261 replies to this topic

[GSBass]

I certainly think zwo has done well with this launch, the only correction to what you said is seestar does not derotate, you still lose substantial fov that needs to be cropped out on longer exposures, perhaps you were thinking of dithering… Vaonis solution to that is CovalENS and I have my doubts zwo will be able to match that, they will have a mosaic mode but I think that will be limited to just stitching, , but anyway if your curious how Vaonis plans to react to the competition then just check out the specs of Vespera pro, larger square sensor, 12mp with 32mp mosaics. No doubt ZwO may try to compete with that also but it’s speculation of if and when… by the time they do I expect stellina pro will be announced… competition is a good thing, so far seestar has not done anything new, they just managed to produce a nice unit at a lower pricepoint.. but that’s great, brings more people in to robotics…. No doubt people who really love the experience will be looking hard at what’s available for their next upgrade. As far as hestia…. It’s not really a robot… just a beginner scope, it was not intended to compete with seestar or dwarf, they have sold a ton but it was a different market segment. In robotics I think Vaonis will be able to hold their own in the higher end market….so far it’s just speculation on whether zwo will even do a high end robot….they still have to tread lightly to not cannibalize their other products and will have to decide still if they want to go all in and make robotics their primary focus…. A decision for the bean counters I guess

Yes, I too am extremely impressed with the strides made by Stellina/Vespera since they were each introduced. In addition to Coval, mosaic mode, etc.. I especially feel that the stacking algorithm used by Vaonis has tremendously improved over the years….I haven’t noticed any changes to the EVscope 2 processing over the same time period, but they may have been more subtle. Certainly, Vaonis does seem ready and eager to support their products well beyond their debut.

 

On the other hand, ZWO is the first “major player” to enter the smart scope arena. No kickstarter here….with all the funds, resources, marketing experience and R & D budget that implies. Their unique experience with Aisair will certainly assist in the initial and ongoing development of the interface. While Stellina has done a hell of a job developing the product since launch (IMO), I can’t see how they can compete against ZWO over the long haul. ZWO made sure to match the Stellina in terms of it’s user friendliness….it also can de-rotate, autofocus, apply heating to counter dew, will not require collimation, etc…These “convenience” features really add up to a hassle free user experience…….the EVscope 2 and it’s variants simply do not measure up in this regard, leaving only Vaonis as the competition. 
At this point in time, as compared to the Stellina, the single most glaring deficiency of the ZWO S50 is the aperture size. While Vaonis has a few exclusive (for now) software tricks in it’s bag (mosaic mode, expert mode, CovalENS, etc), no doubt ZWO will introduce similar enhancements in short order. Still, 80mm vs 50mm is a tough stat to overcome.

However, let’s not forget that ZWO includes a solar filter AND carry case,.….and costs just over 1/8 of what the Stellina does. 1/8 is not just “less expensive”, it is quite literally a fraction of the cost of the Stellina.

At this point in time, I believe the Vaonis Stellina is still “king” of the smart telescope field in terms of what I consider to be the most important category…..picture quality and ease of data capture/retrieval. However, even now at it’s launch, ZWO already offers a more versatile (solar out of the box), portable (size, weight, included case) and economical product.
I have no personal experience with the Vespera, but I will be curious as to how the pic quality will stack up against the S50, considering it has the same apeture and would make for a more appropriate comparison. While the Vaonis head start and demonstrated expertise at stacking algorithms will be a formidable initial advantage, I just can’t see ZWO missing an opportunity to squash the competition while still in infancy. Hestia is a whiles away, and Hyperion is no doubt a niche product (if it even exists at all, as I haven’t heard of even a single unit out in the wild). I simply cannot see a scenario whereby Vaonis can withstand such a competitive challenge. At least, that’s how I see things playing out.

Either way, we can both agree to disagree on the above points…..while at the same time, both eagerly looking towards the future. 
 

Once they develop the line over the next few years (s80?, s100? S120!)……no fuss EAA heaven awaits us all!

[Goldypoker]

About 2 yrs ago I bought a Stellina... easy to use but not my thing. Even though I had to pay not only return shipping, but also reimburse for the original free shipping to me, I bit that bullet and sent it back. I put the money into the Lunt 100MT. Much better purchase for me.

Regardless of the Stellina vs S50 debate, or for that matter, the larger “robotic” smart scope debate….I would say you made a sound decision. While I myself was amazed at what the Stellina could do from my bortle challenged observation locations, I realized that amazement was more of a reflection of my own poor skills at astrophotography. At $4K, the Stellina represents a substantial investment…and, if I were in any way a competent astrophotographer, I wouldnt even consider it. As many have said, you can do far better for far less $ (leaving rig setup time, expertise and know how aside)….so, my own technical shortcomings are a huge part of what makes Stellina a real treat for me. 
The Lunt opens up an entirely new category, and you are certainly at the upper end of that with the 100! Daytime, solar observations…and with the total eclipse heading our way. Sweet!

Even 50s are becoming more and more scarce and harder to source, Ive noticed as of late. 

so you are in an optimal position these days.

[GSBass]

Plus it’s important to remember it was the first of a breed and it’s getting pretty old at this point… I actually expected it to be upgraded before Vespera was but I guess they felt like more time would benefit that project… but it is coming, I would expect an announcement in early summer after vespera pro starts shipping. I think the price will remain high ,3k-3.5k but it will probably feature best chips available, built in field flattener etc and probably a little more portable too. I have been tempted to wait for it however vespera pro is probably a big enough upgrade to keep me happy for a while and is more within my budget..plus will have it in spring

Regardless of the Stellina vs S50 debate, or for that matter, the larger “robotic” smart scope debate….I would say you made a sound decision. While I myself was amazed at what the Stellina could do from my bortle challenged observation locations, I realized that amazement was more of a reflection of my own poor skills at astrophotography. At $4K, the Stellina represents a substantial investment…and, if I were in any way a competent astrophotographer, I wouldnt even consider it. As many have said, you can do far better for far less $ (leaving rig setup time, expertise and know how aside)….so, my own technical shortcomings are a huge part of what makes Stellina a real treat for me. 
The Lunt opens up an entirely new category, and you are certainly at the upper end of that with the 100! Daytime, solar observations…and with the total eclipse heading our way. Sweet!

Even 50s are becoming more and more scarce and harder to source, Ive noticed as of late. 

so you are in an optimal position these days.

[Goldypoker]

I thought I had read that derotating was an S50 feature, although I understood(?)that it was a software (rather than a hardware) application. I certainly don’t doubt your statement, as I must concede your expertise in the subject matter and have thoroughly enjoyed reading many of your posts (both defending, critiquing and extolling the many virtues of these smart scopes against a multitude of smart scope haters in post after post). As an aside, I should say that all of us smart scope fans appreciated that effort and perseverance in this regard on your part! Nothing like the “old guard” when it comes to raining on a parade.‍♂
I too am impressed by the Coval implementation by Vaonis (at least, in the Stellina), although my assessment is based on a comparison of pics before and after it’s introduction rather than a technical understanding of it’s nuances.

While ZWO is not the undisputed king of the EAA world (for example, the current consensus based on my reading is that the live stacking feature in Sharpcap is “better” than Asiair), they certainly are heavily invested in the astrophotography end of the business. Certainly more so than any of the other major players. As such, I feel it is only a matter of time until they can overcome any of the proprietary features that distinguish the Vaonis products as comparatively superior in any category. Their pricing at launch seems to implicate an intent to disrupt the existing market, which is certainly good news for consumers, but bad news for Stellina. I commend Vaonis for it’s ongoing support and improvement of their products over time……but, economies of scale are the most difficult obstacles for Stellina at this point.

I wish them well, and they have provided me with countless hours of astro pleasure, but to my understanding of business models….it will not allow for their continued existence.

Edited by Goldypoker, 18 September 2023 - 11:29 AM.

[Goldypoker]

Plus it’s important to remember it was the first of a breed and it’s getting pretty old at this point… I actually expected it to be upgraded before Vespera was but I guess they felt like more time would benefit that project… but it is coming, I would expect an announcement in early summer after vespera pro starts shipping. I think the price will remain high ,3k-3.5k but it will probably feature best chips available, built in field flattener etc and probably a little more portable too. I have been tempted to wait for it however vespera pro is probably a big enough upgrade to keep me happy for a while and is more within my budget..plus will have it in spring

I was hoping for the Stellina 2 when they sent out emails teasing for the Hestia…..oh well.

 

It will *probably* happen one day, if Vaonis wants to truly put the effort in to compete.

 

I look forward to your first light on the V2!

Edited by Goldypoker, 18 September 2023 - 11:27 AM.

[GSBass]

Thank you, these days I try to just be an advocate for robotics in general because I really do see zwo’ entrance as a positive thing. I’m still rooting for dwarf lab too… they seem to be finally rounding the corner to maturing their software… it will still take them a while but I’ve been playing with their beta and they have made significant progress. The only outlier seems to be unistellar, they have been pretty silent and I have seen some people give up on that platform… mostly seen that in the Vaonis forums , they still have it but abandoned using it much after getting their vespera

I thought I had read that derotating was an S50 feature, although I understood(?)that it was a software (rather than a hardware) application. I certainly don’t doubt your statement, as I must concede your expertise in the subject matter and have thoroughly enjoyed reading many of your posts (both defending, critiquing and extolling the many virtues of these smart scopes against a multitude of smart scope haters in post after post). As an aside, I should say that all of us smart scope fans appreciated that effort and perseverance in this regard on your part! Nothing like the “old guard” when it comes to raining on a parade.‍♂
I too am impressed by the Coval implementation by Vaonis (at least, in the Stellina), although my assessment is based on a comparison of pics before and after it’s introduction rather than a technical understanding of it’s nuances.

While ZWO is not the undisputed king of the EAA world (for example, the current consensus based on my reading is that the live stacking feature in Sharpcap is “better” than Asiair), they certainly are heavily invested in the astrophotography end of the business. Certainly more so than any of the other major players. As such, I feel it is only a matter of time until they can overcome any of the proprietary features that distinguish the Vaonis products as comparatively superior in any category. Their pricing at launch seems to implicate an intent to disrupt the existing market, which is certainly good news for consumers, but bad news for Stellina. I commend Vaonis for it’s ongoing support and improvement of their products over time……but, economies of scale are the most difficult obstacles for Stellina at this point.

I wish them well, and they have provided me with countless hours of astro pleasure, but to my understanding of business models….it will not allow for their continued existence.

[GSBass]

I can only speculate on decisions Vaonis is currently making, they really are a small company that has used local manufacturing and assembly and it was a very heavy lift with multiple hurdles for them, but they stuck with it and came out the other side very healthy and wiser. The Hestia was a pretty huge departure from their normal way of doing business, this was their first outsourcing to China so that they could mass produce those scopes. So I imagine lots of new relationships are being built that will allow them to maybe get the price down further on future robotic entries… or they may decide to keep building them in house… it’s a guess but the current supply chain has been an ongoing thorn in their side…. I think the long preorder time for Vespera pro is tied to Rasberry getting their act together, the pi5 release is still not public knowledge and I think that board will be the backbone of v2

I was hoping for the Stellina 2 when they sent out emails teasing for the Hestia…..oh well.

 

It will *probably* happen one day, if Vaonis wants to truly put the effort in to compete.

 

I look forward to your first light on the V2!

[Battlestamps]

Sept. 18th Update from Agena Astro:

 

Availability Update (Last revised 18 September):

Pre-orders received by 22 April are on the way to ZWO's US distribution center and expected to ship to us at the end of September.
Pre-orders received by 22 May are expected to ship in mid-October.
Pre-orders received from 23 May through about mid-September are expected to ship in November and December.
Orders placed now will likely not ship until early 2024.
We will contact customers as their units become available.
All of this is still subject to change. Any further updates will be posted here at all times. We kindly ask that you not email us separately as any available information will be listed here. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

[DarrylS]

Just received my shipping notice -- I pulled the trigger very early on. I'm pretty pumped after seeing some of the images coming out.

[carolinaskies]

Been keeping abreast of the trickle of updates coming out from the various reviewers.  Cuiv has a new video of the Seestar on two nebula targets from Tokyo(worst light pollution case possible short of being on the Sun... lol).  What he's able to pull out from them pretty much indicates the ground floor of the Seestar is amazingly capable before the software changes which will make it even better able to pull in data.  https://youtu.be/MTb...x6sfm7Tom37rDxn

[Jeff Struve]

To me it's more about processing skills... mediocre data can do well with a master processor.

[GSBass]

This is true, however mediocre data is the result of people not letting exposures run long enough, unfortunately either sky conditions ar impatience affect this. If you let these robots run a while then processing becomes much more basic and easy. They are capable of giving great data but we are talking 2-3hrs

To me it's more about processing skills... mediocre data can do well with a master processor.

[Jeff Struve]

Agreed... but specifically speaking of the S50... you have mediocre glass and a mediocre color sensor on an AltAz mount restricting exposure length to 10 seconds...

[GSBass]

I think we have discussed this before, I just feel the 462c does not get the credit it deserves… I agree it is 2mp and it limited but it does produce beautiful photos as long as it is allowed enough time on targets…. Lots of Dso do not even require more pixel density to show detail…. I’m also not really seeing any problems with seestars optics so far, seems fine for its aperture but that may vary scope to scope…. I know there is a pretty wide variation of optics in the dwarf system so I think that’s just a mass produced expectation

Agreed... but specifically speaking of the S50... you have mediocre glass and a mediocre color sensor on an AltAz mount restricting exposure length to 10 seconds...

[tarbat]

Agreed... but specifically speaking of the S50... you have mediocre glass and a mediocre color sensor on an AltAz mount restricting exposure length to 10 seconds...

And with adequate integration time, you get very acceptable results straight out of the telescope, no need to process.  Many of the beginners (and experienced users!!) using the Seestar for the first time are more than pleased with the results, with no post-processing.

 

Note these images were taken under less than ideal conditions with high clouds and poor seeing.

 

Edited by tarbat, 22 September 2023 - 11:29 AM.

[carolinaskies]

Not sure why anyone would think $500 should buy them an instant APOD-like capability with Hubble color pallette and 16bit color depth.  The Seestar and Dwarf II are tools to ENJOY the skies at a deeper level, I think they both do that well.  Honestly, we are being spoiled by such quick gratification on the level change of the first CCD cameras amateurs could buy.  I remember when I used my Sony Hi8 Handicam with 0Lux thru my 8" LX200 and we could watch the ring nebula at 480p on it's itty bitty screen.   Now we can get iterative stacking live on a cellphone at 1080p for less than just my Handicam cost me!  

[tarbat]

And with adequate integration time, you get very acceptable results straight out of the telescope, no need to process.  Many of the beginners (and experienced users!!) using the Seestar for the first time are more than pleased with the results, with no post-processing.

 

And with some basic post-processing in Siril, the results can be improved.

 

[GSBass]

Even basic level adjustment with default phone/tablet apps can improve a lot…especially right now while zwo is tweaking

And with some basic post-processing in Siril, the results can be improved.

 

[saga01]

I ordered a S50 recently. I’ve never used my phone / tablet to do any enhancement / adjustment. What apps are people using to do this?  Thanks.

[GSBass]

Most use affinity iOS for stretching, I use pixalmator photo editor, lots of valuable tools in that one

I ordered a S50 recently. I’ve never used my phone / tablet to do any enhancement / adjustment. What apps are people using to do this?  Thanks.

[saga01]

Thanks!

Edited by saga01, 22 September 2023 - 02:26 PM.

[Gvs]

Sept. 18th Update from Agena Astro:

 

Availability Update (Last revised 18 September):

Pre-orders received by 22 April are on the way to ZWO's US distribution center and expected to ship to us at the end of September.
Pre-orders received by 22 May are expected to ship in mid-October.
Pre-orders received from 23 May through about mid-September are expected to ship in November and December.
Orders placed now will likely not ship until early 2024.
We will contact customers as their units become available.
All of this is still subject to change. Any further updates will be posted here at all times. We kindly ask that you not email us separately as any available information will be listed here. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

If we assume the above to be true for all stores, not just Agena Astro, we can speculate the following:

 

Order Date ------ Ship to Store

 

<= April 22nd ---- Sep 30th

<= May 22nd ---- Oct 15th

<= June 25nd --- Nov 15th

<= June 30th ---- Nov 30th

<= July 31st ------ Dec 15th (Expect this to slip until Jan)

<= Sep 15th ------ Dec 30th (Expect this to slip until Feb)

 

The advantage of those, that have ordered their unit by June or Sep.  Is they will get improved versions, as users in the first batches will find somethings they would like to see improved.  Regardless ZWO hit a sweet spot with this telescope, based on the interest seen here, and out of the box capabilities shown in multiple demos.

 

Kudos to ZWO for providing a product that most newbies and experienced Astrophotography fans appreciate.

 

Looking forward to equatorial versions that behave alike and are 3-6" in aperture.  If they can expand this to 8"-16" RC's, that would be a game changer.   Make the camera and filters plug and play, and there you have something that will be consumed by many.  Others who like to tinker, will still prefer the traditional setups.

Edited by Gvs, 22 September 2023 - 07:02 PM.

[azsun]

 

 

Updated on September 25, 2023

Dear Valued Customers,

We appreciate your patience and support as we work diligently to fulfill your pre-orders. We understand that you’ve been eagerly awaiting your purchases, and we want to provide you with the most up-to-date information regarding the shipping schedule.

Please note the following estimated shipping timelines based on the date of your pre-order:

1. Pre-orders received by April 13th have already been shipped out by the end of August.
2. Pre-orders received by April 17th have already been shipped out by September 22nd.
3. Pre-orders received by April 30th are expected to ship in mid-October.
4. Pre-orders received by May 15th are expected to ship by the end of October.
5. Customers who place orders after May 15th will have their shipments processed gradually starting in November. At this time, we are unable to provide specific shipping dates for post-May orders, but we will update you as soon as we have more information.

We will proactively contact customers as their units become available, providing tracking information and shipping details.

 

ZWO posted this update on their website for those who pre-ordered directly from them.

[Tony Bonanno]

Mine is suppose to arrive today from Astronomics.  I was in the first batch to order in April.  I'm already running two imaging and EAA platforms with far more capability, but I think this small, portable Seestar will be perfect for taking on trips, giving night sky "introductions" to friends and family, etc.  I think it will be an easy to use educational tool. I'll find out soon enough. :-)

[carolinaskies]

Mine is suppose to arrive today from Astronomics.  I was in the first batch to order in April.  I'm already running two imaging and EAA platforms with far more capability, but I think this small, portable Seestar will be perfect for taking on trips, giving night sky "introductions" to friends and family, etc.  I think it will be an easy to use educational tool. I'll find out soon enough. :-)

I could see the Seestar being fitted into a series of mini-dome systems that could be mounted on piers in just about any location for public use via a dedicated tablet.  The public doesn't have to touch the Seestar, just choose targets and enjoy the results.  With Windows 11 this could even be done as a larger touch screen panel giving access and fun display.  

The use as a solar spot watching device over time is also an interesting concept I thought about.  With the Seestar it could be plugged into a permanent power source and a scheduling system setup to take videos.  Similarly it could be used for lunar occultations and such.