12 replies to this topic

[TheNewGP]

I just received my new CEM40EC and have just been doing dry-runs in my living room. This is my first iOptron mount so I'm not familiar at all with the interface. I've been struggling to find where basic things like "One-Star Alignment" are on the hand controller. Looking through the menu tree in the manual (which is for the 8407 HC, but I can't find an updated one) it should, obviously, be under alignment. However, I only have "Position of Polaris" and "Polar Align Iterate" options there. Pic attached. 

 

I went ahead and updated the firmware to 220301.bin which I believe is the newest. See second attached pics for individual FW versions. 

 

Am I doing something wrong, or is there something I need to do before the other options will appear?

 

My main issue is that the mount is behaving like my AVX would if I did not do a Quick Align, where the mount is essentially indicating it has no calibration when trying to do things with it from the PC. I tried slewing and syncing to a random star and even after doing a sync (but not a platesolve since I'm inside) I can't load any calibration data in Commander (9.0.5) it just shows an error dialog. 

 

I haven't tried doing anything with iPolar yet. Is that required? 

 

I suppose, overall, this isn't a huge issue as I'll be running everything through N.I.N.A. and I assume it will be able to slew and platesolve and do what it needs to do, but it would still be nice to run any kind of alignment from the HC for the times when I'm not doing that (like when livestreaming from phone/eyepiece projection which is somewhat often) and it seems like something that shouldn't be missing. 

 

Any thoughts and suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance! 

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[phemmert]

I have a brand-new CEM70, updated to the latest firmware right away, just now noticed the same thing. I haven't been outside with a clear view of the sky for GPS signal, though it has the right coordinates. I sent an inquiry to iOptron, have you heard anything from them?

[TheNewGP]

Haven't heard anything from support yet. I was going to post a link to the iOptron groups thread but I see you replied there already. I checked mine with and without GPS, and waited for it to go from ON to OK but no difference. Also tried making sure it was at zero position, manually resetting zero position, etc. 

 

Hopefully they get enough support emails to look into it...

[TheNewGP]

Support got back to me. Apparently, it's a "feature" not a bug. If any iOptron owners (it seems) want to keep star alignment, don't upgrade firmware. 

Overall, I suppose they are right and I will probably hardly use the HC, but new documentation would be nice haha. 

[Cliff Halliwell]

Support got back to me. Apparently, it's a "feature" not a bug. If any iOptron owners (it seems) want to keep star alignment, don't upgrade firmware. 

Overall, I suppose they are right and I will probably hardly use the HC, but new documentation would be nice haha. 

nomoreSA.jpg

Interesting.  I have been looking at the new strain wave mounts, in particular the HAE29 (with an 8409 hand controller) and in perusing the manual realizing the various alignment routines were not there.  Just go-to and sync.  Looks like it is across the product lines. I always thought that multi-star alignment is important for accurate go-to across the sky as it ‘models’ the sky and accounts for modest degrees of ‘cone error’ and non-orthogonality of axes.  I suspect that there will be more need for local bright star syncs for accurate go-to in nearby regions.  

[AdrianW]

Not sure if I understand this correctly, or maybe just my brain doesn't want to understand the new reality.

 

One of my best local observing sites is in the back garden of my parents in law: dark site but no view of polaris. I was thinking about the HAE29 for portability, I do visual/AP 50/50. I even thought about the expensive EC version, being close to an airport I keep my exposures relatively short and do most AP unguided anyway. But without a proper multi star alignment in the HC, does it basically mean that I have to take my full kit always (guidescope, guidecam, RPi with EKOS) to do PA with or without a view of polaris? Probably even for visual?

 

What do they mean with just goto and sync? How can I do a goto that's even remotely close to target, if I just align the mount northwards with a compass?

[rgsalinger]

If you are imaging, just focus the system, polar align the mount and then use plate solving to get targets dead center in your camera's FOV. That's probably why they eliminated the multi star alignments. If the PA routine in the HC doesn't support polar alignment when you can't see the pole, use different software (sorry but there's really no other answer). 

 

If you are not an imager then I'm not sure what the answer is beyond using a finder scope and centering a nearby star and then peforming a Sync to Target on it. I hope that they have not removed that from the manual. Before we had robust platesolving I had to do this every time with my long focal length scopes at star parties. Even a 3 star alignment wasn't enough. 

 

If you have cone error sufficient to prevent your finder from being able to capture a bright star then you really need to shim the OTA. I agree with both of you that it was foolish to eliminate this but I can see why they might have thought it was unnecessary. 

 

Rgrds-Ross

[Tapio]

Even if I almost never do 1 to 3 star alignment anymore (just do it with my travel mount) I find it very odd if they really removed it.

[Cliff Halliwell]

If you are imaging, just focus the system, polar align the mount and then use plate solving to get targets dead center in your camera's FOV. That's probably why they eliminated the multi star alignments. If the PA routine in the HC doesn't support polar alignment when you can't see the pole, use different software (sorry but there's really no other answer). 

 

If you are not an imager then I'm not sure what the answer is beyond using a finder scope and centering a nearby star and then peforming a Sync to Target on it. I hope that they have not removed that from the manual. Before we had robust platesolving I had to do this every time with my long focal length scopes at star parties. Even a 3 star alignment wasn't enough. 

 

If you have cone error sufficient to prevent your finder from being able to capture a bright star then you really need to shim the OTA. I agree with both of you that it was foolish to eliminate this but I can see why they might have thought it was unnecessary. 

 

Rgrds-Ross

I tried my new HAE29 out in alt-az mode, first with my Vixen ED102SS and later with my Celestron Edge HD 8.  With the Vixen and a Rigel red dot finder for helping do that first alignment with a bright star and then sync to eyepiece alignment I found it worked fine.  With the narrow FOV of the Edge I had to go old school initially: Telrad then optical finder then eyepiece and more syncs then reasonable go-to. So, workable. It is possible that any 3 star alignment might have led to similar results.  So, I don’t think one can sync and get great go-to in a far different part of the sky.  

 

Since I do have a North view I am leaning in the direction of starting up, going to the zero position (scope vertical) then go-to Polaris, then sync on Polaris then off to a bright star where I want to observe and then another sync and then go-to.

[AdrianW]

If you are imaging, just focus the system, polar align the mount and then use plate solving to get targets dead center in your camera's FOV. That's probably why they eliminated the multi star alignments. If the PA routine in the HC doesn't support polar alignment when you can't see the pole, use different software (sorry but there's really no other answer). 

 

If you are not an imager then I'm not sure what the answer is beyond using a finder scope and centering a nearby star and then peforming a Sync to Target on it. I hope that they have not removed that from the manual. Before we had robust platesolving I had to do this every time with my long focal length scopes at star parties. Even a 3 star alignment wasn't enough. 

 

If you have cone error sufficient to prevent your finder from being able to capture a bright star then you really need to shim the OTA. I agree with both of you that it was foolish to eliminate this but I can see why they might have thought it was unnecessary. 

 

Rgrds-Ross

OK so if I understand its just three steps: 1. point the mount north as good as you can, 2. goto a bright star in the region where you want yo observe, 3. adjust and sync, done.

 

But the advertisement for the HAE29EC version "many will choose to image sans guiding". Probably this will only work, if you do short exposures only, or polar align properly with external computer and camera. But if I need to bring my RPi and guidecam, what's the point of going "sans guiding"? Was hoping the hand controller would offer enough options to get a really simple and light portable set-up, accurate enough for some imaging. I don't see the benefit in spending 1300 extra for the EC version now. Unless I'm missing something here.

[rgsalinger]

Well,  I seriously doubt that you can just assume that their marketing language is some kind of blanket guarantee that "unguided" imaging is going to work for you or anyone else. If you have good enough PA and good enough weather and go with some kind of short focal length scope and shortish exposures it will probably work. Other than that, I would be using my guiding system with that mount or any other mount in that price class. The encoders help with tracking and will allow you to have a better chance of being able to go unguided.

 

Rgrds-Ross

[TheNewGP]

OK so if I understand its just three steps: 1. point the mount north as good as you can, 2. goto a bright star in the region where you want yo observe, 3. adjust and sync, done.

But the advertisement for the HAE29EC version "many will choose to image sans guiding". Probably this will only work, if you do short exposures only, or polar align properly with external computer and camera. But if I need to bring my RPi and guidecam, what's the point of going "sans guiding"? Was hoping the hand controller would offer enough options to get a really simple and light portable set-up, accurate enough for some imaging. I don't see the benefit in spending 1300 extra for the EC version now. Unless I'm missing something here.

I definitely see your concerns. I think making sure your polar alignment is good (the PA alignment routune is still there, fwiw I've never used it) and possibly an eyepiece with a cross hair/reticle so that when it slews to an object, you can perfectly center it and then do the sync will be the best bet. I do find it to be relatively accurate after doing a sync even with a quick, not perfect polar align. Then I just make any needed adjustments in the quide scope. This is only when I'm doing visual though, for imaging I always have at least an ASIAir.

[Cliff Halliwell]

OK so if I understand its just three steps: 1. point the mount north as good as you can, 2. goto a bright star in the region where you want yo observe, 3. adjust and sync, done.

 

But the advertisement for the HAE29EC version "many will choose to image sans guiding". Probably this will only work, if you do short exposures only, or polar align properly with external computer and camera. But if I need to bring my RPi and guidecam, what's the point of going "sans guiding"? Was hoping the hand controller would offer enough options to get a really simple and light portable set-up, accurate enough for some imaging. I don't see the benefit in spending 1300 extra for the EC version now. Unless I'm missing something here.

Go-to ability is one thing.  Guiding is different.  

 

Go-to is about accurately finding and framing the object one wishes to capture. Not the end of the world if one is initially off, as a framing exposure will show this.  But, at long focal lengths it can be tricky: trying to sight through a drinking straw.
 

Accurate tracking is another thing.  It needs to be accurate for astrophotography.  It can likely be done with accurate polar alignment and an EC mount.  It is easier with a shorter focal length telescope.  If one cannot do that, then good polar alignment with guiding do the trick. 
 

If one wants to keep a field setup simple I think it can still be done without EC on a mount, thanks to ASIAir.  Adding a guide scope, a small guide camera and an ASIAir (maybe the Mini one) would not add much to a kit that already consists of a scope, a mount, a main camera and a battery.  And, the extra, up-front expense would not be more than adding EC to a mount.  All one needs extra is a smart phone or tablet.
 

YouTube videos in ASIAir would show you what it offers in quick polar alignment (perhaps even without a view of Polaris!), accurate go-to through ‘plate solving’ and guiding and camera control.  One might be able to dispense with finders even!
 

This is what I have set myself up with, but thanks to the least clear weather in Ontario in many decades this Winter, have yet to try.