the Moon and planets, and so refractors are often said to punch above their aperture class.

 

I love my refractors and I love my reflectors.

 

Viewing the planets, splitting difficult double stars, I use my reflectors when I want the best possible views.  The effect of the central obstruction is small when compared to the effect of reducing the aperture by a factor of two or more.

 

I have some very nice refractors. I primarily use them for shorter backyard observing sessions as well as dark sky companions for my Dobs.  Refractors are "easy" scopes in that they do not require much effort to make them perform their best.  But they are limited by their aperture and for me, I'm happy to put the effort a Dob requires in order to get the views only a large aperture scope can provide..

 

One can be surprised by Mars at 300x in a small scope but Mars at 300x in a large scope shows much more and it's just getting started.  Jupiter on a good night in the 22 inch is something one will remember for a lifetime, it's a different world.

 

I spend a lot of time looking through a telescope.. I figure an average year is about 180 nights and 600 hours at the eyepiece. I suspect that most amateurs that observe as much I do, do much of it in larger aperture reflectors. For me, I am able to take advantage of large scopes, it takes me longer to put my eyepieces away than it does to put the wheel barrow handles on a Dob on roll it into the garage..

 

I rarely setup two Dobs, usually it's a Dob and a refractor. 

 

 

Jon

[Echolight]

I must know this magic device!

It kinda goes like this

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=xaK4r0pQaJ0

[aeajr]

At star parties, on all CN boards and even talking to friends, they are all about buying the best refractor with the best glass.  Overall, I’m a newbie to this amazing hobby but have been here since 2019 but have been studying science/astrophysics forever.  

 

Is the main thing about refractors the wide field view and observing DSO and Astrophotography?  Because the aperture is so small on refractors and people are going crazy about 72mm, 90mm and 102mm scopes.  Anything above that is so expensive.  

 

An SCT or Dob gives so much aperture for planets and solar system objects but their narrow field of view is what the refractor fans are annoyed at?

 

(disclaimer:  I am concerning buying a refractor to supplement my Celestron 9.25 and to possibly double mount it).

Keep this phrase in mind.  You want the right tool for the task and the right task for the tool.  There is no "best" telescope or best type of telescope.  Each is a series of compromises.  The article I posted below discusses each type and covers its plusses and minuses.

 

 

My main scope has been my 12" Dob.  

 

My smaller grab and go choice has been an 80 mm achromat or a 127 mm Mak. Both have 1.25" focusers.  The achromat gives me nice wide low to medium power views but the CA hurts the sharpness and I wanted more aperture.  The Mak gives nice high power views.  However, my observing sessions generally cover a variety of targets and the Mak , limited by its 1.25" focuser and long focal length, is so narrow that I feel it is mostly a special purpose scope.  I wanted something more flexible.

 

I had long heard that the perfect combination is a big Dob or SCT and a 100 mm ED or APO refractor.  So I got an F7 Astro Tech AT102ED and found out that, well, they were right.

 

The AT102ED gives me beautiful sharp images, good high power and enough aperture to reach a wide variety of DSOs, planets, double stars and the moon.  The low power wide view, based on its 2" focuser, is nearly as wide as the 80 mm achromat and double the field of view of the 12" Dob so I can view those large DSOs.  Yet it is still small and light enough for me to pick it up, fully mounted to walk with it or pack it in the car with other things.  For me, it is the perfect combination.

 

I have several binoculars (which are refractors) from 8X40 to 15X70 that are dedicated to astronomy. Sometimes I use them alone, but I bring at least one to every telescope session.  I often start and end the sessions with the binoculars. 

 

I can pick the right tool for the task and the right task for the tool. 

 

My 12"/305 mm Dob and my 102 mm ED refractor are now my main scopes.  The other two are now special purpose scopes that are not used very often.  I also have a 100 mm F4 tabletop Dob that I use as a loaner. 

 

I don't know if you would want to mount a AT102ED on your current scope.  I would suggest something more like an AT80ED.  Let the refractor handle the low power wide views and let the big scope handle the rest.  For quick grab and go you can put it on a sturdy tripod or telescope mount for use by itself. 

https://www.astronom...ractor-ota.html

 

 

 

Different types of Telescopes
https://telescopicwa...-of-telescopes/

Edited by aeajr, 27 January 2023 - 03:25 PM.