63 replies to this topic

[aeajr]

I am preparing a presentation for our club on how to help those new to the hobby.  What questions to ask and what kind of equipment to recommend.   I spend a lot of time helping new people at the club and on cloudy nights.  Lately I am thinking that I might be overlooking EAA as a valid entry point.

 

Naturally budget is a big driver but if we ignore budget for the moment, I was wondering what you thought of recommending EAA to newbies and, if so, what kind of equipment?

 

Up until now I have not suggested EAA to newbies.  I took a brief turn into EAA several years ago with the Revolution Imager 2 kit.  It worked fine but there was all these pieces and parts and wires and batteries and stuff.  Setup time started to become annoying.  If I wanted to capture stuff and do something with it, now I needed a computer and table and software and time to learn how to use it all.  It went back in the box and I stayed visual.

 

For this reason I have not considered EAA as a reasonable entry point and have not recommended it.   Now I am revisiting the question in terms of recommendations to newbies.

 

The other driver of what has brought this up is the emergence of the "smart telescopes" from Dwarf Labs, Vanos and Unistellar, and perhaps others I don't know about.   These seem to make EAA so easy that EAA might now be a valid entry point to the hobby rather than a visual only telescope.  Heck, the Dwarf II is only $400 right now and looks like it will blow away my 12" Dob for what I would be able to see.

 

If you add up all the pieces and parts one might bring together for an EAA system, the $2500 price of the Vespera or eQuinox might not look all that bad.  Or is my impresson wrong?

 

So, what do you think?  Is EAA a valid entry point to the astronomy hobby for someone who has nothing?  Or is this still too complex with too large of a learning curve?

 

Do these Smart Scopes cut it as entry level EAA scopes for newbies, assuming they have the budget?  

 

If you feel building your own EAA system from parts is a better recommendation than the smart scopes, what would you suggest?   I presume you can build up over time so the inital investment doesn't have to be for a full EAA system, but should consider the full path.

 

 

Thanks for any thoughts you might wish to share.   And feel free to point out how I might be looking at this the wrong way.

 

Note: Despite the vendor badge, I don't sell any of this stuff.  I don't sell anything so I am not trying to promote any products by asking this question.

Edited by aeajr, 03 February 2023 - 12:35 PM.

[DLuders]

In an urban location, EAA is certainly attractive.  That $395 Dwarf II Smart Telescope is a practical way of introducing Astronomy to urbanites!     

[havasman]

I'd think it a shame to have them not know what objects look like seen directly before showing it to them on an electronic display. But that's just me.

[vtornado]

I am not an EAA expert, I am just starting out.  I am just fustrated that I can't see much from my suburban back yard even with a 12 inch telescope.  I'm in Bortle 8+

 

I have gotten into this on a shoe string budget, because I am unsure how I would

like it.

 

130 f/5 newtonian reflector

CG4 eq mount

Single Axis Motor drive. (can use logic drive, but a better drive is easier)

1/2 inch chip astro camera.  (mono)

cheap lap top.

 

In about 2 minutes, I can get a pictue that blows away what I can see in the eyepiece.

My personality is such that I am not going to collect hours of data and post process it.

 

The hardest part is trying to see the object naked eye, to get it into the field of view.

A lot of even the brightest m objects.  are nearly invisible with a 130mm telescope.

I'm considering adding plate solving to the lap top to help with this.

 

I think??? an alt-az scope with tracking will work as well.  So if the person

already has an alt-az goto scope, no need to buy another scope/mount.

This person can simply buy the astro camera ($250) and try it.

 

Probably most people have a lap to laying around that can be pressed into service.

I bought a cheap one from the repair shop, because I did not want to use my good,

laptop with lots of important files on it outside, in fridid cold or high humidity.

 

If carefully chosen the EAA scope can become a grab and go.

 

I think a larger chip is better, but ... obviously more expensive, and it will

reveal the short comings of the telescope, such as field curvature or coma.

 

From a new-bee perspective it is not the same experiece as visual.

It is much more "left-brained'  technical, calculating.  I'm dealing with

polar alignment, gain, exposure time ... With visual you just look and enjoy

[MarMax]

Hello Ed. I've been away from visual observation for about two years and completely immersed in EAA. Knowing what I know now and looking at all the equipment I have gone through since starting this hobby in June 2020, I'd say EAA is and excellent way to introduce someone new to the hobby.

 

If you compare to the cost of several mid-range eyepieces, the cost of entry level EAA is not unreasonable IMO.

 

I'm sure you will get a lot of feedback and recommendations. This is a great forum in that regard. I'm in the SharpCap camp which requires a laptop or Mini-PC but there are many other ways to get started.

[steveincolo]

If someone is in a light polluted area and very highly motivated to view DSOs, then I think they'd have the patience to build their own system.  If less motivated or just eager to get going, then a smart scope seems right.  In between is a simple system with an ASIAir; a small refractor; a uncooled OSC camera like a 385 or 585, or an uncooled mono camera like a 178MM; and a small mount.  

[SchoolMaster]

Good to see you here in EAA Ed.

 

Simple EAA is, comparatively, inexpensive (to start with) and the ability to share easily what is being captured on a screen is a big plus.  I get a decent number of dog-walkers and passers-by, and even Amazon delivery drivers, who look at what I'm doing on my driveway.

 

Smart scopes do what they do very well.  It all depends on expectations.

 

This

 

 

is a poor capture of M42 using:  It's 60 x 5 sec subframes stacked with a laptop using SharpCap, but made a couple of days ago.

 

SkyWatcher StarTravel 102mm 50omm/f4.9 achromat.

Celestron STL mount.

ZWO 224MC camera.

 

The NexStar SLT 102 is quite similar, as is the SkyWatcher GTe, although I found the tripod to be too shaky, and with a capmera, they are both under $1000 or so.

 

I spent about three months learning in mid-late 2021 with this equipment.

 

There are some table-top dobs you could start with, or even skytrackers.

 

With GoTo and plate-solving, finding things is mostly handled with planetarium software, and the display expectations of EAA mean that a much cheaper mount can be used than AP demands, except for GoTo or computer control, the mount need not be any more robust than a visual set-up provided the wind is manageable.  There's a topic here in EAA on 1 minute total exposure captures, so you can see what can be done.

 

A single $400 to $600 camera can handle many things and a Celestron Zoom eyepiece and diagonal can do whatever visual is desirable.

 

Astronomic's AT refractors make a good quality entry point and with EAA, you can compensate for aperture with time.  One of my favorite OTA is a very wide-field Askar FMA180 which is a 40mm f/4.5, 180mm focal length astrograph, costing less than $400 that I have also used as a shaky hand-held monocular when fitted with my Zoom eyepiece.

 

EAA provides a variety of options depending on personal skills, expectation, and budget.

Edited by SchoolMaster, 03 February 2023 - 02:48 PM.

[cnbilbo]

The keyword in the Q is "Astronomy".  If you want people to learrn about whats is out there then the tech available today is better than its ever been and can be as cheap or as expensive as you like. Sky safari is a great tool whatever your interests.

 

The fully automated systems no doubt have a niche but offer no means of expansion or adaptability, and come at a price

 

The "Standard " route of EQ Mount, refractor, reasonably sized sensor & Sharcap is probably the best way to go as a long term solution.

As a low cost entry you could probably pick up a good Celestron SE mount (8" version needed) and small frac, for very little money. The ASI 585MC is looking like it could be a really good mid entry point camera. Add an ASI Air Pro and you can run the whole thing from a tablet with little or no setup time.

 

Light polution is going to be the main influence on the route you take.

 

I moved from many years with Big SCT's to a 72mm refractor and was bowled over by the results. I think my words were "Should've done this years ago"

 

Steve

[AnotherMoneyPit]

I'd think it a shame to have them not know what objects look like seen directly before showing it to them on an electronic display. But that's just me.

Me too. I'd lack some measure of appreciation for just how awesome the EAA experience is if I never had anything to compare it to. Thankfully it only took one night of contortion and eye strain to establish that baseline.

 

As far as we(my wife & I) go... EAA isn't 'A' way, it's 'THE' way, to be introduced to astronomy. Granted this is a personal observation, driven by numerous factors that may not apply to others. But if we had stopped at visual, I don't think it would have taken very long for our scope to start gathering dust. With EAA, our main challenge is finding time for all the other things we used to enjoy 

Edited by AnotherMoneyPit, 03 February 2023 - 07:53 PM.

[aeajr]

Thanks so much for the quick posts.

Anyone local to me is in Bortel 6-8 conditions.

Other than a laptop, I am assuming they have to buy everything else.

Is a 100 mm Achromat suitable i.e. does it have to be an ED refractor?

I presume a GoTo mount is almost required.

[vtornado]

Is a 100 mm Achromat suitable i.e. does it have to be an ED refractor?

Well you can see School Master's post above with an f/5 achro.  A lot of purple, but maybe that is ok?

I like his shot.  That would thrill me to get that.

 

A camera is about the f ratio, not the aperture.  80 f/7 ED can be had for $400, and I'm sure a lot

of the purple would be gone.  I also use a screw in focal reducer.  Probably not the best full frame,

but I am on a 1/2 chip.

 

I presume a GoTo mount is almost required.

Something that has tracking.  Could be a motorized EQ as well.  

I got my CG4 + motor for $200 used locally.

 

 

[SchoolMaster]

Thanks so much for the quick posts.

Anyone local to me is in Bortel 6-8 conditions.

Other than a laptop, I am assuming they have to buy everything else.

Is a 100 mm Achromat suitable i.e. does it have to be an ED refractor?

I presume a GoTo mount is almost required.

I live in Bortle 5-6.  With simple filters, EAA may be the ONLY answer on Bortle 8 and 9.

 

100mm achromat is sub-optimal because the inexpensive ones have comparatively poor focusers.  That is the primary limitation of them, along with CA.

 

However, in the long run, a 102mm achromat CAN do decent narrowband, say Ha.

 

This is a narrowband capture, with a color camera (my mono was on strike) using the same kit as the first broadband capture.  You can see how much it has cleaned up the stars.  3secs instead of one handles the loss of photons theough the 7nm Ha filter.

 

This is 20 x 3 second subs, so only one minute total exposure.

 

 

The AT72EDII is an excellent, budget ($550), ED refractor that can do some visual, be carried on a light mount, and is good enough to keep forever.  Its best targets are also some of the most spectacular for a beginner, and you can do planets too.

 

Tracking is essential, but Alt-Az is fine because sub length is often short.  GoTo and plate-solving make things EASY (most of the time )

Edited by SchoolMaster, 03 February 2023 - 03:24 PM.

[steveincolo]

Thanks so much for the quick posts.

Anyone local to me is in Bortel 6-8 conditions.

Other than a laptop, I am assuming they have to buy everything else.

Is a 100 mm Achromat suitable i.e. does it have to be an ED refractor?

I presume a GoTo mount is almost required.

There's another robotic scope out there, sorry I don't remember the name, but it is a combination Mak and 50mm achromat.  You can swap the camera from one to the other.  The widefield achromat images show blue star bloat (and correspondingly got a derisive reception in one of the Deep Sky Imaging forums), but they give a decent view.  

 

A tracking mount is key to getting sufficiently long exposures.  For example, you could use a dob on a non goto equatorial platform.  There are some people who try EAA with extremely short exposures on a non-tracking mount, but it looks frustrating to me.  

[GGK]

I'm visual only and have never seen an EAA set-up, but I actually think it would be a disservice to the group not discussing EAA as an expansion to visual astronomy when starting out.  My kids and grandkids don't think twice when they see screens, wires and batteries.  They were raised with them.  

 

When I first showed my son a GoTo mount a couple of years ago, he wondered why they weren't all that way.  He's 33 and he considered a manual mount as something old that I just liked to use.  He fully understood that I liked it and that it might be fun after being in the hobby for a while, but he didn't understand why someone would not buy a GoTo mount (or at least push-to with a tablet) right away unless for budget reasons. 

 

I think the same really applies to EAA today for many people.  If the audience is already comfortable with the electronic and automated world, I think they will expect to hear about the latest technology used to enjoy the hobby and will likely consider that as a possible starting point if it's within their budget.

 

I know that I read a lot of posts from people who can't find targets visually due to light pollution, and that has to be a real hobby killer.

 

Gary

[BrentKnight]

The smart scopes are a great idea.  Their greatest strength is their ease of use.  Unfortunately if the EAA bug takes root, the smart scopes might not provide enough.  And then you are stuck with an expensive piece of hardware that might not be used much, while more resources are spent on more capable systems.

 

Just like visual, there is no getting around the EAA learning curve.  And it makes more sense to start off with equipment that will work with EAA rather than trying to go cheap and then getting frustrated.  The learning curve and the costs are generally much less with EAA than with traditional AP, so for a beginner it's a much better path to start on.

 

A small refractor on a Go2 EQ mount with a nice CMOS camera is not unreasonable (the mount or camera likely being the most expensive parts).  Worst case, the parts can be resold if the interest really isn't there.

[Mark Lovik]

The real need for introducing EAA to some beginners is the cost (time, expense, effort) to get initial success viewing the sky.  The first success is normally enough to make enthusiastic converts.  It happened to me, and it is a common theme of new EAA users on this forum.

 

I tried to view M51 visually in fairly dark B5 suburban skies.  I tried everything over a 2 month period since I wanted to really see galaxies.  I still know the magnified star fields around M51 like the back of my hand.  Just never could see the galaxy -- ever.   Later in B1 skies in NM -- not a problem -- but that is a different story.

 

So I cobbled up the cheapest system I could think of to see M51.

• game controllers, beater CG5 mount, retrofit belt drive electronics, old laptop, and junk galore
• purchased a modest AT72EDii scope, and ASI78mm camera by looking at images on the EAA forums.  Cobbled an image train using a Barlow body to extend the focus range, and mounted the camera like an eyepiece.
• Purchased SharpCap license - it's really cheap
• No reducer at this time -- reducers and backspacing was black magic .. and the reducer was not in stock for the scope.

If this wouldn't work -- I would give up trying to observe deep sky objects and would likely give up looking at the sky.  Funny thing is:

1. I could image stars my first night with the camera.  Had no idea where I was viewing, but near the milky way it was a rich star field, away from the milky way there were fewer stars.  I had no focusing mask - just played around until things worked.
2. Did all sorts of strange things to view M51 the next night - mostly visually aligning the mount and visually placing M51 in the field of view.  I could not see the galaxy visually - but really knew the star background where it should be.  It worked first time (below) .. could obviously see M51 in the first 10 seconds.

 

There are lots of stories in the EAA forum like this.  I didn't need to travel to see galaxies - they were visible in my backyard.  I have gone a bit crazy since then ... but I now know what is possible to see in the sky and a huge list of deep sky objects and object types that interest me.

 

I like in a suburban light polluted sky but can now get good images during a full moon.  

 

Most people who bounce away from EAA do it because:

• frustrations getting a first working EAA view of the sky
• starting with a complicated system that makes EAA artificially difficult (large scope, small camera, an undermounted scope, using a camera instead of a simple astro-camera, ...).
• uncomfortable with computers and setup of electronic systems (if you hate goto systems, or equatorial mounts because they are too much work ... you may not like EAA).  Here the packaged systems are the only realistic alternative.

Edited by Mark Lovik, 03 February 2023 - 04:30 PM.

[cnbilbo]

Thanks so much for the quick posts.

Anyone local to me is in Bortel 6-8 conditions.

Other than a laptop, I am assuming they have to buy everything else.

Is a 100 mm Achromat suitable i.e. does it have to be an ED refractor?

I presume a GoTo mount is almost required.

If the achro's not been used for baseball practice then there's no reason not to give it try. As long as you can see what you want see, Comet C/2022 E3 being a great example, who care's if the colour is a little off.

 

One of the items on my  "To Do" list this year is a doing it on the cheap test of an old blue tube Skywatcher 102 on the evolution mount (practically the same as the SE mount). If by some miracle the sky clears, the winds drop and the temp stays above freezing I'll rush it forward.

 

A goto mount really is a must if you want to maintain attention.

 

Steve

Edited by cnbilbo, 03 February 2023 - 04:21 PM.

[BrentKnight]

I think part of the fun (and the challenge) is to see what can be done for the least amount of cost and complexity.  Knowing what type of equipment works, and what type of equipment to avoid makes all the difference - and buying used helps even more.

 

AP has a well deserved reputation for being a money pit - EAA does not have to be.

[Mark Lovik]

If I started over - many things would be the same, but there are some good inexpensive alternatives:

 

You want a simple but reliable start - a place to learn without spending too much.

 

1. Something like a near APO scope (AT70, AT80) is a good alternative starter scope.   I think the AT72EDii or equivalent scope is a great way to start, but there are cheaper options that are nearly as capable.

2. More capable, with only the addition of collimation - a smaller reflector like the Quattro 150P

 

Monochrome is still a great start, but something like the ASI585 camera is a good alternative.

 

SharpCap is great for starting, if you are uncomfortable with PC software, drivers, and installing stuff .. the ASI Air is a good alternative to get early success.

 

The main issue here is getting a reasonable mount for the optics. 

• A midsized goto mount is a good suggestion
• Some peope repurpose things like the Celestron SE mount with a small refractor
• There have been interesting use on the EAA forums using scopes like the SkyWatcher Heritage table top scopes -- scope and mount under $500.  There seems to be some fiddling involved, but surprising results and EAA images have been shown in this forum.

[Cbchhaya]

I had a very good experience recently trading off long exposures for something expedient.

I have a remote setup in NM and I’d captured an image of E3 that my 10 y/o showed off to his friends, and now they wanted to see the comet with their own eyes. A number of parents reached out saying they’ve heard of this and their kid talks of it and asking if I would be able to show them.

With my ASI533 and FRA300 and a UV/IR cut filter, I used ASIAir to locate the comet one night. Seeing that it does indeed show up, I setup a zoom session with the kids next evening and shared my iPad screen. Needless to say they were stunned, and frankly so was I.

There’s no way in hell that from my backyard just by Meadowlands stadium that I would’ve captured anything significant, while controlling noise and gradients and what not, if I tried to guide and image. Not to mention kids can’t wait for anything good 🙂. With a simple screen share, no one cared. Their joy at seeing the comet live (with a bonus of 10min stack of 10s at M42) meant the whole world to me, more than a pristine capture from a Bortle 1 location.

Guess what? Last night those kids were over at my place and got to learn about telescopes and cameras and eyepieces and the works. We even saw Jupiter through my SW100ED and a 7mm eyepiece with 2x Barlow. The bands were spectacular!

So I guess my point is - EAA is the Perfect way to introduce astronomy and get people excited. NJAG conducts amazing viewing nights usually in Montclair Uni campus and EAA is what attracts people.

Of course I am veering towards EAA because weather doesn’t permit AP but the expediency factor is still true. So you can either start a new rig with minimal cost and avoid precision mounts etc, or you could repurpose what you have.

[Tfer]

The only ‘mistake’ I experienced in beginning EAA was in trying to shoehorn a DSLR into it: the ASCOM drivers are buggy and incredibly frustrating. What worked yesterday may or may not work today.

 

However when it DID work, it was a game changer with regards to my observing.

 

As soon as I purchased my ASI294MC, all the headaches went away and I’ve spent more time with my scope in the last 2 years than I had using an eyepiece in the previous 10.

SharpCap has matured as a platform, to the point that it can do anything I ask of it, from all scope controls to imaging demands. If you stumble across something you’d like to see added, a quick post in the SharpCap forum will have Robin looking for a way to add it.

 

I’ll never regret using eyepieces for the first 30 years of my observing, but I don’t think I’ll ever use one again. 

[Xio1996]

The answer is yes! EAA is the only way to start and proceed. Drops mike and exits stage, pursued by a bear. 

[aeajr]

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Of course I have no idea what most of the stuff mentioned is.

[mjritchie]

I would respond to say yes.
Like seriously yes.
Most people live in areas where “normal” astronomy to see deep sky objects is a nearly impossible task. EAA has allowed me to see things from my bortle 7 backyard with a 70mm scope that I can barely make out with my 12” SCT.
As far as cost goes. You can do EAA on a budget. Any RFT + any semi decent camera should give good results. As long as it can plate solve in sharp cap you should be good to go. The most difficult part of my EAA journey has been getting targets in the field of view. Once that is achieved the rest is just amazing.

Just my .02, and good luck.

[artik]

As somebody who enters the field of EAA due to light pollution, at least from my experience... hell no. And I explain why?

 

Why visual:

 

1. Even under bortle 8 given any kind of basic automation and even not-large scope 102 or even less you can see a lot - huge amount of open and even globular clusters, planets, moon that aren't suitable for EAA. Andromeda, Orion Nebula (also not that impressive as under Bortle 3) and with some experience and narrow-band Oiii or UHC filters you can catch some nebula.

2. The key is simplicity - easy AZ setup, just point and observe 

3. Immediate and confidence building results

 

Why not EAA from the start for average observer

 

1. You need highly complicated goto mount that can bring me more sweat and tears than most hobby-killer class wobbly mount I had power bank issues, power-supply I had to upgrade firmware to prevent my AZ GTi from freezing (after I tried everything and already wanted to apply warranty - but got FW upgrade suggestion from the store) 

2. Lots of learning about image processing and live stacking, stretching etc

3. Precise alignment (since usually sensor's for is much smaller than of eyepiece)

4. Operating astro-camera has its own set of issues problems and techniques that need to be learned (optimal gain, exposure)

 

I was overwhelmed by amount of issues and after I had several years experience of visual observation and thought what am I doing wasting my time instead of just pointing and observing.

 

So no, I don't thing starting for EAA is good idea - go though visual simple visual setup and point and observe, after go to the AP/EAA rabbit hole if you want to