23 replies to this topic

[iwols]

Hi been looking at the imx 571 mono sensor as a upgrade camera ,but the more i look the worse it get especially now we have rising cam/TP models at a lot less cost to the normal ZWO/Qhy versions,has anyone had experience with these as here in the uk the price gap is very large ,any thoughts comments appreciated

[frwaf bfds]

It’s probably not entirely accurate to describe the various astro cam companies as manufacturers, as the IMX571 sensors all come from Sony.
risingcam/ZWO/qhy mainly just build the cooling system + drivers/computer interface etc around the sensor.
So, I doubt there would be any difference in sensor quality - all their sensors come from the same source anyway.

[frwaf bfds]

The one possible small distinction seems to be “industrial” vs “consumer” grade IMX571 chips where the difference should lie in reliability and not so much performance. But it seems that ZWO uses the consumer grade chip anyway, so apart from the drivers/software side of things, there’s no improved chip performance on their side to justify the increased price.

[Cbaxter]

I don't know about current production ToupTek IMX571 but my RisingCam copy from 2020 has the industrial grade sensor and the OEM bar code label stated as such. I really don't know what that equates to in practice though.

Edited by Cbaxter, 22 August 2023 - 12:20 PM.

[Tomvictor]

Both IMX571 and IMX455  sensors are supplied in two variants:

Consumer grade sensors.

'The sensor manufacturer (Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation) limits their usage to consumer still cameras only with operation time max. 300 hours per year.

 

Industrial grade sensors, intended for devices operating 24/7.

 

ref.

https://www.gxccd.co...id=647&lang=409

[John Miele]

Cuiv the lazy geek talks about them in one of his youtube videos...

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=sg-Bxc22e6Q

[nemo129]

Another important difference between "consumer" and "industrial" sensors is the so-called "package" - the housing in which the sensor is embedded. In the case of consumer sensors, this package is often made of plastic, while in the case of industrial sensors ceramic is often used as the base material, which is much more temperature stable and guarantees a high degree of flatness of the sensor array with deep cooling.  - Source.

Edited by nemo129, 22 August 2023 - 01:44 PM.

[iwols]

thanks theres also the altair hypercam cam mid way ,interesting

Edited by iwols, 22 August 2023 - 06:13 PM.

[AaronH]

thanks theres also the altair hypercam cam mid way ,interesting

The Altair Hypercam is (like the RisingCam models) made by Touptek. Although it does have a very nice looking case!

 

I've been investigating IMX571 cameras over the past month, and the Touptek/RisingCam models are certainly attractive. I almost pulled the trigger on one, but just as I was about to do so, ZWO added a batch of refurbished ASI 2600MM Pro cameras to their website for not much more than the RisingCam. I snapped one up, and they sold out fast. Initial testing (limited to calibration frames at this point) suggests the refurb is indistinguishable from a new camera, so if more show up, that is an attractive option.

 

The Risingcam models claim to use an industrial sensor, so that seems like an advantage. I must have read hundreds of forum posts during my research, and the main disadvantages I found with the RisingCam model are driver/firmware quirks (e.g. intermittent banding that has been recently fixed, and some users report that they need to discard the first dark they take, because there is some residual signal there). Some users also report a less-effective anti-dew heater, and the lack of a tilt plate could be an inconvenience.

 

Had the refurb ZWO models not shown up, I'd have snapped up a RisingCam. One thing to note with the latest RisingCams is that they ship with both a 17.5mm and 12.5mm end-piece, which could be useful if you need that extra 5mm of backfocus allowance.

Edited by AaronH, 22 August 2023 - 07:26 PM.

[iwols]

thanks Aaron the only problem i have with the rising cam is here in the uk we would need to add import duties and vat making it not much cheaper than purchasing the altair from the uk

[iwols]

Looks like the Altair unless anyone can put me off it😗

[jessebear]

I bought the RisingCam IMX571M and I'm still investigating differences between its performance and that of the 2600MM. I had some concerns about noise that seemed more prevalent in the RC version, but direct comparisons are difficult due to firmware and setting differences. Eddie from RisingCam is kind and responsive, but basically blew me off after telling me his engineer said my camera is 'normal'.

[jessebear]

I should point out that Eddie may very well be completely correct and that he was only passing on information from the engineer. And passing it on very quickly at that. I need to make another thread and ask for more dark samples to be sure. A member of my local group was kind enough to send me some, but I don't want to burden him with asking for additional ones.

[Ar3s701]

I made a thread on the IMX571 sensor cameras a while back. Might have some good info for you:

 

https://www.cloudyni...imx571-cameras/

 

In my case I ended up purchasing the PlayerOne Poseidon M Pro and it has been an amazing camera.

[iwols]

Thanks some great info there

[JimTheEngineer]

An issue with ASI2600MC cameras is that the power supply needs to be connected before the USB port to operate. In that order! Otherwise the camera will not connect. With the Poseidon-C, Player One says you don’t have to connect to power unless you want the cooler to run. This is definitely one less point of failure you have to deal with…

[ngc2218]

Hi been looking at the imx 571 mono sensor as a upgrade camera ,but the more i look the worse it get especially now we have rising cam/TP models at a lot less cost to the normal ZWO/Qhy versions,has anyone had experience with these as here in the uk the price gap is very large ,any thoughts comments appreciated

I ordered the variant from Moravian Instruments, should be ready by the end of the month (6 weeks waiting time on average). Worth checking them, they make good stuff

[KGoodwin]

I've had great reliability and performance from my QHY.  When I recently needed a second camera I purchased the Play One model.  It's better in essentially every way than the QHY I was already very happy with.  I look forward to seeing how it holds up reliability-wise over several years.

[Michael Covington]

The price of the Altair 26C is right.  Does anyone know whether it uses the industrial-grade sensor?

[sn2006gy]

as far as i know they all use industrial grade because the non industrial grade is limited to specific uses with limited imaging hours in mind.

[KGoodwin]

as far as i know they all use industrial grade because the non industrial grade is limited to specific uses with limited imaging hours in mind.

At one point ZWO used the consumer model. I don’t know if that’s still the case. There are definitely some of the cameras being marketed which do use consumer sensors. I’ve never seen anyone actually do an analysis on longevity or performance or anything else on consumer vs industrial, though. It’s all sort of speculation. It probably makes some difference, but we haven’t quantified it as far as I know.

[Silent_Light]

My OGMA ap26cc. Imx 571 has been a trouble free dream to use

[joshman]

I looked into the Consumer v. Industrial sensor bit a while ago because it smelt a lot like marketing lingo to me.

• According to what I've been able to find online, with the exception of maybe the Mono version of the 455 sensor, If it's Mono, its an "industrial" grade sensor.
• And with the exception of possibly the Full frame and larger sensors, if you've got an OSC, then it is "Consumer" grade sensor. Sony don't appear to offer an alternative (unless the camera manufacturer has an arrangement for small bespoke production runs? [doubt] )

Sony's "Industrial" Sensor line-up.

Sony's "Consumer" Sensor line-up.

I don't think that its a case that consumer grade sensors are designed with "300" hours/year life. From what i've read elsewhere (sorry, can't find a link to it) the only real difference is that the "industrial" grade sensors are mounted on a ceramic package (terminology?) and the Consumer one are embedded in resin. So it is more likely that the MTBF for a small percentage of consumers sensors is around the 300 hrs mark.

My understanding of the manufacturing process would be:

• Sensor dies are created
• Sensor dies are tested
• bottom x% are deemed as failed, and destroyed
• the top 1% performers go on to the "industrial" grade finishing line, get the more expensive package sold at a higher price
• the rest go to the consumer finishing line for use in digital cameras, etc.
• out of that they could expect 5% to fail at 300hrs/year, the rest above that.
• market them as having a 300hr/yr cycle rate.

And TBH, i made those percentages up. but i would expect that the economics of any kind of IC production looks a bit like that. EG. a lot of the lower end CPU's are just higher end dies that failed testing to become higher end units.

With all the camera units out there, across the various manufacturers, the majority of which are being used far in excess of 300hr/yr, I've yet to read of a sensor failure. Degradation, certainly but that's to be expected, and its why we retake calibration files each year.

 

The real magic is in everything else - the cooling solution, electronics design/quality, drivers, software, etc. this focus on the "Industrial vs. consumer" sensor, is a distraction from what will really make or break your experience with a camera.

Edited by joshman, 16 June 2024 - 08:17 PM.

[Michael Covington]

My OGMA ap26cc. Imx 571 has been a trouble free dream to use

Although OGMA is not one of the bigger brands here, I must admit to being intrigued because they are only about 300 miles away from me.   How many OGMA users do we have here?

 

OGMA's curves for the read noise of their 571 color camera show a strange bump at gain = 1000.  What's that about?

Edited by Michael Covington, 16 June 2024 - 10:18 PM.