63 replies to this topic

[oneuke]

+1 re: have options that didn't exist 15 years ago. I am grateful to all the astronomy club members that shared their time, knowledge, and scopes. Now, I have a full eaa setup that has evolved over time.  It depends on expectations.  Viewing the planets and moon thru an eyepiece is still more interesting than seeing it on a tablet/pc.  I think our brains can pick out the best moment of seeing when we focus our attention in the eyepiece. If someone wants to experience the milky way and stars, then there is no substitute for going to dark skies and viewing objects with binoculars.  However,  if someone wants to see galaxy detail and nebula then eaa is the best (in light pollution only) way to observe.  So is it eaa a reasonable recommendation for someone getting started in astronomy?  Yes.  Should you show them other options?  Yes.

[Mark Lovik]

To emphasize

 

1. EAA really works and changes what can be seen in light polluted skies

2. The current setups many of us use are not appropriate for everybody. EAA is likely not an option:

• If you are not comfortable with software or computers (really true if you can't find a mentor)
• If the idea of an equatorial mount is scary (this is an indicator ... not a technology)
• If a goto Dob sounds scary
• If goto star alignment sounds scary
• If you only want to consider a pre-configured system, ready to view the sky out of the box.

3. The all in one EAA rigs are currently a bit limiting, but provide a viable option for those identified in #2.

• These systems are interesting, and should drastically improve over time

4. Starting EAA can be much easier and cheaper than starting Astrophotography.  The focus is to interactively look at the sky with EAA - not to finally generate a pretty picture days later.  So the main focus of EAA is just like visual -- observe the sky.

5. Also realize there is a steep learning curve to visual.  This is made much more difficult under heavier light pollution.  

6. Visual (DSO viewing) under light polluted skies is boring (and unnecessarily difficult).  I have shown deep sky wonders to many people visually under moderate light pollution -- with a universal response of ... this is all you can see with all this equipment.

Edited by Mark Lovik, 04 February 2023 - 09:24 PM.

[amitshesh]

I will add that go to star alignment on alt az mounts was tricky for me to be accurate with. It is too finicky and dependent on things like level perfectly, center the star perfectly etc.

Platesolving has changed that for me. Set down the mount, either do 1 star alignment or polar align, and then let platesolve take over. Some systems are better to use than others but overall it is easier. I used stellarmate that had other problems but the platesolving was better than anything else I have experienced, even better than as tap and sharp cap. I think asiair works like that too but i have no direct experience with it.

[amitshesh]

To the OP: since you have not had direct experience with eaa, if you can, get together with somebody who does eaa. There is no substitute to seeing and touching it. With your experience in astronomy you will get a good feel of what works, what doesn’t and how to explain things to a newbie.

[aeajr]

Once again I thank you all for your experience and insights.

You have given me a lot to think about.

[jprideaux]

Once again I thank you all for your experience and insights.

You have given me a lot to think about.

Since you have ordered the Dwarf2, you will soon get first-hand answers to all your own questions. You will be able to see what the experience is with mainly interacting with a device through a software program (in this case an app) instead of manually pointing, manually turning knobs and such. It is a different experience. The first couple times you use it, you will get a feel for what a newbie would also experience and whether they would get frustrated or get sone early successes. Then over the next couple months of using it (through a couple moon cycles), you can see how it performs after you understand it better and get it dialed in. Perhaps travel with it to a darker site, etc.

So kudos to you for actually ordering one to find-out for yourself. There is nothing like finding out for yourself.

[aeajr]

I am looking foward to getting the Dwarf II unit.  I hope I have it in time for the presentation in March.   They say these are shipping in February but who knows how long it will take to get to me.  They did tell me they have a USA warehouse.  Cool!  I see on the Facebook page they mention a Brooklyn NY location but I don't know if that is the warehouse. 

 

 

In any case, the focus of this was to understand and maybe come up with a reasonable kit, buy list, a newbie would need to make an EAA rig, how much would it cost and how much effort to get it to work.  The benefit of this approach, over the smart telescope approach, is that this list of parts can also be used visually. 

 

My only EAA experience is with the Revolution Imager 2 system which is about $300 so that would be my starting point.  There were many references in this thread to pieces and parts that I have never heard of.   I don't know what they are for or what they cost.  And I would certainly no try to build a kit list from what is in this thread. 

 

I am assuming they have a laptop, tablet or smartphone that would be needed.  this would be my build.  

 

• GoTo scope
• RI 2 Kit
• Basic eyepiece set for visual

Optional

• Some kind of software

 

Maybe one of these Goto scopes would be an acceptible starting point.  I have kept them all at 130 mm/5" so that the scope is small enough to be portable but has enough aperture that it can be used visualy with success.  I don't think the RI2 camera would be much of a burden on the mount. 

 

 

Skywatcher GTi 130 P - $435

https://www.highpoin...obsonian-s21210

 

Or

 

Celestron NexStar 130 SLT  $590

https://www.revolutionimager.com/

 

Or 

 

Celestron AstroFi 130 Wifi Telescope - $560

https://www.highpoin...telescope-22203

 

Add a Celestron Zoom and 2X Barlow for a starting visual experience - $140

https://agenaastro.c...arlow-lens.html

lhttps://www.highpoin...-eyepiece-93230

 

Visual package - $575 to $730

 

Now tack on the EAA package

 

Based on my limited knowledge I will use the RI2 kit as the base EAA package. 

 

RI 2 Kit - $300

https://www.revolutionimager.com/

 

 

$875 to $1,030 for an entry level visual/EAA system built from parts.

 

As I understand it, that is all that would be needed to get something up on the included screen   I believe the camera can do up to 5 second exposures and up to 6 stacks in the camera.   I have the earlier verson of this that did 5 stacks.  I did see staking benefits. 

 

If you want to capture the images you can get their DVR for $100 or hook up to a laptop.  I think an analog to digital converter is needed ($30?) and then you need software on the computer to capture the images.  I see Sharpcap mentioned often.   I am not sure if anything else is needed.  Stacking software?  Editing software?   But as a purely entry level EAA  system, the scope and the kit is all that is needed.

 

Now, I am sure others here would suggest different combinations of hardware and software than I have.  Some have, but I just don't know the products they mention in order to build a package with confidence to included the scope, camera, needed cables, adapters, interfaces, batteries and such.   If someone wants to give me a comprehensive build list, similar to what I have done above, that would be great. 

 

We can assume the user has a laptop or tablet or smartphone, as needed, so we won't include that in the parts list or cost.

 

 

Compare this to a fully integrated and automated EAA system for a beginner. 

 

Dwarf II for $485 (delux kit) - limited visual.  Primarily EAA only,for DSO and the Moon.  I don't think it does Planets.

https://dwarflab.com/

 

Vaonis Vespira - $2500 - limited visual, EAA for DSO, the Moon and I think this one can do planets

https://vaonis.com/vespera

 

Unistellar eQuinox 2 - $2500 - limited visual, EAA for DSO, the Moon and I think this one can do planets

https://www.unistell...hBoCtzAQAvD_BwE

 

The smart scopes should be easier to use BUT, no very limited visual capability.  The Dwarf doesn't do planets so you might have to add $300 for a visual scope.   

 

 

Any thoughts?  Anyone want to build and price me a Newbie starter package?

Edited by aeajr, 05 February 2023 - 11:51 AM.

[artik]

Question:

 

Don't you have according to your signature "Meade ETX 80 GoTo Refractor"

 

It is fast F/5 refractor with 80mm that is more than enough for EAA to start with and what is more important short focal length that is much more forgiving.

 

All you need is decent camera to start with. I personally have AZ GTi + 60/400 refactor and 224mc (I wanted other but got it really cheap 2nd hand so I couldn't pass).

 

I would take ASI178MC that has decent FOV and will be more forgiving in locating targets.

 

Once you have a camera you can start on your own, learn software, stacking and many other goodies. Ignore that it is Alt-Az - this is fine for EAA, ignore that it is achromat - you can still get started and learn concepts (and enjoy the process).

 

Skywatcher GTi 130 P - $435

Celestron NexStar 130 SLT  $590

Celestron AstroFi 130 Wifi Telescope - $560

While all these are fine scopes they all come with at least ~650mm FL. That means to get any reasonable FOV you need a large sensor, and large sensor aren't cheap.

 

There is a good reason to start EAA with small FL scope - everything is simpler.

 

Now take my comment regrading these above with a grain of salt because I'm only starting there

Edited by artik, 05 February 2023 - 12:07 PM.

[kasprowy]

It's better to learn the sky and how things relate. If you just want to punch coordinates in and look, you can easily get a tremendously better picture off of the web. You'll never match the view of Hubble / Keck but you'll have the enjoyment of tracking it down on your own.

[MarMax]

trim

 

Any thoughts?  Anyone want to build and price me a Newbie starter package?

I can't believe I deleted my post. Need more coffee. Here we go again.

 

Celestron NexStar 102 SLT - $640

ZWO ASI585MC - $400

Misc. Parts - $200

 

You can run this scope with WiFi but I like the good old USB approach. Miscellaneous parts will be camera adapters, UV/IR filter, cables and a Bahtinov mask.

 

I run my CPC 1100 via USB cable and really like it. CPWI (free) for mount control, ASCOM and SharpCap. Just do a 2-star manual alignment with CPWI/SharpCap and you are ready to go. There's more software you'll need to install for plate solving but it's all free, and you don't need it initially if you do a good 2-star alignment.

 

EDITED to say the whole setup costs less than a Zeiss Primo Star (or Baader Mark V) binoviewer.

Edited by MarMax, 05 February 2023 - 12:39 PM.

[BrentKnight]

I'd probably go with something more purpose built for use with a camera.

 

Sky-Watcher AZ-GTi ($475)

Astro-Tech AT60ED ($369)

ZWO ASI585MC ($399)

 

Without resorting to a mount/telescope combination (more suited to visual than EAA) individual part choices can be swapped up or down.

 

• I've not used an AZ-GTi, but have heard good things about it.  There may be cheaper mounts with similar capabilities but I think this one checks all the boxes.  It can also be upgraded to EQ mode for an additional cost.
• The AT60ED is well matched for size on the AZ-GTi and it is built for EAA.  A focal reducer/field flattener is also available for it.  It may not be the best choice for smaller targets like planetaries or small galaxies, but there really is no one-scope-to-rule them all.  Refractors are also a joy to use for EAA.
• I've not used the ASI585MC, but it is reviewed well and has a good FOV that will allow many DSO to fit and should work well with platesolve/sync.  A UV/IR filter would be useful along with a dual-band filter, but they are not necessary.

This is a setup that I would not mind using myself (if I didn't already have a couple rigs). 

 

I'd also recommend a mount side control device - either an ASIair or a miniPC even if they already have a laptop.  Another great advantage of EAA is that it can be done while you are inside and the telescope is outside.  I started without this upgrade, so it's definitely something that can be added later.

 

If you are concerned about the small aperture of the 60mm, here is an example of what is possible with a 40mm one (doing EAA, no post and using an H-alpha filter with a monochrome camera).

 

 

M78, Barnard's Loop and the area around Alnitak

[BrentKnight]

It's better to learn the sky and how things relate. If you just want to punch coordinates in and look, you can easily get a tremendously better picture off of the web. You'll never match the view of Hubble / Keck but you'll have the enjoyment of tracking it down on your own.

I hear this a lot, and it's not an unreasonable path to follow.  I would love to hear if you have actually done any EAA yourself though.

 

Just consider though, with EAA there are thousands and thousands of targets that are within reach (even from very poor, light polluted locations) - pretty much anything plotted on SkySafari 7 Pro.  Platesolve and sync make it possible to find them (and capture them for observation).  If your goal is to star hop, then have at it - there is fun in finding a path to a target with just your telescope and a chart.  But there really is no reason to be forced to star hop when your goal is to see objects as best as you can. 

 

EAA is an observational activity - it is not about getting Hubble like images.  I use it to discover things I would never see with just a telescope and an eyepiece.  I found a supernova remnant that was hidden away under a carpet of stars - I don't believe this particular one has ever been fully observed visually.  I have seen it on all-sky surveys, but I don't believe there is a Hubble image of it.  And your statement that you can get a tremendously better picture off the web could just as easily be applied to visual - why bother observing when it's all on the web?  An EAA capture is your observation of your chosen target.  We all like to share those observations with a nice capture, but that's not the point is it...

[kasprowy]

I hear this a lot, and it's not an unreasonable path to follow. I would love to hear if you have actually done any EAA yourself though.

Just consider though, with EAA there are thousands and thousands of targets that are within reach (even from very poor, light polluted locations) - pretty much anything plotted on SkySafari 7 Pro. Platesolve and sync make it possible to find them (and capture them for observation). If your goal is to star hop, then have at it - there is fun in finding a path to a target with just your telescope and a chart. But there really is no reason to be forced to star hop when your goal is to see objects as best as you can.

EAA is an observational activity - it is not about getting Hubble like images. I use it to discover things I would never see with just a telescope and an eyepiece. I found a supernova remnant that was hidden away under a carpet of stars - I don't believe this particular one has ever been fully observed visually. I have seen it on all-sky surveys, but I don't believe there is a Hubble image of it. And your statement that you can get a tremendously better picture off the web could just as easily be applied to visual - why bother observing when it's all on the web? An EAA capture is your observation of your chosen target. We all like to share those observations with a nice capture, but that's not the point is it...

To each their own. The original question was as to whether or not to start with EAA. That's what I answered. As for myself, I'd never do EAA or AP, and I live in Bortle 8/9. Seems like an incredible expense in money and time. It's like climbing the mountain and looking, vs lugging a bunch of expensive photo equipment up to the summit and taking pix that cannot compare to the professional shots. I get out to Bortle 4/5 every so often, and Bortle 1 once per year. For me, that's good.

Edited by kasprowy, 05 February 2023 - 03:29 PM.

[alphatripleplus]

Moderator Note:

 

Okay everyone, in spite of earlier warnings, we have drifted off topic again, away from the OP's original question. This topic has run its course.