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ATCO 1252 Restoration & Related Scopes

Classic Refractor
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#26 Kasmos

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Posted 31 August 2023 - 01:48 PM

I wire brush them some by hand before dunking them in the Evapo-Rust and thought that the rust might be just a layer over intact chrome, so I didn't get too aggressive before doing so. When removed they looked like oxidized bare metal so I got agressive with the wire wheel. I can't really say why they polished up so bright and look like chrome again. It could be the type of metal they are made from. They actually look better than in the photo since the resolution makes the photo look a bit grainy.

 

Since then I put some of those tiny tripod screws (very rusty) in Evapo-Rust for 24 hours and they came out bare and gray. I did wire brush them by hand but left them brown to see if it would all come off. A couple of them had flakes that were brushed off and soaked again and they came out pretty nice. Originally I thought that they might come out bright but now realise that's being unrealistic. I'm not sure how I'll handle them since obviously they now have no plating. I'll probably just reinstall them and paint the heads.


Edited by Kasmos, 31 August 2023 - 01:48 PM.


#27 Kasmos

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Posted 31 August 2023 - 02:33 PM

Wow that's amazing. The 6335 I'm working on was so grimy and oxidized I doubted it could be brought back to an acceptable state without stripping, filling, and painting. But no! Everything cleaned up fine. Not much rust, just a little on the cotter pins and chain roots on the legs. My main tool was my forefinger, armed with a charge of cerium oxide polishing compound, and a roll of paper towels.

 

-drl

Thanks!

I like to leave a scope as original as possible and find a lot can be saved on these scopes with only some elbow grease and touch ups. It seems that many times people jump to stripping and repainting everything too quickly. The Manon and Mizar restorations I did show how much can be done without resigning oneself to that.  

 

https://www.cloudyni...y-it-was-dirty/

 

https://www.cloudyni...p-68r-681000mm/

 

and to a lesser degree a Hy-Score 451

https://www.cloudyni...o-hy-score-451/



#28 deSitter

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Posted 31 August 2023 - 03:49 PM

I wire brush them some by hand before dunking them in the Evapo-Rust and thought that the rust might be just a layer over intact chrome, so I didn't get too aggressive before doing so. When removed they looked like oxidized bare metal so I got agressive with the wire wheel. I can't really say why they polished up so bright and look like chrome again. It could be the type of metal they are made from. They actually look better than in the photo since the resolution makes the photo look a bit grainy.

 

Since then I put some of those tiny tripod screws (very rusty) in Evapo-Rust for 24 hours and they came out bare and gray. I did wire brush them by hand but left them brown to see if it would all come off. A couple of them had flakes that were brushed off and soaked again and they came out pretty nice. Originally I thought that they might come out bright but now realise that's being unrealistic. I'm not sure how I'll handle them since obviously they now have no plating. I'll probably just reinstall them and paint the heads.

I had a deely bobber (bonus points - what's a real db?) with minor rust - steel wool removed it in seconds.

 

-drl



#29 oldmanastro

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Posted 31 August 2023 - 10:15 PM

Truly amazing restoration work on this telescope. Congrats!


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#30 m0bius

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Posted 31 August 2023 - 11:10 PM

I had a deely bobber (bonus points - what's a real db?)...

 

-drl

 

"We don't need no stinkin' deely bobbers"

 

1200x0.jpg


Edited by m0bius, 31 August 2023 - 11:11 PM.

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#31 deSitter

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Posted 01 September 2023 - 01:09 AM

Thanks!

I like to leave a scope as original as possible and find a lot can be saved on these scopes with only some elbow grease and touch ups. It seems that many times people jump to stripping and repainting everything too quickly. The Manon and Mizar restorations I did show how much can be done without resigning oneself to that.  

 

https://www.cloudyni...y-it-was-dirty/

 

https://www.cloudyni...p-68r-681000mm/

 

and to a lesser degree a Hy-Score 451

https://www.cloudyni...o-hy-score-451/

That's superb work!

 

-drl


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#32 LukaszLu

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Posted 01 September 2023 - 03:54 PM

Impressive. I'm sorry, but that's all I have to say on this matter. :-)


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#33 YourNotSirius

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Posted 02 September 2023 - 08:46 AM

That finder is coming along very well. I see plenty of orange peel in the paint. That's hard to avoid when using spray bombs. An air brush would work wonders for that. Even so, lighter coats and polishing compound after it cures will make it look very close to original condition.

 

The cross hairs was a brilliant idea. We have used spider web filaments in the past. Apparently, that is what was used in many of the older scopes from Alvan Clark, William Mogey, John Brashear and so on. They certainly are easy enough to find. LOL

 

For the recessed lettering a single camel hair brush can be found and many art supply houses. If you hand is steady enough to use it that could solve your problem. I have used a sewing needle on such things and that works well. It takes time because you need to get just barely enough paint on the tip to fill and move without going over the edges of the letters and numbers. Thinning the paint helps. Normally, we use Testor's model paint for such things and then apply a thin film of clear over it.

 

Those cables came out totally boss! Those really look great! I'm definitely taking notes on what you did there!

 

FWIW

 

Q



#34 Kasmos

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Posted 02 September 2023 - 02:17 PM

That finder is coming along very well. I see plenty of orange peel in the paint. That's hard to avoid when using spray bombs. An air brush would work wonders for that. Even so, lighter coats and polishing compound after it cures will make it look very close to original condition.

 

The cross hairs was a brilliant idea. We have used spider web filaments in the past. Apparently, that is what was used in many of the older scopes from Alvan Clark, William Mogey, John Brashear and so on. They certainly are easy enough to find. LOL

 

For the recessed lettering a single camel hair brush can be found and many art supply houses. If you hand is steady enough to use it that could solve your problem. I have used a sewing needle on such things and that works well. It takes time because you need to get just barely enough paint on the tip to fill and move without going over the edges of the letters and numbers. Thinning the paint helps. Normally, we use Testor's model paint for such things and then apply a thin film of clear over it.

 

Those cables came out totally boss! Those really look great! I'm definitely taking notes on what you did there!

 

FWIW

 

Q

I'm usually a bit of a perfectionist but wasn't completely prepared or up for what this scope required, so I'm kind of cutting corners.

 

I have an airbrush but I get lazy about mixing paint and cleaning it afterwards. The black on the finder and the diagonal is the same paint and it came out really nice on the diagonal, but as I mentioned earlier, the noozle is hard to press so it sometimes made it difficult to get a nice even spray pattern. Also, it's usually windy where I live, so I'm always fighting that. Both the black parts and the tube were painted twice and I was loosing my patience so the second time I just let them be. 

 

The problem with the engraved lettering is it is quite faint after sanding off the corrosion and more so after painting. I'm a retired illustrator so I'm good with a brush but could still possibly screw it up, so I'm kind of choosing my battles for now.

 

I figure I can get the whole thing done and then if anything really bothers me, I'll redo them at my leisure. This scope was in such bad shape just about anything I do is better than it was.


Edited by Kasmos, 02 September 2023 - 02:19 PM.

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#35 YourNotSirius

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Posted 02 September 2023 - 05:07 PM

Painting is a work of art. It if was easy anyone could do it. The devil is in the details and the details are in the preparation. If there is even the slightest flaw in the base primer coat then it will show up like a flare when the color goes on! You are just using enamel. Try laying down 12 to 16 coats of lacquer and having to wet sand each coat before the next one!

 

In addition, this is a tiny little finder scope. Try that with big panels on show cars and trucks. Then you can learn real frustration caused by a single errant piece of hair!! That's why body shops and custom color houses get such high labor costs. BWHAHAHAHAHA!

 

It makes me happy that I'm a machinist and not in the body shop where the old man when he was younger. Compared to today's equipment, they were working in the stone age yet, they created some absolutely incredible show cars that very few can duplicate today! Like WOW man! LOL

 

It's your project. Put as much love into it as you feel it deserves.

 

Q



#36 Kasmos

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Posted 03 September 2023 - 01:17 AM

For the most part nobody uses lacquer or will even paint an old car anymore. I'm pretty well versed with what goes into painting stuff. I've restored a car and did all of the body work and prep and most of the paint. My brother has been building and painting guitars for years, I have a buddy who owned auto body shop and also painted Harleys and another friend who still shoots paint on his own bikes. These are old guys that I've known for decades. It's hard tedious work (especially the wet and color sanding) and anybody who does it for a living is crazy in my book.

 

A project like this is just something to play with and part of the fun is seeing what I can get away with and later you'll see just how far I push that. 

 

Anyhow, back to this silly little thing.

 

Screw-Yoke.jpg

This is the outside bottom of the mounts altitude tanget arm

It's really just to show it's condition and what the nut and screw is suppose to look like.

Between the two set screws a pivot point is created for the slow motion collar adjuster.

 

Brass-Screws.jpg

The adjuster on the inner side was broken off at the nut so I filled its end flat and cut a slot in it.

It's the shorter one (left and below) the long one, and they are the those old obsolete threads.

I could have made a new one with a nut, but didn't want to cut new threads in the arm

The two little set screws (bottom right) are ones I made for the finder from brass 6-32 screws.

 

Screw-yoke2.jpg

This is the inner side. A lock nut is not completely necessary plus it won't show.

Once I get the mount adjusted I can always put a dab of paint on the screw if it wants to move.

BTW, these little adjusters probably break quite often.

On badbacks scope I noticed they were broken on both sides.

 

Finder-Mnt-Top.jpg

The left lower back finder adjuster was frozen and snapped off while trying to remove it.

I was able to drill it out without damaging the threads and used the good one from the top in it's place.

The one on the right side stayed in place making the two bottom ones match.

I then replaced the top one with a slightly different thumbscrew from another finder.

 

Finder-Mnt-set-Screw.jpg

The back adjusters are brass but the front little set screws were steel and rusted in place.

I was able to get the top one out and reuse it, but the bottom two had to be drilled out.

Their holes were re-tapped for 6-32 threads and I made the two new screws (shown above) to fit.

I slightly rounded their points and did the same to the surviving top screw.

Which IMO had a way too sharp and damaging point.

 

Finder-Mnt-Side.jpg .

Just another shot of the finder mount.

Early on I had done some quick test touch ups, but it needs readdressing.

Between the back adjusters you can also see more evidence of that disturbing bubbling corrosion.


Edited by Kasmos, 03 September 2023 - 03:49 AM.

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#37 apfever

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Posted 03 September 2023 - 10:24 AM

Thanks!

I like to leave a scope as original as possible and find a lot can be saved on these scopes with only some elbow grease and touch ups. It seems that many times people jump to stripping and repainting everything too quickly. The Manon and Mizar restorations I did show how much can be done without resigning oneself to that.  

 

https://www.cloudyni...y-it-was-dirty/

 

https://www.cloudyni...p-68r-681000mm/

 

and to a lesser degree a Hy-Score 451

https://www.cloudyni...o-hy-score-451/

This string is exceptional. I'll elaborate on that later and briefly while leaving you alone to your methods. What rocked my boat right now is the quoted entry #27. The actual entry includes a quote by deSitter. 

 

I have the exact same make and model of Shrine Manon and Mizar. They both look identical to yours down to the finish and other factors that often change during a production. I've already gone through the Manon. I haven't touched the Mizar with so much as a refurbish. I will be referencing your work on both scopes. Like a lot of my projects, they stop when I have them all figured out. I lose interest when my insatiable curiosity is pacified to every single nut, bolt and casting. Reassembly is the most mundane and arduous of task for me if the scope is not an imminent user for looking at or through. I did an actual size ray trace for the Manon baffles, modified a baffle for optimization, confirmed the design, never installed them. The trace is for the Manon. The O.T. C80 is only holding down the paper - for several months. and there's that calculator I've been looking for. 

 

This string is exceptional. 

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Edited by apfever, 03 September 2023 - 10:45 AM.

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#38 Kasmos

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Posted 03 September 2023 - 11:51 AM

This string is exceptional. I'll elaborate on that later and briefly while leaving you alone to your methods. What rocked my boat right now is the quoted entry #27. The actual entry includes a quote by deSitter. 

 

I have the exact same make and model of Shrine Manon and Mizar. They both look identical to yours down to the finish and other factors that often change during a production. I've already gone through the Manon. I haven't touched the Mizar with so much as a refurbish. I will be referencing your work on both scopes. Like a lot of my projects, they stop when I have them all figured out. I lose interest when my insatiable curiosity is pacified to every single nut, bolt and casting. Reassembly is the most mundane and arduous of task for me if the scope is not an imminent user for looking at or through. I did an actual size ray trace for the Manon baffles, modified a baffle for optimization, confirmed the design, never installed them. The trace is for the Manon. The O.T. C80 is only holding down the paper - for several months. and there's that calculator I've been looking for. 

 

This string is exceptional. 

Neil, I've followed many of your threads so I appreciate theses statements coming from you.

 

As I walked out to the studio this morning I was thinking about what to do next. Like many projects I can sometimes run out of steam as they can be hard to finish once most of the challenges are over come and the newness of it wears off. The Manon OTA and much of it's other components and hardware were cleaned up and then the whole project was put on hold for 4 years before getting back to finishing it. Part of the drive to getting it back together was the worry of it being in pieces if something was to happen to me.   


Edited by Kasmos, 03 September 2023 - 08:41 PM.


#39 YourNotSirius

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Posted 03 September 2023 - 09:50 PM

Neil, I've followed many of your threads so I appreciate theses statements coming from you.

 

As I walked out to the studio this morning I was thinking about what to do next. Like many projects I can sometimes run out of steam as they can be hard to finish once most of the challenges are over come and the newness of it wears off. The Manon OTA and much of it's other components and hardware were cleaned up and then the whole project was put on hold for 4 years before getting back to finishing it. Part of the drive to getting it back together was the worry of it being in pieces if something was to happen to me.   

Funny! I keep reminding the old man that if something happens to him a lot of what he has may well wind up in a dumpster! The looks I can get when I do that are priceless! BWHAHAHAHAHA!  However, he really does need to start thinking like that because he ain't no spring chicken no moh and the clock dun' be tickin'!

 

Q
 



#40 m0bius

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Posted 05 September 2023 - 06:16 PM

Anything you can use from this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204440341494

 

Not much there but it's interesting. Actually, everything about mine is different.

 

Shortly after Kasmos had declined Jordan's useful post re an ATCO 60/910 on Ebay, I decided to take the bait and grab it for parts...

Price was just too low in retrospect, the sender had no idea what it was and treated it like refuse.

 

Here's what I got in the mail: shocked.gif

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#41 m0bius

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Posted 05 September 2023 - 06:17 PM

More carnage - oh the humanity!!! :

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Edited by m0bius, 05 September 2023 - 06:18 PM.


#42 jragsdale

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Posted 05 September 2023 - 06:17 PM

Shortly after Kasmos had declined Jordan's useful post re an ATCO 60/910 on Ebay, I decided to take the bait and grab it for parts...

Price was just too low in retrospect, the sender had no idea what it was and treated it like refuse.

 

Here's what I got in the mail: shocked.gif

Whoa, they didn't even box it? That's an easy refund.


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#43 m0bius

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Posted 05 September 2023 - 06:21 PM

Whoa, they didn't even box it? That's an easy refund.

Yup, certainly won't be a financial concern. But the poor little guy...

 

At least the objective & cell appear to be undamaged!

I've worked out a deal with the sender, covering his cost for postage + some dollars in exchange for the objective/cell. That seems fair.

 

On the bright side, I'll have fun using the bits as a learning tool. I can learn myself some serious restoration with no risk.

 

PS. I really appreciated Jordan's post with the link, no hard feelings or anything. I had a tingle, begore I pressed buy, that things could go south. Ain't my first rodeo. 


Edited by m0bius, 05 September 2023 - 06:32 PM.

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#44 deSitter

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Posted 06 September 2023 - 01:06 AM

Yup, certainly won't be a financial concern. But the poor little guy...

 

At least the objective & cell appear to be undamaged!

I've worked out a deal with the sender, covering his cost for postage + some dollars in exchange for the objective/cell. That seems fair.

 

On the bright side, I'll have fun using the bits as a learning tool. I can learn myself some serious restoration with no risk.

 

PS. I really appreciated Jordan's post with the link, no hard feelings or anything. I had a tingle, begore I pressed buy, that things could go south. Ain't my first rodeo. 

You can never have too many 4mm x 0.75 screws :)

 

-drl


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#45 JoeVanGeaux

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Posted 06 September 2023 - 08:58 AM

More carnage - oh the humanity!!! :

Regarding the "stressed" dew shield, I wondered if mounting and "working" it in a ring roller would take out those waves and kinks?  It certainly cannot make it worse!


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#46 deSitter

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Posted 06 September 2023 - 10:12 AM

Regarding the "stressed" dew shield, I wondered if mounting and "working" it in a ring roller would take out those waves and kinks?  It certainly cannot make it worse!

Get it really hot with a torch while working it. Otherwise i think cracks are inevitable.

 

-drl



#47 apfever

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Posted 06 September 2023 - 11:18 AM

 I just took a bunch of pictures of this Mono 4384 this morning as a before picture that is about half way.  Then found the dew shield posted here. From my end there is no serious face factor oh oh oh how to do this, what to do...hmmmmm.  For get all that, at some point it's just funny.  I don't mean to be zip on compassion, I'm not. It didn't take me long at all to have a pretty good chuckle at the posted dew shield. 

 

I'm just dropping right into the expander but try a large diameter roller like a pipe that will fit in the dew sheild. Put down a thin buffer like a clean T on a clean surface like flat concrete. Stand on the pipe and make like a log roller. Have a hand support like a door jamb.  Sure a small pipe roller would be nice, I would ask why not?  

 

I'm going to measure this out and cut 8 wood slats to match the expander and create 16 spaced contact lines in the shield. These expanders can split a dew shield like these if you let them stick out too far. Always less than half out.  Once snug, I'll beat it with a soft mallet, then harder mallet to set the metal but not hammer to match Rustoleum Hammered. I won't file anything, find a small punch thing to tap the nick back in as well as it will go. 

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Edited by apfever, 06 September 2023 - 11:18 AM.

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#48 Kasmos

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Posted 06 September 2023 - 02:28 PM

More carnage - oh the humanity!!! :

As bad as it looks it's all restorable. The dewshield doesn't appear to have any sharp bends which is a good thing and the pinion can be straightened using the technique shown in post#9. I've done this to at least 4 or 5 of them.

 

While they only had one dent, I've straightened a couple of dewshields.

The link below is from a thread on dent removal.

 

https://www.cloudyni...tips/?p=7770019

 

If it's thread on dewshield I'd be hesitant to do the log roller trick like apfever mentioned.


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#49 JoeVanGeaux

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Posted 06 September 2023 - 07:44 PM

Get it really hot with a torch while working it. Otherwise i think cracks are inevitable.

 

-drl

You may be right. If rolled out, it would have to be done in very fine, slow increments for sure.  Heat would definitely help, here.

-JVG



#50 m0bius

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Posted 06 September 2023 - 10:47 PM

As bad as it looks it's all restorable. The dewshield doesn't appear to have any sharp bends which is a good thing and the pinion can be straightened using the technique shown in post#9. I've done this to at least 4 or 5 of them.

 

While they only had one dent, I've straightened a couple of dewshields.

The link below is from a thread on dent removal.

 

https://www.cloudyni...tips/?p=7770019

 

If it's thread on dewshield I'd be hesitant to do the log roller trick like apfever mentioned.

 

My post was intended to be a little more tongue-in-cheek perhaps. I am still scratching my head about how it was packaged (or not packaged).

 

I do appreciate all the good advice, but this is going on the get-around-to-it pile for later in the winter.

I plan on swapping out the objective & cell onto my other AO 60/910 to check out the figure in the meantime. I'll have a sample size of 2

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic... cool.gif


Edited by m0bius, 06 September 2023 - 10:47 PM.



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