79 replies to this topic

[Armanos]

Curious noob here. I was thinking of getting a night vision monocular and attach to a refractor.

What monocular should I get? Are there any budget options? What specs do I need?

 

Would this one work?

 

https://www.eoccompa...-white-phosphor

[bobhen]

There is a lot of information PINNED at the beginning of this forum in the Best of Night Vision Thread including topics like: most frequently asked questions and a buyer's guide.

 

HERE is a link to another website with some very useful information.
 

There are not really any "budget" intensifiers for astronomy use. You will also need to include filters and an adapter in your budge as well.

 

However, if you do have the budget or can sell some stuff to help offset the cost, NV is well worth it!

 

Bob

[Armanos]

OK, thanks, I will study the pins and the link. 

Yes, I was also thinking that NV astronomy should be very rewarding.

And in this geopolitical climate, it is worth investing in a night vision device, anyway.

[blackhaz]

Here is another link you might find useful:

http://www.loptics.c...ightvision.html

 

One of the classic setups is PVS-14 and a TeleVue 55 mm Plossl (optionally with the 67 mm converter). There is a whole galaxy of threads discussing how to find a good PVS-14 - they can come with a wide variety of NV tubes inside. E.g. see Speedy1985 post here:

https://www.cloudyni...-nv/?p=11902441

 

Add an IR-pass filter (like Astronomik 642 nm) and a narrowband H-alpha filter (7-5 nm) to punch through light pollution and amplify interesting spectra, and you can insert all that into your telescope like a normal eyepiece.

 

Max

Edited by blackhaz, 21 June 2023 - 06:07 AM.

[sixela]

In Europe prices are quite steep for a Gen 3 device (steeper than in the US, but US devices cannot be exported), but one reliable source is https://www.ovni-nightvision.com/en/

 

This is "budget" (for a better Gen 2+ tube) for Europe:

https://www.andres-i...Products/120085

 

but nowhere near the flexibility offered by an OVNI-M (which also has a much better tube).

 

The device you referred to will indeed already allow you to use H-alpha for nebulae, but I doubt it will be that useful for e.g. galaxies (where glass eyepieces and your more sensitive night vision will probably beat it). The sensitivity is 550 µA/lm whereras the cheapest OVNI-M will have one over 2000 µA/lm, and the signal-to-noise ratio is a lot worse.

The Photonis Echo I linked is somewhere in between.

 

Photonis 4G are better tubes than the Echo but you're starting to approach the prices of an OVNI-M (which is a lot more sensitive and versatile still).

 

If you're considering Harder gen 3 tubes: the OVNI have Harder tubes but specced specifically for astronomy and these days getting a generic Harder in a PVS-14 is actually more expensive than buying an OVNI-M (for equal non-astronomy related specs like FOM).

 

Send Joko (on this forum) a private message if you'd want to know where to meet him.

Edited by sixela, 21 June 2023 - 06:13 AM.

[Second Time Around]

There is a lot of information PINNED at the beginning of this forum in the Best of Night Vision Thread including topics like: most frequently asked questions and a buyer's guide.

HERE is a link to another website with some very useful information.

There are not really any "budget" intensifiers for astronomy use. You will also need to include filters and an adapter in your budge as well.

However, if you do have the budget or can sell some stuff to help offset the cost, NV is well worth it!

Bob

[Second Time Around]

I think the link is broken, Bob.

[sixela]

Works for me.

[Armanos]

In Europe prices are quite steep for a Gen 3 device (steeper than in the US, but US devices cannot be exported), but one reliable source is https://www.ovni-nightvision.com/en/

 

This is "budget" (for a better Gen 2+ tube) for Europe:

https://www.andres-i...Products/120085

 

but nowhere near the flexibility offered by an OVNI-M (which also has a much better tube).

 

The device you referred to will indeed already allow you to use H-alpha for nebulae, but I doubt it will be that useful for e.g. galaxies (where glass eyepieces and your more sensitive night vision will probably beat it). The sensitivity is 550 µA/lm whereras the cheapest OVNI-M will have one over 2000 µA/lm, and the signal-to-noise ratio is a lot worse.

The Photonis Echo I linked is somewhere in between.

 

Photonis 4G are better tubes than the Echo but you're starting to approach the prices of an OVNI-M (which is a lot more sensitive and versatile still).

 

If you're considering Harder gen 3 tubes: the OVNI have Harder tubes but specced specifically for astronomy and these days getting a generic Harder in a PVS-14 is actually more expensive than buying an OVNI-M (for equal non-astronomy related specs like FOM).

 

Send Joko (on this forum) a private message if you'd want to know where to meet him.

Thanks, that was informative. I am in EU, so that shop suits me. So the cheapest option is 5000€, ok. It sucks a bit, for sure.

I was a little surprised that a NV device would be less sensitive than my eyes for galaxies. Good to know, because galaxies and comets are my main interest.

Can this device be used as an eyepiece in a scope with an adapter? Or is it for afocal use only?

[Uwe Pilz]

You don't need to buy a new device. There are many ones in the second hand market, so you may start with something more than 1000€. Hunters use such device, so there is a market. Be careful not to buy a rifle night vision device, because it has a narrow FOV.

 

Normally, you want to have a H-alpha filter, which you cannot buy second hand. For this, you need some hundred Euros extra.

[sixela]

Thanks, that was informative. I am in EU, so that shop suits me. So the cheapest option is 5000€, ok. It sucks a bit, for sure.

I was a little surprised that a NV device would be less sensitive than my eyes for galaxies.

Human night vision is very sensitive. But it's also incredibly blurry and it needs quite a bit of image scale to pick up detail, and making things bigger costs you a lot of surface brightness (unless you get a much bigger scope, the reason for aperture fever).

 

The gain of an NVD on nebulae is far greater because they radiate a lot in H-alpha and only your day vision is sensitive to it -- night vision is completely blind to it. So it lets you get "H-alpha eyes". So even devices which have a lot less gain than a modern Gen 3 tube will show you more than a scope with eyepieces.

 

Mind you, in a lot of light pollution NV devices help on galaxies too because you can aggressively filter out the visual spectrum (where there is a lot of light pollution) and view only in IR. That increases contrast at the expense of surface brightness. And even unfiltered viewing the same galaxies with mesopic vision rather than sort-of night vision slightly decreases the contrast ratio needed to see objects. And if there's enough light pollution for you to see a background light enough to kill night vision, then an NVD device will also be needed, because day vision is much less sensitive. But all these applications need more gain to deliver a decisive win for the NVD.

Edited by sixela, 21 June 2023 - 12:06 PM.

[WheezyGod]

Thanks, that was informative. I am in EU, so that shop suits me. So the cheapest option is 5000€, ok. It sucks a bit, for sure.
I was a little surprised that a NV device would be less sensitive than my eyes for galaxies. Good to know, because galaxies and comets are my main interest.
Can this device be used as an eyepiece in a scope with an adapter? Or is it for afocal use only?

It will help with galaxies. Maybe a 0.5-1.5 magnitude increase at most. However if galaxies are 80-95% of your viewing and comets are the rest then you may not feel it’s worth the cost.

For me, I have and still am most interested in globular clusters which NV really excels at. Not quite to the extent it excels with nebula but it makes a globular like M14 look better with NV than M13/M5/M22 do with glass. The one exception is if you have a very large scope with semi-dark skies then most globulars will be plenty bright.

I knew NV was best for nebula but didn’t think I’d be as interested as most are here. After using NV in prime for several months and then recently getting Ha filters and the TV67 setup I now am very much enjoying looking at different nebula.

Unfortunately I can’t speak to the NV options in Europe to know if it can be used in prime (plopped into the focuser with an adapter), or only afocally. In the US, it’s now looking like the only option now is a PVS-14 which is afocal only.

[Armanos]

Thanks. PVS-14 appears to be the only option in Europe.

I haven't looked at the used market - have to check, there are very strict regulations on military stuff. This is not America. 

Anyway, NV astronomy seems to be very very exciting.

I have to look at options and decide..

[Armanos]

OK, I didn't know there is a manufacturer of dedicated astronomy night vision devices OVNI-M, cool. 

Edited by Armanos, 22 June 2023 - 03:22 AM.

[Uwe Pilz]

> PVS-14 appears to be the only option in Europe.

 

There are more

- Bushnell Wolf-3s

- Gutzeit Night-max

- ZEISS Victory NV 5.6x62

[Armanos]

OK, what about the Bushnell Wolf 3 device, any experience? There are some on the used market.

What tube does it have? I cannot find any specs..

[sixela]

It will help with galaxies. 

A good Gen 3 will definitely help on galaxies. If you can stand the Google translation:

 

https://www-astrofor...pp#post-1550250

 

11 galaxies in an OVNI-M with my 'bad' eye vs. 4 with glass eyepieces and my 'good' eye (and not for lack of trying) -- I keep one eye for NVD and another for glass eyepieces during a session when I'm using the NVD unfiltered.

But if you just have a 'standard' Gen 2+ it won't beat glass eyepieces, in my experience. Too much noise at high gain, and if you lower the (already much lower) gain you might as well go to glass.

Edited by sixela, 22 June 2023 - 04:14 AM.

[Joko]

Thanks. PVS-14 appears to be the only option in Europe.

No

 

OK, I didn't know there is a manufacturer of dedicated astronomy night vision devices OVNI-M, cool. 

As our main export country is the USA, some people sometimes think we're an American company, but we're not.

We're in France, which means we're in Europe.

NV devices dedicated to astronomy are very different from all other NV devices.

Edited by Joko, 22 June 2023 - 04:29 AM.

[C.Hay]

> PVS-14 appears to be the only option in Europe.

 

There are more

- Bushnell Wolf-3s

- Gutzeit Night-max

- ZEISS Victory NV 5.6x62

I'll second that. The Wolf 3s and the Zeiss Victory NV 5.6x62 have Gen2+ tubes. I have experience with both. Their performance is very similar and entirely adequate for my purposes. Both can be found in good condition around 1000 Euros, the Wolf 3s tending to be slightly less expensive, the Zeiss a little more. I have no experience with the Gen3 stuff but can't really imagine that spending fives time as much is going to give me fives times the pleasure. What is certain is that shelling out 5000 Euros would give me a good deal of pain that wouldn't go away.

 

The Wolf 3s has the advantage of a C-mount connection allowing free choice of C-mount lenses. The Zeiss has C-mount, but this is so deeply recessed in the body that only the Zeiss 125mm f/2 lens supplied with it works. The advantage of the Zeiss is this gorgeous NV-optimised lens.

 

I can't agree with Sixela's comment on galaxies. My Gen2+ does help distinctly on galaxies, and on comets too. But I use it purely handheld. I suppose we need to distinguish more clearly about the handheld/telescope differences. What people report with telescopes does not always match my handheld, low-power, large-field, fast-focal-ratio experience. Note the latter. Folks with telescopes seem to operate at ratios slower than f/2. Handheld I'm operating between f/2 and f/1.

 

CS, Christopher

Edited by C.Hay, 22 June 2023 - 04:43 AM.

[Armanos]

No

 

As our main export country is the USA, some people sometimes think we're an American company, but we're not.

We're in France, which means we're in Europe.

NV devices dedicated to astronomy are very different from all other NV devices.

No, no, OVNI states very clearly that they are a French company, very good.

OK, so prices are as listed on the website (plus shipping obviously)?

So if I decide I want it, do I contact them, or you?

[Armanos]

I'll second that. The Wolf 3s and the Zeiss Victory NV 5.6x62 have Gen2+ tubes. I have experience with both. Their performance is very similar and entirely adequate for my purposes. Both can be found in good condition around 1000 Euros, the Wolf 3s tending to be slightly less expensive, the Zeiss a little more. I have no experience with the Gen3 stuff but can't really imagine that spending fives time as much is going to give me fives times the pleasure. What is certain is that shelling out 5000 Euros would give me a good deal of pain that wouldn't go away.

 

The Wolf 3s has the advantage of a C-mount connection allowing free choice of C-mount lenses. The Zeiss has C-mount, but this is so deeply recessed in the body that only the Zeiss 125mm f/2 lens supplied with it works. The advantage of the Zeiss is this gorgeous NV-optimised lens.

 

I can't agree with Sixela's comment on galaxies. My Gen2+ does help distinctly on galaxies, and on comets too. But I use it purely handheld. I suppose we need to distinguish more clearly about the handheld/telescope differences. What people report with telescopes does not always match my handheld, low-power, large-field, fast-focal-ratio experience. Note the latter. Folks with telescopes seem to operate at ratios slower than f/2. Handheld I'm operating between f/2 and f/1.

 

CS, Christopher

OK, thanks. Wolf 3s is green phosphor? Will the Wolf 3s work in prime focus mode with a c-mount to 1.25 inch adapter (+all the needed filters)?

[Armanos]

A good Gen 3 will definitely help on galaxies. If you can stand the Google translation:

 

https://www-astrofor...pp#post-1550250

 

11 galaxies in an OVNI-M with my 'bad' eye vs. 4 with glass eyepieces and my 'good' eye (and not for lack of trying) -- I keep one eye for NVD and another for glass eyepieces during a session when I'm using the NVD unfiltered.

But if you just have a 'standard' Gen 2+ it won't beat glass eyepieces, in my experience. Too much noise at high gain, and if you lower the (already much lower) gain you might as well go to glass.

Thanks a lot. I guess I have to work on my dark adaptation techniques a little more

Incidentally, does dark adaptation do anything to observation with a NV device, i.e., do you use your photopic vision when looking in the device? Or will scotopic vision show fainter stuff in the eyepiece of the device?

[sixela]

For nebulae I tend to filter aggressively (3.5nm or 5nm filters) and tune the gain down so that I stay mainly in the scotopic regime only (with an eyepiece background surface brightness that matches the naked eye one). I can even use my good eye (once I have tuned the gain down...I tweak the gain with my 'bad' eye) without affecting my dark adaptation, and I have to use the exact same averted vision technique as with glass eyepieces. Note: that's only really possible if you do have a manual gain control on your device.

 

For galaxies you tend not to filter or to use a broadband filter, which leaves the sky background quite bright (even 22 mag/arsec² becomes quite bright after the gain is applied). When doing that I'm definitely not using pure photopic vision since slightly averted vision tends to help (but strangely I need to 'avert' slightly less), but it's definitely mesopic (with a much better resolution of small features, which helps you resolve much finer features in a "26mm 40°" NVD in prime focus than when using your own human night vision in an 8mm Ethos).

 

And that use really does kill your night vision's dark adaptation after only a few seconds, which is why I use the other eye (since I always tend to compare eyepiece vs. NVD views on the same object).

 

You could of course tune the gain down to darken the background so much it matches the naked eye background, but you tend to see a lot less, especially if you're looking for the finer details. The objects then seem to revert to an appearance very much like the one with a 1.8mm exit pupil glass eyepiece (complete with fuzzy night vision that can't resolve what's definitely there).

 

Of course that's how I use the NVD. Others could use it very differently, especially if they use only the NVD during a session.

Edited by sixela, 22 June 2023 - 07:08 AM.

[WheezyGod]

Thanks a lot. I guess I have to work on my dark adaptation techniques a little more
Incidentally, does dark adaptation do anything to observation with a NV device, i.e., do you use your photopic vision when looking in the device? Or will scotopic vision show fainter stuff in the eyepiece of the device?

You’ll get varying opinions about this here which means you can’t go wrong either way. Most use direct vision and are not dark adapted. For many who get NV because of their high light pollution, getting dark adapted wouldn’t make much of a difference anyways since there’s so much light around them.

I’m in bortle 5/6 and prefer to have some level of dark adaptation just because it helps me in the process of locating objects.

It also depends on how high you prefer your gain. For nebula I prefer high gain to tease out more details and because I’m not bothered by the scintillation. For galaxies and globs in prefer something a bit lower because I view them unfiltered and prefer a somewhat more natural sky since high gain looks a bit unnatural and semi blinding after awhile.

Edited by WheezyGod, 22 June 2023 - 07:12 AM.

[sixela]

I can't agree with Sixela's comment on galaxies. My Gen2+ does help distinctly on galaxies, and on comets too. But I use it purely handheld.

 

'Handheld' magnification (up to 7x) galaxies are few and far between (at last compared to the number you can see using a telescope). So yes, my comment was aimed at galaxies viewed in a telescope, and usually those you try to view at a fairly long f/ratio if you use a NVD (just to get enough image scale to see them or see detail in them). I'm also comparing the NVD view with a glass eyepiece and a dark adapted eye; it's undoubtedly true that if you just walk out of your brightly lit kitchen, a glass eyepiece can be no match for a Gen2+ device.

 

But even under a Bortle 8 sky, I find that you can get some level of dark adaptation, if only you shield yourself from direct sources of glare (which does require cooperative neighbours, yes).

Edited by sixela, 22 June 2023 - 07:17 AM.