1390 replies to this topic

[Alan S]

No one who has said the TOEs have been discontinued has provided any evidence. I asked TNA a couple months ago and they said the TOEs were not being discontinued.

Right! I just bought the 3.3 and 2.5 from TNA about 3 weeks ago when their latest shipment arrived.  Not discontinued, despite the CN mythology.

[Kevin Barker]

So I drug out my "planet killer" Mewlon 180c last night, and here's what I found:

 

             Eyepiece                     Power     Scatter     Contrast     Sharpness     Sharp Field of View

 

           TPL 12.5mm                     173        Minimal     Excellent       Excellent                   90%

           TAO 12.5mm                     173         Some       Excellent      Excellent                 100%

             LE 12.5mm                      173        Some        Excellent      Excellent                  100%

Kasai Zeiss Astro Plan 12.5mm       173         Minimal    Excellent       Excellent                 100%    

Orion Ultrascopic 12.5mm              173         Some      Very Good    Very Good                 90%             

           Delite 13mm                      166         Some      Very Good    Very Good                 100%            

            ZAO I 16mm                     135        Minimal       Excellent       Excellent                100%

 

I was surprised by the level of polish of the TPL.  I judged it to be equal to the Kasai and ZAO.  Seeing was excellent as well.  I could make out faint bands on Saturn and Cassini's Division (obviously).  With all of the eyepieces except the Delite, I could easily see Dione just off Saturn's disk.

 

So I think that Tak has a new eyepiece provider.  That's the only reason I can think of for them halting production of their other eyepieces.  Maybe they paid a little extra for a better polish on the TPL, at least that would make sense for the reduced scatter and increased price.

 

I think I'll keep them.

A nice report from an experienced observer. I have only had my pair of 12.5 mm TPL's for a few days. They are nicely made. Only astronomical use was a quick peek at Saturn through a Q3.5. Seeing average. I liked the eye relief no problems there.

I look forward to some steady air and Jupiter well placed in a month or two. I have a 12 mm Brandon and 13 mm Nagler T6 to compare it to. If Sandy's comment is correct about the lack of scatter then these will be great eyepieces for planetary and tight double stars. 

[25585]

+1, in the 5-7mm range

 

BTW, anyone who wants a TOE  they can be ordered from vendors in Japan. 
All the resellers I checked in my country were backordered on the 4mm TOE so  I ordered two 4mm from Japan on Saturday, ETA this Wednesday along with a very favorable exchange rate.  TPL's also available. 

Astronomics still has some LEs in stock, yesterday anyway.

[gnowellsct]

Astronomics still has some LEs in stock, yesterday anyway.

A discussion thread like this cost me $2,400 about 12 years ago. I got all worked up and thought I HAD TO HAVE the zao II set. That was $600 an eyepiece and if you wanted new you had to buy the set.

I rarely use them and when I am in the mood for tiny glass which is practically never I prefer the Pentax xo's. For those who have never heard of them they were 2.5 and 5 mm.

Greg N

[Far Star]

Symmetrical Plössls are among the eyepiece types that are the easiest and cheapest to manufacture. Certainly, I'm sure that Takahashi uses the best glasses for the TPL Plössls; however, the price of these glasses plays only a minor role in the manufacturing costs because only tiny amounts of glass are needed for these eyepieces.

 

Even assuming that the polishing of the lenses is above average and that all glass-air surfaces have been provided with an excellent multi-coating, the price of the TPL Plössls is completely unacceptable in my opinion. This is all the more true since, according to Takahashi, these low-tech eyepieces, despite their small apparent field of view of 48°, are "extremely sharp" only over half of the field of view, which (compared to the TeleVue Plössls, for example) is a technological step backward: "It is extremely sharp from the center to the half of the field of view, and the star image swells toward the periphery." (see post #17)

 

I can only smile mildly at the enthusiasm that some people have for these simple Plössl eyepieces. But I also have a certain understanding for it, because after all, amateur astronomy is a hobby, and in a hobby, one does not judge things only rationally.

[Sarkikos]

A discussion thread like this cost me $2,400 about 12 years ago. I got all worked up and thought I HAD TO HAVE the zao II set. That was $600 an eyepiece and if you wanted new you had to buy the set.

I rarely use them and when I am in the mood for tiny glass which is practically never I prefer the Pentax xo's. For those who have never heard of them they were 2.5 and 5 mm.

Greg N

The 2.5 and 5 XO's complement and complete the ZAO-II's, which are 4, 6, 10 and 16mm.   A mixed subset of the XO's and ZAO-II's work well together in a turret.  Adding in the 1.6 and 3.4mm HR is also a possibility.  

 

With the included 2x Zeiss Barlow, the ZAO-II's become a set of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 16mm.  But that's a bit too much switching and fumbling around in the dark for my taste.

 

Usually, I opt for a small set of zoom eyepieces for the speed and efficiency, or Ethos for the wider fields.

 

Mike

Edited by Sarkikos, 15 August 2023 - 07:47 AM.

[j.gardavsky]

Symmetrical Plössls are among the eyepiece types that are the easiest and cheapest to manufacture. Certainly, I'm sure that Takahashi uses the best glasses for the TPL Plössls; however, the price of these glasses plays only a minor role in the manufacturing costs because only tiny amounts of glass are needed for these eyepieces.

 

...

As the sales volumes of the astronomy optics are very small, or even negligibly small, if compared with the camera lenses or microscopes optics, no company making the premium eyepieces can afford to order blocks of high quality special glass sorts directly from the glass manufacturers, to cut pieces of glass out of a big block for the small lenses as needed for the eyepieces.

 

So, they will source the matched-in-size high quality glass preforms, from Mitutoyo, Nikon, Olympus, etc.

When the economic source dries out, then the series of the eyepiece ends, like the Vixen HR, Supermonocentrics, Zeiss Abbe Orthos, ...

 

Best,

JG

[Mike W]

Speaking of glass making, here is an interesting read from Nikon.

https://www.imaging-...i-glass-factory

[j.gardavsky]

Yes,

ths is an excellent watch&read on how is the high quality glass made!

 

Thank you for sharing,

JG

[iseegeorgesstar]

I think the saying dates back to the 1920's when Oklahoma Native Americans struck oil on their land and had money to burn.   Recently, there had been stories about luxury and performance cars abandoned when they ran out of gas in places like Bahrain by young people attached to massive oil wealth. 

Massive oil wealth you say? Yet ran out of gas? The irony... 

[SandyHouTex]

As the sales volumes of the astronomy optics are very small, or even negligibly small, if compared with the camera lenses or microscopes optics, no company making the premium eyepieces can afford to order blocks of high quality special glass sorts directly from the glass manufacturers, to cut pieces of glass out of a big block for the small lenses as needed for the eyepieces.

 

So, they will source the matched-in-size high quality glass preforms, from Mitutoyo, Nikon, Olympus, etc.

When the economic source dries out, then the series of the eyepiece ends, like the Vixen HR, Supermonocentrics, Zeiss Abbe Orthos, ...

 

Best,

JG

Yep.  There's a fascinating video on the Nikon optical factory and how they make lens blanks.  It's in the "bino forum" under "An Interesting Read from Nikon".  I have included the link here:

 

https://www.imaging-...i-glass-factory

[Mike W]

Yep.  There's a fascinating video on the Nikon optical factory and how they make lens blanks.  It's in the "bino forum" under "An Interesting Read from Nikon".  I have included the link here:
 
https://www.imaging-...i-glass-factory

I already posted that link above and on the binocular forum. Are you ignoring me because I'm a Televe fan? LOL

BTW I'm also a Nikon fan, a Canon fan, a Swift fan...............

Edited by Mike W, 15 August 2023 - 11:58 AM.

[Nucleophile]

The 2.5 and 5 XO's complement and complete the ZAO-II's, which are 4, 6, 10 and 16mm.   A mixed subset of the XO's and ZAO-II's work well together in a turret.  Adding in the 1.6 and 3.4mm HR is also a possibility.  

 

With the included 2x Zeiss Barlow, the ZAO-II's become a set of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 16mm. 

ZAO II, XO, HR and Zeiss 2x barlow all living together in my ep case and I must choose which ones come out to play. 

 

I would love to have this problem.

[lylver]

Even assuming that the polishing of the lenses is above average and that all glass-air surfaces have been provided with an excellent multi-coating, the price of the TPL Plössls is completely unacceptable in my opinion. This is all the more true since, according to Takahashi, these low-tech eyepieces, despite their small apparent field of view of 48°, are "extremely sharp" only over half of the field of view, which (compared to the TeleVue Plössls, for example) is a technological step backward: "It is extremely sharp from the center to the half of the field of view, and the star image swells toward the periphery." (see post #17)

Perhaps a thing you don't know but, as the patent is public : TV plössl are designed like anastigmats so the edge of the field is corrected.

 

They are sharp in center about 6° off-axis at f/15, then degrades ; between the 1/3rd and the 2/3rd it deviates, then stabilizes a bit before the edge.

 

This is not the behavior of old classical symetrical plössl for which the goal is to degrades continuously from center to edge.

And further optimized for asymetrical plössls like Clavé or Abbe duplet like Brandon for which the central zone correction is expanded at maximum and edges less controled than symetrical.

[Mike B]

I mean I'm happy with what I have... Of course if I get a chance I won't say no but I'm not going to buy one just out of curiosity…

Well, I did, and last nite was finally a “say yes” nite, one where schedule AND sky conditions all aligned to allow some scope time. Also handy timing that my beautiful new Tak TPL 12.5 arrived from LS&S!

 

Jeepers, Tak sure makes purdy stuff! I know it’s designed to look THRU, but no harm that it’s also nice to look AT!

The insertion sleeve is not shiny, but rather of a silky mat-finish. The rubber eyeguard resisted all efforts to fold down its vertical lip… but since it ain’t an eyeglass-friendly design ANYways, who cares? With the eyeguard lip on its natural up position, the EP is killer-comfy to use, and I found it nestled my nekkid eye perfectly.

 

Got to compare its views to a handful of other finely crafted Japanese favorites utilizing my 80mm f/~6 ED.Apo ‘fractor; a newer 16mm Masuyama 85, an older Ultima 15WA, a Meade RG 10.5 Ortho, and a  Nikon micro 12 Ortho. Even broke out an older Japanese-made Meade Barlow to amp things up fer fun 

 

The Tak distinguished itself quite well, a deft & deliberate snap-to-focus, beautiful stellar points, and a nicely uniform black background where dozens of fainter stars pointedly announced their presence. Allowing the 40X view of a random nice double-star to drift to the field edge, I was not aware of any focal softening, so if it was there, it was beneath what I could visually distinguish at a 2mm exit.pupil. Oddly, I know these are spec’d at a 48* FoV, but it sure didn’t feel like 48, but rather somewhat more. When the old RG Ortho took a turn, it was decidedly Ortho-like… prob’ly 45*? The TPL just felt notably wider! Carting the whole team of EPs over to view the Double-Cluster was a delightful field trip! The TPL focused up quickly & easily, rendering tight (& colorful) stellar images everywhere! The Engagement Ring was nicely displayed, along with dozens of faint, misty points of light…. Including the dozens beneath the scope’s humble resolution, which render as a visual *glow* to some regions in the view! Tho clearly nowhere near as wide as the 85* Masuyama, the stellar presentations of each were more similar than different. Dare I say if the Masuyama had a similarly placed fieldstop, it would’ve made a fine Takahashi TPL? Or perhaps stated sideways, gimme some pliers- I’ll yank out the TPL’s fieldstop & we’ll see how it does as a Masuyama 85!  

 

There’s just such a delightful visual essence to the views displayed to the eye by these finely crafted Japanese Plossl EPs! At least at this early point of use, it seems to me the Takahashi TPL indeed remains true to this distinction  Am now eager to give it a run in the f/12 MK-67MakCass, where it would clock a 1.0mm exit.pupil… should be good with the coming gas giant season!

[lylver]

/.../

 

Got! Carting the whole team of EPs over to view the Double-Cluster was a delightful field trip! The TPL focused up quickly & easily, rendering tight (& colorful) stellar images everywhere! The Engagement Ring was nicely displayed, along with dozens of faint, misty points of light…. Including the dozens beneath the scope’s humble resolution, which render as a visual *glow* to some regions in the view!

... visual *glow*

 

That's what I consider a vivid experience of true DSO observer using top equipment.

Edited by lylver, 15 August 2023 - 03:40 PM.

[slavicek]

A discussion thread like this cost me $2,400 about 12 years ago. I got all worked up and thought I HAD TO HAVE the zao II set. That was $600 an eyepiece and if you wanted new you had to buy the set.

I rarely use them and when I am in the mood for tiny glass which is practically never I prefer the Pentax xo's. For those who have never heard of them they were 2.5 and 5 mm.

Greg N

You are right, you don't need that useless Zao II set. I will be happy to help you get rid of it.... Whenever you are ready.

[jrazz]

Well, I did, and last nite was finally a “say yes” nite, one where schedule AND sky conditions all aligned to allow some scope time. Also handy timing that my beautiful new Tak TPL 12.5 arrived from LS&S!

 

Jeepers, Tak sure makes purdy stuff! I know it’s designed to look THRU, but no harm that it’s also nice to look AT!

The insertion sleeve is not shiny, but rather of a silky mat-finish. The rubber eyeguard resisted all efforts to fold down its vertical lip… but since it ain’t an eyeglass-friendly design ANYways, who cares? With the eyeguard lip on its natural up position, the EP is killer-comfy to use, and I found it nestled my nekkid eye perfectly.

 

Got to compare its views to a handful of other finely crafted Japanese favorites utilizing my 80mm f/~6 ED.Apo ‘fractor; a newer 16mm Masuyama 85, an older Ultima 15WA, a Meade RG 10.5 Ortho, and a  Nikon micro 12 Ortho. Even broke out an older Japanese-made Meade Barlow to amp things up fer fun 

 

The Tak distinguished itself quite well, a deft & deliberate snap-to-focus, beautiful stellar points, and a nicely uniform black background where dozens of fainter stars pointedly announced their presence. Allowing the 40X view of a random nice double-star to drift to the field edge, I was not aware of any focal softening, so if it was there, it was beneath what I could visually distinguish at a 2mm exit.pupil. Oddly, I know these are spec’d at a 48* FoV, but it sure didn’t feel like 48, but rather somewhat more. When the old RG Ortho took a turn, it was decidedly Ortho-like… prob’ly 45*? The TPL just felt notably wider! Carting the whole team of EPs over to view the Double-Cluster was a delightful field trip! The TPL focused up quickly & easily, rendering tight (& colorful) stellar images everywhere! The Engagement Ring was nicely displayed, along with dozens of faint, misty points of light…. Including the dozens beneath the scope’s humble resolution, which render as a visual *glow* to some regions in the view! Tho clearly nowhere near as wide as the 85* Masuyama, the stellar presentations of each were more similar than different. Dare I say if the Masuyama had a similarly placed fieldstop, it would’ve made a fine Takahashi TPL? Or perhaps stated sideways, gimme some pliers- I’ll yank out the TPL’s fieldstop & we’ll see how it does as a Masuyama 85! 

 

There’s just such a delightful visual essence to the views displayed to the eye by these finely crafted Japanese Plossl EPs! At least at this early point of use, it seems to me the Takahashi TPL indeed remains true to this distinction  Am now eager to give it a run in the f/12 MK-67MakCass, where it would clock a 1.0mm exit.pupil… should be good with the coming gas giant season!

Right?

 

You tell people "hey this is a pretty nifty eyepiece, I like it" and out come the "it's too expensive" and "just a Plössl" and "not as good as XXX".

 

I'm with you. They are a pleasure to use. Made really well, feel nice to look through and seem to perform really well. I bet in a couple of years when the glass stock runs out some will talk of them in hushed tones like we do for Ultimas, Parks, ZAO, etc... 

[SandyHouTex]

I already posted that link above and on the binocular forum. Are you ignoring me because I'm a Televe fan? LOL

BTW I'm also a Nikon fan, a Canon fan, a Swift fan...............

No, I don't have you on ignore      yet.  And I didn't remember seeing it in this thread earlier.  It's a fascinating video.

[SandyHouTex]

Well, I did, and last nite was finally a “say yes” nite, one where schedule AND sky conditions all aligned to allow some scope time. Also handy timing that my beautiful new Tak TPL 12.5 arrived from LS&S!

 

Jeepers, Tak sure makes purdy stuff! I know it’s designed to look THRU, but no harm that it’s also nice to look AT!

The insertion sleeve is not shiny, but rather of a silky mat-finish. The rubber eyeguard resisted all efforts to fold down its vertical lip… but since it ain’t an eyeglass-friendly design ANYways, who cares? With the eyeguard lip on its natural up position, the EP is killer-comfy to use, and I found it nestled my nekkid eye perfectly.

 

Got to compare its views to a handful of other finely crafted Japanese favorites utilizing my 80mm f/~6 ED.Apo ‘fractor; a newer 16mm Masuyama 85, an older Ultima 15WA, a Meade RG 10.5 Ortho, and a  Nikon micro 12 Ortho. Even broke out an older Japanese-made Meade Barlow to amp things up fer fun 

 

The Tak distinguished itself quite well, a deft & deliberate snap-to-focus, beautiful stellar points, and a nicely uniform black background where dozens of fainter stars pointedly announced their presence. Allowing the 40X view of a random nice double-star to drift to the field edge, I was not aware of any focal softening, so if it was there, it was beneath what I could visually distinguish at a 2mm exit.pupil. Oddly, I know these are spec’d at a 48* FoV, but it sure didn’t feel like 48, but rather somewhat more. When the old RG Ortho took a turn, it was decidedly Ortho-like… prob’ly 45*? The TPL just felt notably wider! Carting the whole team of EPs over to view the Double-Cluster was a delightful field trip! The TPL focused up quickly & easily, rendering tight (& colorful) stellar images everywhere! The Engagement Ring was nicely displayed, along with dozens of faint, misty points of light…. Including the dozens beneath the scope’s humble resolution, which render as a visual *glow* to some regions in the view! Tho clearly nowhere near as wide as the 85* Masuyama, the stellar presentations of each were more similar than different. Dare I say if the Masuyama had a similarly placed fieldstop, it would’ve made a fine Takahashi TPL? Or perhaps stated sideways, gimme some pliers- I’ll yank out the TPL’s fieldstop & we’ll see how it does as a Masuyama 85! 

 

There’s just such a delightful visual essence to the views displayed to the eye by these finely crafted Japanese Plossl EPs! At least at this early point of use, it seems to me the Takahashi TPL indeed remains true to this distinction  Am now eager to give it a run in the f/12 MK-67MakCass, where it would clock a 1.0mm exit.pupil… should be good with the coming gas giant season!

Nice review.  Thanks.

[Scott99]

 

Jeepers, Tak sure makes purdy stuff! I know it’s designed to look THRU, but no harm that it’s also nice to look AT!

The insertion sleeve is not shiny, but rather of a silky mat-finish.

Good point!  The barrels are reminiscent of the old Meade Research Grade.  I like the elegant minimalism....I'd give a 10/10 on build quality.  These feel and look nicer in practice than in the photos.  No need to clutter things up with big neon letters, shiny veneer and chromed barrel...grooves where things should be smooth. 

 

It's the same Japanese aesthetic that's served me well since the eyepieces from the 80's Jaegers and Univ. optics catalogs....the pre-Tele Vue days of yore     Waiting for skies to clear again so I can try them in my f/7 scope.

 

Fully admit this is like being a wine snob!  Maybe worse than wine connisseurs...we're in there with stereo people who pay $800 for gold speaker wires because they can hear a difference
 

Edited by Scott99, 16 August 2023 - 11:49 AM.

[Scott99]

???  The TOEs have been discontinued;  there must be a reason for that.   

 

EDIT:  I guess not, retracted!

 

Yes, a 5mm is necessary.

I'm very sad about the 5mm LE and 7.5mm LE going away, they were a perfect complement to plossls in the longer focal lengths.   They only needed 5 lenses to work well.  The TOE's are nice but maybe better suited to even shorter focal lengths, I see them as a replacement for the Hi-orthos and Hi-LE's that all had more than 5 elements and only 40-50 degree FOV.

 

Things have been fairly busy the last 5 years at the Tak/Masuyama factory, hopefully we see more new options including more TPL's.

Edited by Scott99, 16 August 2023 - 11:51 AM.

[Mike W]

Purdy stuff like my 30 year old Nikon binoculars?

Edited by Mike W, 16 August 2023 - 11:49 AM.

[jeffmac]

Good point!  The barrels are reminiscent of the old Meade Research Grade.  I like the elegant minimalism....I'd give a 10/10 on build quality.  These feel and look nicer in practice than in the photos.  No need to clutter things up with big neon letters, shiny veneer and chromed barrel...grooves where things should be smooth. 

 

It's the same Japanese aesthetic that's served me well since the eyepieces from the 80's Jaegers and Univ. optics catalogs....the pre-Tele Vue days of yore     Waiting for skies to clear again so I can try them in my f/7 scope.

 

Fully admit this is like being a wine snob!  Maybe worse than wine connisseurs...we're in there with stereo people who pay $800 for gold speaker wires because they can hear a difference
 

How is the ER (Ear Relief) on those gold speaker wires though?

[Starman1]

Many years ago, I participated in a double blind test of speaker wires.

With the same electronics and speakers, the only wire that yielded an audible different was a cheap 18 gauge wire.

It was the only one with a resistance over 0.001ohm as well.

Likely, it affected the damping factor of the amplifier. No other wire yielded an audible difference.

 

The analogy today is the claim that one eyepiece is noticeably sharper than another on axis when lab tests show the differences are too small to be visible.

For sure, there are differences, many of them quite visible, but sharpness on axis has a dozen factors affecting it, almost all of which are external to the eyepiece.

 

Good eyepieces are good eyepieces, and if the TPLs are good eyepieces, they only add to an already huge pile of good ones, which is not a bad thing at all.

Edited by Starman1, 16 August 2023 - 02:10 PM.