208 replies to this topic

[Forward Scatter]

wow. I dug deeper into the Jeremy Joseph Christian (train attacker) affair, and it gives a chilling reminder of what is possible.

 

You did exactly right; the precursor you described looked like it might parallel what happened there.

 

Bob

I really hated to bring up disturbing and tragic events to an otherwise mostly humorous thread. Coupled with the yahoos in hopped-up 4X4s with the big nighttime deer hunting light bars who cruise repeatedly through the parking area of our local state park dark site we use, just to "own" us after dark, heading out there is not really enjoyable experience. At least the last winter storm we had knocked down a lot of the trees surrounding our house, improving the horizons!

[Bob Campbell]

I really hated to bring up disturbing and tragic events to an otherwise mostly humorous thread. Coupled with the yahoos in hopped-up 4X4s with the big nighttime deer hunting light bars who cruise repeatedly through the parking area of our local state park dark site we use, just to "own" us after dark, heading out there is not really enjoyable experience. At least the last winter storm we had knocked down a lot of the trees surrounding our house, improving the horizons!

If you truly believe that they cruise through your space with bright lights with the expressed purpose of harassing you, I would never return to that place.

 

I realize that some would point out about your rights, but seeing these guys are deer hunters (illegal btw to use spotlights) and have bedded pickup trucks they have the necessary skills literally to make you disappear.

 

Reminded me of the movie 'The Road' (excellent scary movie)  I'll post a picture from it and leave it at that since a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

 

 

Bob

Edited by Bob Campbell, 17 March 2024 - 09:59 AM.

[maroubra_boy]

Now, if you have both skill sets, an amateur astronomer AND a deer hunter, this can come in very handy to acquire some exotic bits of kit...  Just saying... 

[Phil Cowell]

Last thing you want on a quiet night, Meal Team 6.

 

If you truly believe that they cruise through your space with bright lights with the expressed purpose of harassing you, I would never return to that place.

 

I realize that some would point out about your rights, but seeing these guys are deer hunters (illegal btw to use spotlights) and have bedded pickup trucks they have the necessary skills literally to make you disappear.

 

Reminded me of the movie 'The Road' (excellent scary movie)  I'll post a picture from it and leave it at that since a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

 

theroad4x4.jpg

 

Bob

[jakabasej8]

Why do people feel the compulsion to touch stuff that really they shouldn't touch?? They know better, but they still will touch the objective lens or corrector, or a painting or sculpture. I've seen plenty of people touch the eye lens of an eyepiece and they know NOT to do it, but there is this unstoppable urge to do it, & they quickly disappear into the ether when they realise what they have just done...

Sorry, but I won't subject my expensive gear to mascara, saliva, fingerprints or tomato sauce. Would do you well to control the chances of spreading pinkeye too with regular cleaning. Doesn't mean a crap image is on display. It means thinking a little more broadly in terms of pragmatism, which includes hygiene & cleaning.

It can be incredibly frustrating when people ignore basic etiquette and touch things they shouldn't, especially when it comes to delicate equipment like telescopes or artwork.

[dnrmilspec]

It can be incredibly frustrating when people ignore basic etiquette and touch things they shouldn't, especially when it comes to delicate equipment like telescopes or artwork.

 

Imagine going to a star party where every person there would not let you focus the scope for your eyes.  It would be the last one you ever attended.  Yet there are people who tell people not to touch at star parties now.  It happened to me. I wanted to look through an Explore Scientific refractor and the owner (at a public star party) would not let me focus the scope.  When I reached for the focuser he snapped "don't touch the scope!!!"  So I wandered off, thoroughly embarrassed and thoroughly PO'ed.  Got in my car and went home.

 

All it takes is one person like that "operator" to turn someone off forever. 

 

People are welcome to tough my scope.  They are welcome to focus it for their own vision.  I bring the good stuff.  But if touching is not something one is  prepared to tolerate with politeness, one might consider a beater scope or staying home. 

[Bob Campbell]

 When I reached for the focuser he snapped "don't touch the scope!!!"  So I wandered off, thoroughly embarrassed and thoroughly PO'ed.  Got in my car and went home.

 

All it takes is one person like that "operator" to turn someone off forever. 

 

People are welcome to tough my scope.  They are welcome to focus it for their own vision.  I bring the good stuff.  But if touching is not something one is  prepared to tolerate with politeness, one might consider a beater scope or staying home. 

didn't you explain that you are a seasoned amateur astronomer and apparently do not have the same refractive correction as he/she has?

 

Did the operator think that his precious scope should just be worshiped like a sacred calf?

 

Big difference in fingering a scope in non-essential ways and adjusting it for one's own optical situation.

 

Maybe you dodged a bullet there because the last person to look through it had pink eye.

 

Oddly, I have never been to a star party, partially for this reason. If I really wanted to look through it, I would have asked whether if it was OK to adjust the focus.

 

Edit: About a year ago, I was out in front of my house with my EAA setup and a dude drove by (closed subdevelopment) and asked whether he could look through the scope.

 

I told him it had no eyepiece so you couldn't look through it but you could look at the image I had displayed.

 

Somehow, he couldn't get his head around the fact that the image  on the TV was what the telescope was capturing. I think  he thought he was being  dissed and I didn't want him to look. Luckily he gave up still not realizing that the whatever up there was the real deal.

 

Bob

Edited by Bob Campbell, 09 April 2024 - 08:42 PM.

[maroubra_boy]

Imagine going to a star party where every person there would not let you focus the scope for your eyes.  It would be the last one you ever attended.  Yet there are people who tell people not to touch at star parties now.  It happened to me. I wanted to look through an Explore Scientific refractor and the owner (at a public star party) would not let me focus the scope.  When I reached for the focuser he snapped "don't touch the scope!!!"  So I wandered off, thoroughly embarrassed and thoroughly PO'ed.  Got in my car and went home.

 

All it takes is one person like that "operator" to turn someone off forever. 

 

People are welcome to tough my scope.  They are welcome to focus it for their own vision.  I bring the good stuff.  But if touching is not something one is  prepared to tolerate with politeness, one might consider a beater scope or staying home. 

There are people on this forum that think this way, "DON'T TOUCH THE SCOPE!!!", at outreach events.  They think that somehow it is acceptable for people to view through a scope with a blurry image to their eyes.  But they would never accept such a blurry image for themselves.  Very curious.  Yes, why do outreach at all then, because they certainly don't give a stuff about their guests.  I can only surmise that outreach must be some sort of ego trip for them, big noting themselves in their own minds but in reality only come across as magnanimous as a fart in an elevator.

 

Like you, I encourage people to focus the scope to their eyes.  But I also stay close to every new person coming to my scope and just quietly say to them to not grab at the scope "because your pulse is enough to shake the scope", which is a positive spin on why not to grab at the scope, and then say if they need to focus to turn this little wheel (focuser knob).  They then gently touch the focuser knob and see straight away just how much the image shakes and it all makes sense why not to grab.  If it is one of my dobs, I have no problem showing guests how to move the scope too and they get a big thrill with this, seeing just how easy its action is and the mental gymnastics that takes place with the image movement is very quickly overcome.

Edited by maroubra_boy, 09 April 2024 - 08:52 PM.

[David Knisely]

Re: the "Don't touch the scope!" commands.  Usually, this is when you are dealing with children who just need something to hold onto, and not because they might mess up the focus or try to do something nefarious with the scope.  With certain telescopes, a simple child's innocent grab will often send it well off-target, so when dealing with children at outreach, I like to provide them with a small step stool ladder that has a nice wide bar-like handle extension on the top end.  That way, they can hold onto the ladder's upper handle and not the telescope.  Even some adults appreciate having something low and convenient to hold onto, which is why I try and always bring along my short 2-step ladder with its top handle.  Indeed, for over 40 years, we have had three such small step ladders with handles on the deck at Hyde Observatory, along with a much larger movable platform stair with handles.  My primary outreach telescope (NexStar 9.25 GPS/XLT) is a robust fork-mounted unit on a heavy duty tripod, so a child holding onto it is unlikely to move it much, although the view might shake a bit.  However, if using my 100mm f/6 refractor on its GEM, I sometimes find myself gently saying, "Try not to touch the scope because it will move."  A short pleasant explanation-type request often goes a long way with younger members of the public.   Clear skies to you.

 

   

Edited by David Knisely, 09 April 2024 - 10:14 PM.

[maroubra_boy]

Yep, a step ladder with a TALL handrail is the ultimate outreach accessory.  I have two that I use depending on the scope I am using.

 

The WORST step ladder is one with either no handrail or a handrail that is much too short like shown in the first pic below.  As soon as that scope is aimed higher than in this pic, that child will no longer be able to reach the handrail.  A step ladder with no handrail or too short a handrail is not a good option for anyone, child or adult.

 

The tall handrail is not just for kids but for adults too.  The third pic shows the stepladder I use with my 17.5" dob.  Its handrail is so tall I use it hang my sketching rig off it.  And I use the handrail myself at the scope and I don't seek any support from the scope.  The steps on this ladder are nice and deep so I am not trying to balance on a wee ledge.  It is very stable that I can lean into it comfortably with no fear of falling or over balancing.

 

But this is moving away from the theme of this thread.

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Edited by maroubra_boy, 09 April 2024 - 11:17 PM.

[Phil Cowell]

I don’t put eyepieces in my scopes (unless you count one with NV) Only EAA most of the time and if someone touched the scope when operating I’d tell not too. Politely asking to put an eyepiece in the scope will be politely declined. I don’t use beater scopes. They can look at the output on the iPad though. Outreach doesn’t mean looking through scopes in many cases.

 

Imagine going to a star party where every person there would not let you focus the scope for your eyes.  It would be the last one you ever attended.  Yet there are people who tell people not to touch at star parties now.  It happened to me. I wanted to look through an Explore Scientific refractor and the owner (at a public star party) would not let me focus the scope.  When I reached for the focuser he snapped "don't touch the scope!!!"  So I wandered off, thoroughly embarrassed and thoroughly PO'ed.  Got in my car and went home.

 

All it takes is one person like that "operator" to turn someone off forever. 

 

People are welcome to tough my scope.  They are welcome to focus it for their own vision.  I bring the good stuff.  But if touching is not something one is  prepared to tolerate with politeness, one might consider a beater scope or staying home. 

Edited by Phil Cowell, 09 April 2024 - 11:46 PM.

[maroubra_boy]

Phil, who's talking about EAA in outreach? The post you quoted is referring entirely to people looking through a scope, not look at a screen. I've done EAA at outreach too, but you've missed the context. Of course no one should need to touch the scope if you are showing stuff on a screen. One situation has nothing to do with the other.

[John the Space Traveler]

Yep, a step ladder with a TALL handrail is the ultimate outreach accessory.  I have two that I use depending on the scope I am using.

 

The WORST step ladder is one with either no handrail or a handrail that is much too short like shown in the first pic below.  As soon as that scope is aimed higher than in this pic, that child will no longer be able to reach the handrail.  A step ladder with no handrail or too short a handrail is not a good option for anyone, child or adult.

 

The tall handrail is not just for kids but for adults too.  The third pic shows the stepladder I use with my 17.5" dob.  Its handrail is so tall I use it hang my sketching rig off it.  And I use the handrail myself at the scope and I don't seek any support from the scope.  The steps on this ladder are nice and deep so I am not trying to balance on a wee ledge.  It is very stable that I can lean into it comfortably with no fear of falling or over balancing.

 

But this is moving away from the theme of this thread.

I completely agree with using tall step ladders for a variety of reasons.  First is safety for short people trying to peek into an eyepiece at an awkward height.  It does indeed give them something safe to hold onto rather than the telescope. I make sure I paint it a bright color so that they can easily see it.

 

Secondly, it forms a subtle psychological/physical barrier between them and the scope.  I can't afford a burner scope for public viewing, so I try to give them something to grab on to without touching the scope, and it keeps me from having to ask them not to touch it (I want them to have a nice experience).  Which brings me to my suggested investment for anybody doing public viewing -- an electric focuser.

 

Electric focusers are, in my opinion, indispensable for star parties.  Not everybody's eyes focus the same, so it's fair for somebody to ask to fix a blurry view.  Likewise, letting them use the focus controller allows them to "touch" the telescope without really touching it.  Kids in particular enjoy having that sense of control over their experience.  And of course, it speeds up moving people through the line because electric focusers don't shake the scope.  Due to inexperience the public often lacks a gentle touch, and so time gets wasted while they try to get fine focus with a shaky scope.

Edited by John the Space Traveler, 10 April 2024 - 11:14 AM.

[Phil Cowell]

We’re doesn’t it say EAA in outreach. Ever use a pico projector with kids at outreach. 
Try it in the US. LP is real problem for sidewalk outreach for example. 
Grabby heads don’t care if it’s screen or eyepiece.

Did outreach for the eclipse here on Monday. 2 Seestars and not an eyepiece in sight it went very well.

Great group of folks no one grabbed kit. 

Phil, who's talking about EAA in outreach? The post you quoted is referring entirely to people looking through a scope, not look at a screen. I've done EAA at outreach too, but you've missed the context. Of course no one should need to touch the scope if you are showing stuff on a screen. One situation has nothing to do with the other.

[maroubra_boy]

Good grief, man, READ my post properly.

 

Phil, who's talking about EAA in outreach? The post you quoted is referring entirely to people looking through a scope, not look at a screen. I've done EAA at outreach too, but you've missed the context. Of course no one should need to touch the scope if you are showing stuff on a screen. One situation has nothing to do with the other.

Good grief, man!  READ my post in its entirety instead of just the first sentence.

[Phil Cowell]

Read the context to the heading of the thread. Barclays Bankers, outreach isn’t just looking through eyepieces.

Even with a RASA some folks try to mess with it. Kids are great most parents are great it’s the folks who want to see where do you insert the eyepiece. Looking in the dew shield while the system is running. Have you tried taking a non traditional scope to outreach? The RASA is perfect as it’s F/2.2 and 11”. 
Read the topic. 

 

Good grief, man, READ my post properly.

 

Good grief, man!  READ my post in its entirety instead of just the first sentence.

Edited by Phil Cowell, 10 April 2024 - 04:59 PM.

[jakabasej8]

Imagine going to a star party where every person there would not let you focus the scope for your eyes.  It would be the last one you ever attended.  Yet there are people who tell people not to touch at star parties now.  It happened to me. I wanted to look through an Explore Scientific refractor and the owner (at a public star party) would not let me focus the scope.  When I reached for the focuser he snapped "don't touch the scope!!!"  So I wandered off, thoroughly embarrassed and thoroughly PO'ed.  Got in my car and went home. https://sharpedgesho...s-multi-purpose

 

All it takes is one person like that "operator" to turn someone off forever.  https://eldfall-chro...slayer-dragoon/

 

People are welcome to tough my scope.  They are welcome to focus it for their own vision.  I bring the good stuff.  But if touching is not something one is  prepared to tolerate with politeness, one might consider a beater scope or staying home. 

 

[Zebra24601]

Nothing major, but I always wind up with several people who want to look through the finder scope. I need to re-direct them to the eyepiece. I guess that SCTs are just to weird looking for most people so they don't know where to look

Sometimes, the crosshair is the attraction, like they're a sniper.  Sometimes, it's just so they can look through another telescope.  If I remember, I'll cap or tape over my finder scope, to discourage that.  Otherwise, before long, someone trying to get their eye behind the finder scope is going to knock my telescope off its target.  Or, alternatively, they're holding up the line of people waiting to view through a 12" telescope to see something that they could see with binoculars.

[Nankins]

I still haven't encountered anything other than people who had major trouble seeing.  If they wanna look through my finder, that's fine.  

[shakafell]

Why do people feel the compulsion to touch stuff that really they shouldn't touch?? They know better, but they still will touch the objective lens or corrector, or a painting or sculpture. I've seen plenty of people touch the eye lens of an eyepiece and they know NOT to do it, but there is this unstoppable urge to do it, & they quickly disappear into the ether when they realise what they have just done...

 

I think we have a deep human instinct to want to touch things even when it serves no purpose. Its starts when we are kids. Have you seen Star Trek: First Contact? There is a scene where Picard wants to touch a spaceship because it somehow makes him feel closer to it.

 

And especially when looking thru an eyepiece we automatically want to hold on to it because we think we need to keep it steady. This is just something that always has to be dealt with.

[daveb2022]

Sometimes, the crosshair is the attraction, like they're a sniper.  Sometimes, it's just so they can look through another telescope.  If I remember, I'll cap or tape over my finder scope, to discourage that.  Otherwise, before long, someone trying to get their eye behind the finder scope is going to knock my telescope off its target.  Or, alternatively, they're holding up the line of people waiting to view through a 12" telescope to see something that they could see with binoculars.

That happens a lot, with my SCT's anyway. I just pop off the finder after alignment. If I need to realign, I can just put it back on for a few seconds. I tried leaving the caps on but still people try to look through the finder. Perhaps it looks convenient or just looks like the place one should be peering through.

 

While camping at a spot I frequent to get away from people, I had a group of 4x4 off road folks make in back in to my private site and set up camp nearby.

My 10"SCT was on a wedge had been set up for a couple of days. Their kids were bouncing off the walls looking at the scope.

Finally their parents came over and asked what it was.

One lady said our kids are saying that is a telescope and we told them it wasn't, but as much as we said to stay clear of it, we think you're going have some young visitors bugging you. I confirmed the kids were right and of course I invited them over for the the evening.

 

None of the kids tried to look through the finder but a couple of the parents did.

 

One of the kids asked were I lived. Come to find out they are from my own town, and their kids were friends of a coworker of mine and his kids. It was strange I was over 100 miles away from home, and a few miles off road where most people don't tread, only to run in to people from the same place I live at. 

 

I also got a kick out of the buddy I was camping with. He's not into astronomy much, and tried answering a question about brown dwarfs one boy had asked. I'll admit, I don't know much about the technical end of astronomy, and I know enough not to try to answer something I don't know much about, but my buddy fell right in to it. I mean these kids today can blow you away with what they learn in school. I was rolling on the ground laughing after looking at my buddies face, who was caught well off guard. At an outreach program, you never know what you're gonna get. 

One of my better nights for a little outreach.

Edited by daveb2022, 01 May 2024 - 03:35 PM.

[lakeorion]

Surveyor tripod with chain attached to the legs functioning as both a stop to prevent the legs from going out too far and a fence to put the (closed) unused cases in.

 

Stepladder with hoop in front to use as a handle.  Instruct every viewer to use the handle.  Be patient when they still bump the scope.

 

Sometimes it's actually advantageous to use a manual mount, "let me see if it's still in the scope..." and you look through, showing them the proper way to do it, without saying anything.

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Edited by lakeorion, 03 May 2024 - 07:42 AM.

[maroubra_boy]

Instruction disguised - yep, I like that

In a similar vien I tell people not to touch the eyepiece as their pulse is enough to jiggle the scope - which is true but it removes the anxiety of them grabbing at the eyepiece by disguising the real intention with a favourable spin of improving the quality of their experience. It instills a sense caution with a reason of benefit & purpose. Sometimes a guest will raise a hand to gently touch the eyepiece but they quickly notice the jiggling image & drop their hand.

[Don25]

Brought my Short Tube 80, to work for the recent Eclipse, with Solar film over the Objective. Our Company let us go outside, and provided an Ice cream Truck, along with music, to several hundred people, as well as handed out dozens of disposable solar glasses.

 

After setting up my scope, and letting quite a number of people view thru my scope, a man approached, who must have taken 4 minutes to try and align his cell phone with my scope, while dozens behind him, waited their turn to view. I started to get slightly annoyed, but finally He got his photo, and left. About 10 minutes later, he returned, and without asking, started re-aligning my scope without asking me, and at one point, He started to take off the Solar film cover "so that He could look thru the scope, for easier alignment". I told him to please not move the scope, and He did back off........some friends of mine even commented, "what is this clown doing?"

 

Later, another guy told me.."I should have provided, a mount for him to hold his cell phone, and I must have an antiquated scope, since there's no mount". I told Him that He could have brought His own scope, and would then be able to do whatever He wanted....He grumbled something under His breath, than walked off.

 

99% of people, are just fine when looking through our equipment, but you'll find the 1% of goofballs, arrogant clowns, and other miscreants, will sometimes come out of the woodwork.

[lakeorion]

Later, another guy told me.."I should have provided, a mount for him to hold his cell phone, and I must have an antiquated scope, since there's no mount". I told Him that He could have brought His own scope, and would then be able to do whatever He wanted....He grumbled something under His breath, than walked off.

To all the people who try a cell phone I just say, "I've tried and it doesn't work well."  Then if they are curious I can show pictures on my tablet of what I've taken with dedicated (hard mounted) astronomy cameras.