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LTVT?

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#1 yuzameh

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Posted 28 May 2023 - 04:00 PM

Okay, sorry to be a thicko, but I'm running around in circles trying to find a workable version of this and hitting lots of dead links, or not being able to find textures (higher res) or getting the terminator line drawn but not getting the shadows to show.

 

On Fri 26th May about 2200 UT I looked at the Moon telescopically for the first time in ages.  I've heard of lunar X and the like, but what I saw distinctly beyond the terminator where three lunar colons, : , and I don't remember having caught anything like that before.  they looked like little even doubles stars floating next to the bright end of the Moon, but then you'd have to be able to see through the Moon ;)

 

Take two halves of the Moon, top and bottom half (as inverted in a 216mm reflector, Moon not far past Central Meridian (that is, not long past having transited), haflway along the 'top' half was a nice close pair, halfway along the bottom half was a nice close pair and I think I've candidated a pair of Mons for that one (that two, properly).  And actually halfway from lunar cusp to lunar cusp was a nearer to the terminator, nearer to each other, and a fair bit fainter but still equal brightness pair.  Possibly highpoints on crater rims, or  a highpoint on a crater rim and a central peak's tip, or whatever.

 

Anyway, would like to emulate the experience, it's supposed to be LTVT I believe that is used for this, but although I found a live link for version 0.21 which led to github, I can't find any of the textures. the VMA ones don't seem to have a "hires.jpg" and no matter what I do the shadows aren't shown, and there are so few options in the software anyway to do things.  It came with lores, so I suppose it doesn't map shadows at low resolution.

 

I've got the docs, and there is always an rtfm case, but I've look at the getting started bit, and I've pressed the texture button a lot, with several changes in settings as possible, and stuf fall happens, bar the appearance and disappearance of the red and blue terminator lines, oh and I can get dots to pop up.

 

I think I'm possibly jargon challenged here and not understanding what I'm looking at.  Possibly I need a DEM vertical relief file for it to know how to do shadows?  The download I found just came as a 6.3 Mb zipfile.

 

Thanks in advance.



#2 CHnuschti

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Posted 28 May 2023 - 04:18 PM

You really have to read in. Main thread for LTVT here in CN is this one: https://www.cloudyni...alization-tool/

 

John Moore offers all the files needed, in #37 thread above, in ahem, ONE place, this has to be outlined. :wink:

 

If it is just for a preview of "today", "tonight" etc., I can really recommend the NASA preview site, there is a picture (labeled and unlabeled) for every hour in BIG size, the simulation is really excellent, better than I was ever able to reproduce in LTVT. I've transited to use those previews only, as they are ready and available instantly, no fuss. LTVT then for detailed analysis etc..
https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/5048

 

regards


Edited by CHnuschti, 28 May 2023 - 04:21 PM.

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#3 John_Moore

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Posted 28 May 2023 - 05:16 PM

"I'm running around in circles trying to find a workable version of this..."

yuzameh, let me know if this OneDrive resource (mentioned by CHnuschti above) works for you eventually.

 

I put the required LTVT files there so as to avoid having to go through the GitHub or Mosher resources files, as when using these latter two, you have to go through several pages to have all the necessary files. And moreover, the set of files available in the two resources are a bit old now, so in my resource you should have some higher Rez maps.

 

Btw, you can download all the files by simply hovering your cursor to the left of 'Name' where you'll see a small circle appear. Click on that to highlight all the LTVT files for a single download, or, just choose them individually for separate download of each doing the same 'left of' of each file etc.,.

 

I mention this, as sometimes users may have slow connections, and so a single ALL download might take too long for them. Also the LDEM 128 and the Large Address aware stuff mentioned in the LTVT thread are well worth using, as you can get very nice details using this higher DEM.

 

John



#4 yuzameh

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Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:07 AM

You really have to read in. Main thread for LTVT here in CN is this one: https://www.cloudyni...alization-tool/

 

John Moore offers all the files needed, in #37 thread above, in ahem, ONE place, this has to be outlined. wink.png

 

If it is just for a preview of "today", "tonight" etc., I can really recommend the NASA preview site, there is a picture (labeled and unlabeled) for every hour in BIG size, the simulation is really excellent, better than I was ever able to reproduce in LTVT. I've transited to use those previews only, as they are ready and available instantly, no fuss. LTVT then for detailed analysis etc..
https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/5048

 

regards

Thanks a lot.  I knew it was somewhere but somehow I had gotten into one of those occasional never ending websearch circles where a person can end up just missing what I wanted and circumnavigating it whilst hitting everything else.  I even found one of your forum posts but still suffered a dead links (besides which my german vocabulary is very limited and I can't remember all the rules for the tenses, the 'ge-verb-en' bits.  It's a long time since I gegangen-ed to any Schule).  There are a lot of dead links out there for this thing.  I found the CN link you note but wasn't sure as some posts are quite old now, and I'd already found that a lot of the moon.us wiki pages for ltvt were dead links.  I think I got the 6.3 Mb 0.21 software version from one of your German forum posts which did actually work.  I see the post 37 link, it's tooked away now I look in a fairly big post, I didn't read all the posts in full detail, it's not a small thread.

 

I've just tried the NASA link and I can see one of the brighter pairs, possibly two, and it looks like the faint one was a triple if anything, no wonder I didn't resolve it too clearly (I didn't push the magnification).  None of them labelled though.  The Moon isn't my main interest, I'm not against viewing it, but if the software is too pedantic or esoteric in its use I won't stand a chance as it will likely get used only once in a blue...  and by then I'll have forgotten how it all works.  That, of course, is my own problem.

 

NB what shouted out to me most when viewing the Moon that night was how Theopholis and the Cry_etc one next to it shouted out like a pair of twins (although they don't look twinlike in the Lunar Observer images) in the near centre of the shown phase, but when I used Virtual Moon Atlas and went to Theophilus it wasn't there.  I discovered that VMA has just been upgraded to version 8.2 in case people didn't know (just this very month) due to database issues, so I upgraded as I was on 8.1.  That fixed it and Theophilus now not only was "gone to" but its label was now over and centred upon the proper crater.



#5 yuzameh

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Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:19 AM

yuzameh, let me know if this OneDrive resource (mentioned by CHnuschti above) works for you eventually.

 

I put the required LTVT files there so as to avoid having to go through the GitHub or Mosher resources files, as when using these latter two, you have to go through several pages to have all the necessary files. And moreover, the set of files available in the two resources are a bit old now, so in my resource you should have some higher Rez maps.

 

Btw, you can download all the files by simply hovering your cursor to the left of 'Name' where you'll see a small circle appear. Click on that to highlight all the LTVT files for a single download, or, just choose them individually for separate download of each doing the same 'left of' of each file etc.,.

 

I mention this, as sometimes users may have slow connections, and so a single ALL download might take too long for them. Also the LDEM 128 and the Large Address aware stuff mentioned in the LTVT thread are well worth using, as you can get very nice details using this higher DEM.

 

John

Thanks very much, appreciated.

 

Unfortunately Microsoft wants me to sign in and/or register.

 

I have a zero tolerance security and privacy ethos on this machine and for computing in general, especially when it comes to USA businesses trying to spy on me, so that is that.

 

However, that is my problem, so to speak, so thanks anyway.  I am registered to several professional astronomical databases, which only require minimal questions (often just user id and a password, not even an email address request), but past that I don't play.  For far more although there is a registering option you can still access as guest without any sign in.  It's therefore, as I say, my problem.

 

I'm sure I tried it a few months ago complete with the relief datasets and then got rid of it as I didn't quite follow the point at the time.  So I've only myself to blame twice!

 

Thanks anyway.



#6 John_Moore

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Posted 29 May 2023 - 11:21 AM

If you wish, yuzameh, send me a private PM with your email address, and I can send all the LTVT files to you through that way. We can discuss options as to how many files you want to receive per/upload, as sometimes they can take ages to download at the other end. And, yes, I understand the whole Login/Sign-up stuff, which I feel is annoying, too...as I come across it daily when trying to access on some sites.

 

I would make the files available elsewhere on some free website, if you have any to suggest, with no hassle involved.

 

John


Edited by John_Moore, 29 May 2023 - 11:40 AM.


#7 CHnuschti

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Posted 29 May 2023 - 02:24 PM

As hint, there is only need of few files to have a full running LTVT, see attached pic. Just drop everything into the same directory. It does not matter if using v0.21.4 or the newer (still beta I guess) v0.21.5x. The latter is able to run scripts, and is also able to run bigger DEM files (for me with Win 10 at least). In the older version, only with the DEM64 it run right away, the latest version also can load DEM128 without "exterior help".

 

regards

 

ltvt.minimalset.jpg


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#8 yuzameh

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Posted 29 May 2023 - 04:58 PM

Hello again both

 

Thanks very much for your patience!

 

I've kind of got it working, however I suspect there is a denser label file than the one I've got (probably ldem_16.lbl), but I'll look for better later.  I found a Kaguay .IMG but I can't find the attendant .LBL at present.

 

I gave in and did another websearch.

 

This may or may not be of interest to you both :-

 

http://astro.ago.fmf...ltair_tmp/Data/

 

It has a zipped version and an unzipped directory, I haven't fine checked if one is more uptodate than t'other.

 

That was after going to archive.org and searching on LTVT where I found the entire wikispace page as a 1.1 Gb zipped file.  I was able to get some jpegs out of that, and I also managed to download wac_global.bmp which I'm currently using for high resolution shaded relief option, with the default lores file as low res and the clementine photomosaic as high res.

 

I'm ostensibly using 0.21.5x6 version.

 

I've managed to recognise but not identify two of the floating dots as high peaks in the mountain chain bordering Mare Imbrium from LTVT, near a crater.

 

However these aren't labelled in LTVT.

 

Putting up virtual moon atlas (VMA) I find the crater is Conon and one of the mounts is Mons Bradley and the whole chain is possibly Montes Apenninus.  Actually, the two peaks may neither of them be Mons Bradley itself as the VMA dot is a bit offset from both, but the raised area it covers is of much lower profile so I doubt that's the case.

 

Thanks for your assistance, it made me know it was still doable if I was stubborn enough.

 

As some have said it is a bit clunky so I'll have to play with it a bit more to get the look and feel.

 

I'll also spend time at some other point to see if I can find a more specific list of needed things (both re-reading your posts and checking the other thread), especially ldem_64 and any label thereto.

 

However, Mons Bradley appears to be in the named lunar features .csv file so maybe I just haven't tweaked a setting or ticked a box somewhere in options that I should have.  Can't find any such setting, and have zoomed in to 6x in case it's one of those resolution things.

 

Looks like I'll have to use LTVT in combination with VMA.  Identifying the dots was simple enough, first I pumped in the observation time, clicked on one of the dots to centre, zoomed in a bit, and then recomputed for 24 hours afterwards till I could see things.

 

Anyway, CHEERS!


Edited by yuzameh, 29 May 2023 - 05:00 PM.

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#9 CHnuschti

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Posted 30 May 2023 - 01:51 AM

Labeling: mouse right-click > menu > identify ... ; 2 options first just the selected point, 2nd everything around

 

Direct selection over names: Tools > go to named feature > select from list ; that's the excel list, must be correctly assigned in Files > change external associations ...

 

A lot of apparent features do not have any (official) names.

 

regards


Edited by CHnuschti, 30 May 2023 - 01:51 AM.


#10 yuzameh

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Posted 30 May 2023 - 11:00 AM

Labeling: mouse right-click > menu > identify ... ; 2 options first just the selected point, 2nd everything around

 

Direct selection over names: Tools > go to named feature > select from list ; that's the excel list, must be correctly assigned in Files > change external associations ...

 

A lot of apparent features do not have any (official) names.

 

regards

Thanks, I learnt the right click by accident!  Strange I keep forgetting to test what right click does on newly installed software, it's not as if it is a new innovation!

 

One pair of dots turned out to be Mons Bradley and a neighbour.

 

Another pair of dots I couldn't find on the simulation (I've now got ldem_64)

 

The faint pair or more likely triple dots somewhat central along the near terminator region appears to likely be high points in the Hipparcos crater rim not far from craterlets Y, T and U (from memory).

 

As is often the case with astronomical software tools this software started off with me stongly disliking and annoyed with it before realisation began to set on upon multiple attempts and the finding of one or two obscure repositories of it online up to finding it has great practical utility and almost uniquely so, once you get around the vagaries it seems to have.  It is probably easier to get the hang of it with a practical outcome in mind, which was the only reason I wanted to use it.  The getting of it is tedious though, and looks as though it was always tedious even when readily available with a live home website.

 

In the end the archival 1.2 Gb zip of the ltvt website likely wasn't needed.  I've kept the barest minimum, lowres.jpg and wac_global.tmp, got the JPL elements file, ldem64, and thrown away airbrush.jpg and the clementine jpg as the latter wasn't that good, too dark.  Latest VMA version textures don't appear to be usable as it expects a single high res image and they've gone to using multiple images and I can't get ltvt to point to a subdirectory instead of a file.

 

I've scan read the older thread on it and haven't noticed any better global images available (I didn't keep any lpods or other non-global images from the archive zip file) and having the tick box available and the ability to edit that in the .ini file I wouldn't mind a higher res single file alternative to the clementine one, one that is higher resolution than the WAC_GLOBAL one and image based, not false colour or airbrush.  Any suggestions for such a thing that I've missed would be welcome.

 

Meanwhile it works well enough of win7, ldem_64 of course takes a significant while longer to simulate compared to ldem_16 but that's combination of my machine and win7 and ltvt and of course the higher resolution of that DEM file.  Sometimes refresh redraw on re-centering (I've got that as automatically on) gives a glitch in redraw mapping if zoomed in, but I only need to press texture or DEM to solve the issue and get it mapped properly.

 

Just over three weeks to the Summer Solstice so the nights will be drawing in again here surprising fast enough so I may do a bit more Moon this year whilst refreshing on some double stars and messier objects and waiting for the outer planets to get nearer to being evening objects.  The terminator is the more fun bit with a telescope.  With this and VMA I can more readily identify objects, I've never found any book lunar atlas of much utility, though admittedly have never purchased a major one.  The shadow shading reallly does need to be emulated for practical observing.

 

Strangely I identified Theophilus and Cyrssis (spelling?) instantly simply because of the number of images I've seen of them in this subforum!  I had never taken any notice of their location so would not have expected them to be visible during my viewing session.




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