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Attracting young people to our hobby

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#101 Phil Cowell

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 11:41 AM

1 in 4 Americans believe the Sun orbits the earth. It appears the problem is not school standards but getting some to go to school in the first place. Here in NY a degree is required to be able to start teaching, followed by a Masters degree in a short time after starting teaching. The problem is when some states require no qualification to be able to teach school children.

 

https://time.com/780...n-orbits-earth/

 

 

I criticized your post on education but I want to echo this 100%. If you're interested in astronomy, do not feel like you need to join a club. Or post here even. Clubs and cloudynights are tools to better engage and enjoy amateur astronomy but one can have a fulfilling amateur astronomy "career" without ever speaking to another amateur. I was six years deep in the hobby before I met someone else like me. (Thanks, library). 

 

And, yeah, when you work, this can be a hard hobby. Don't fret about missing a clear night. Get out when you can, where you can. The universe will be there when you have the time.

 

 

Don, I saw your post on CA science HS requirements. If true, and I have no reason to doubt you, I understand your frustration and annoyance. That is...bad. But not common across the country. I hope you and other science favorable Californians can do something to affect that. Also, I'd point out, the folks making those decisions are, mostly, older than 40. Much in some cases. So, again, not the kids.


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#102 Phil Cowell

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 11:56 AM

In person social clubs are a fine example of what isn’t wanted by young members. If it was they would be thriving and the majority obviously are not. As Einstein stated “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”.

The old ways are gone for the majority of the young, you might not like it but that’s how it is. If you want to do one on one show and tell use zoom/Skype. I remember a post here from a member of the areas club That the streaming audience at a local star party was higher than in-person attendance.

Dreaming of the old days and ways isn’t going to bring them back, peoples preferences have changed and if you wan’t to reach the largest percentile, then you would have to change to reach them.

Contact isn’t always a prerequisite anymore. Many companies are loosing key workers as they no longer want to work in an office environment. They quit and work for a company that allows remote working. Amazon are in court having to prove folks have to go to the office. If folks would rather quit their jobs than go into the office getting them to a club isn’t going to happen.

 

https://www.shrm.org...the-office.aspx

https://www.business...ate-2023-9?op=1

 

Hear, hear. What the virtual cannot provide is contact--with people, scopes, dark skies, targets, challenges and successes all under mentorship. It is a different way to communicate--personal, intimate, instead of abstract. In a club or out, find someone who is interested in astronomy and offer to mentor them. It works. I learned to climb with older, superior climbers and went on to do some of the hardest routes in Yosemite in the 60s. I never read a book on how to climb. Many people here have an astounding knowledge of the nuts and bolts of amateur astronomy. Whether the discipline survives will be up to them. Will they/you stand forth and deliver?

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


Edited by Phil Cowell, 12 September 2023 - 12:07 PM.

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#103 rgk901

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 12:16 PM

lol, of course no one wants to go back to the office. but guarantee you 'they' are at the coffee shop/bar/beach etc and are fine in that being 'onsite' haha

Edited by rgk901, 12 September 2023 - 12:17 PM.

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#104 Phil Cowell

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 03:17 PM

Part of the 32%.

 

lol, of course no one wants to go back to the office. but guarantee you 'they' are at the coffee shop/bar/beach etc and are fine in that being 'onsite' haha



#105 Alex Swartzinski

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 04:45 PM

I've enjoyed how this thread is looking for deeper connections within society to describe changes in observer demographics.

Based on what I've seen, there's a few primary ideas:

1. Younger observers are around but use alternative methods to get their information instead of CN or clubs.

2. Younger generations care less about science than older generations because of internet culture, social media, and education standards.

3. It's always been a hobby for primarily older individuals with more income and time.

I think these are all valid points to an extent, but we seem to be missing something important in a demographic discussion: a lack of actual perspective from younger people.

Since we haven't gotten tons of replies from those claiming to be under 40, this thread is a little bit of an eco chamber for older people to state their perspectives. This information is very valuable, but it obviously doesn't tell the full story. Maybe I'm wrong and there are some more younger people in this thread who just don't feel comfortable sharing. That's obviously more than fine.

Where I feel we need to be careful is generalizations regarding age demographics. Every generation makes fun of each other to an extent, but some of the replies on here highlight why younger people stay away from clubs full of older members. As several people have said, kindly mentoring younger people is an amazing way to help them experience this hobby and life in general.

I've been lucky to be surrounded by quite a few older adults in the astronomy club who support us younger members during observing sessions. They don't assume anything about my education levels, work experience, or general interests. I'm also very respectful of them. I enjoy hearing about their career paths and life in general. I don't assume anything about their life experience.

The most important thing we can all do regardless of age is not to place people into categories. Lots of people in my generation do this too, but it's not right either way.

It's obvious that most people don't have much knowledge about scientific topics. I've met plenty of people ranging from 15-50 who have no idea about the galaxy. When I place things into context about our size and the true scale of everything, there is one common reply regardless of age: Wow! People generally don't know this stuff, but astronomy has a way to capture them even if just for a moment.

This information won't help them buy a house, pay their bills, or solve their problems in life, but it's a true privilege to help people understand their home better. It seems to bring out the inner child in everyone.

Edited by Alex Swartzinski, 12 September 2023 - 05:50 PM.

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#106 lwillinger

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 08:29 PM

From my experience as a "young" person, I think that there is a lack of younger people in this hobby for a few reasons. First: smartphones. By the time kids in the US are 11, 67% have smartphones, and 78% have tablet computers (these stats are from a Pew poll in July 2020). Why spend the time and effort lugging a telescope outside and star-hop to faint and hard-to-see gray blobs when you can look at Hubble or JWST images that are far better than what you will ever see? Second: time. Younger people have school, and/or work, as well as a bedtime (if they are young enough to still live with their parents) that does not allow for a longer session outside. Third: light pollution. Being in an area with a lot of light pollution is a likely turn-off for younger people who are interested in astronomy.

 

 

These are just my thoughts and experiences.

 


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#107 Cpk133

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 09:16 PM

It

 

From my experience as a "young" person, I think that there is a lack of younger people in this hobby for a few reasons. First: smartphones. By the time kids in the US are 11, 67% have smartphones, and 78% have tablet computers (these stats are from a Pew poll in July 2020). Why spend the time and effort lugging a telescope outside and star-hop to faint and hard-to-see gray blobs when you can look at Hubble or JWST images that are far better than what you will ever see? Second: time. Younger people have school, and/or work, as well as a bedtime (if they are young enough to still live with their parents) that does not allow for a longer session outside. Third: light pollution. Being in an area with a lot of light pollution is a likely turn-off for younger people who are interested in astronomy.

 

 

These are just my thoughts and experiences.

Its a valid point.  I grew up watching Jack Horkheimer the star hustler and the photos of astronomical objects were rather poor.  I was insanely curious partly due to the fact that, nothing compared to natural stars under a dark sky.  None of us “old heads” have any idea what its like to grow up with the information and entertainment thats currently available at kids fingertips 24/7.  We see everything through old head software.  Maybe the real question is why should we care?  Astronomy is a backwater hobby, there really aren't many people interested beyond a glance, maybe thats also part of the allure. 
 

dad: hey, what would it take to make astronomy cool
son: it’s just something that dorks do


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#108 star acres

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 07:13 AM

I don't actually see astronomy and telescopes as old people hobbies. Old people often have the money and the room for bigger telescopes, but curiosity and building skills are the most important ingredients. Some kids still lack a safe place to put things and mom will throw out everything when they go to college.
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#109 Cpk133

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 08:53 AM

I don't actually see astronomy and telescopes as old people hobbies. Old people often have the money and the room for bigger telescopes, but curiosity and building skills are the most important ingredients. Some kids still lack a safe place to put things and mom will throw out everything when they go to college.

Or in my case, dad moves all his astronomy stuff into the kids bedroom lol.gif.  


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#110 ehanes7612

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 12:24 PM

Growing up in the 70's early 80's ...and despite our school having a planetarium (Va Beach, served as the regional planetarium) ...I did not know any fellow students interested in astronomy..none of my friends and no one at school. I think I was the only one (I had a 6 inch reflector). I only heard of kids that were designated 'genius' by the system that were remotely interested (as they had access to astronomy courses)...and I grew up in a large school system. When I took earth science and later physics, I was the only one interested in astrophysics topics....and I was the only one in my regional science fair that did a project related to astronomy. I think maybe people are looking at the past with rosy glasses..unless you grew up in areas that had strong astronomy outreach ..but from what I have heard , even in places like southern Az in the 70's and 80's ...astronomy was not a successful hobby in the general population..mostly restricted to middle aged men 


Edited by ehanes7612, 13 September 2023 - 12:48 PM.

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#111 ehanes7612

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 12:51 PM

From my experience as a "young" person, I think that there is a lack of younger people in this hobby for a few reasons. First: smartphones. By the time kids in the US are 11, 67% have smartphones, and 78% have tablet computers (these stats are from a Pew poll in July 2020). Why spend the time and effort lugging a telescope outside and star-hop to faint and hard-to-see gray blobs when you can look at Hubble or JWST images that are far better than what you will ever see? Second: time. Younger people have school, and/or work, as well as a bedtime (if they are young enough to still live with their parents) that does not allow for a longer session outside. Third: light pollution. Being in an area with a lot of light pollution is a likely turn-off for younger people who are interested in astronomy.

 

 

These are just my thoughts and experiences.

yep, the gray blob syndrome..I have seen it kill further curiosity so many times...and seeing the moon or planets thru the telescope only goes so far. I have done viewing nights when I studied astrophysics at college...cant tell you how many times people just look so disappointed when they cant see color in the orion nebula


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#112 UnityLover

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 01:44 PM

Well, its time for me to step in again! smile.gif

 

One thing I find annoying is that at clubs, some older people talking with my dad talk a lot about "kIdS tHeSe DaYs".

I have lots of interest in astronomy, so it annoys me, but doesnt scare me away. Others might lose interest instantly after hearing that. My Best friend has a casual interest. He likes seeing star clusters through my scope and wants to watch the geminids with me, but he doesnt want to get a library scope. I know another kid who seems to have an interest in the science of astronomy, but I dont know if he wants to look through a scope. We are middle school aged kids.


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#113 rgk901

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 01:54 PM

funny part... you'll be saying 'kids these days' later on too ;)


but seriously... I sense a different interaction between generations than back when I was a youngin.

but mostly just think when you're young you have lots of friends and little money having to prioritize time effort money accordingly...which is different as you get a bit older you have less friends more money and no time, than later you have more friends again hopefully still money and definitely more time ;)

but the mold doesn't hold true for all..as Unity is my sons age, and enjoys astronomy, my son prefers gaming...
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#114 UnityLover

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 02:12 PM

funny part... you'll be saying 'kids these days' later on too wink.gif


but seriously... I sense a different interaction between generations than back when I was a youngin.

but mostly just think when you're young you have lots of friends and little money having to prioritize time effort money accordingly...which is different as you get a bit older you have less friends more money and no time, than later you have more friends again hopefully still money and definitely more time wink.gif

but the mold doesn't hold true for all..as Unity is my sons age, and enjoys astronomy, my son prefers gaming...

When did I say I didn't like gaming? wink.gif


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#115 ehanes7612

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 02:41 PM

Well, its time for me to step in again! smile.gif

 

One thing I find annoying is that at clubs, some older people talking with my dad talk a lot about "kIdS tHeSe DaYs".

I have lots of interest in astronomy, so it annoys me, but doesnt scare me away. Others might lose interest instantly after hearing that. My Best friend has a casual interest. He likes seeing star clusters through my scope and wants to watch the geminids with me, but he doesnt want to get a library scope. I know another kid who seems to have an interest in the science of astronomy, but I dont know if he wants to look through a scope. We are middle school aged kids.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned ..professional astronomy is highly data driven. This requires significant knowledge in computer programming, which, as we all know, is a sit at your desk occupation. Most professional astronomers I know did have some amateur experience as kids but they were mostly into the academics..basically, they valued analyzing data a lot more than looking thru telescopes. This is even more true today....applications for doctoral programs in astronomy are at an all time high (in may schools applications have quadrupled over the past several years) , attracting many who are proficient in computer programming and math. I have conversed with a few of these doctoral students... never looked thru a telescope...and never have seen the milky way. THEY LOVE DATA!! ..I suspect that being a professional astronomer is more of the romantic lure nowadays..but they don't want to be outside, at night, in the cold.


Edited by ehanes7612, 13 September 2023 - 02:44 PM.

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#116 UnityLover

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 03:27 PM

One thing that hasn't been mentioned ..professional astronomy is highly data driven. This requires significant knowledge in computer programming, which, as we all know, is a sit at your desk occupation. Most professional astronomers I know did have some amateur experience as kids but they were mostly into the academics..basically, they valued analyzing data a lot more than looking thru telescopes. This is even more true today....applications for doctoral programs in astronomy are at an all time high (in may schools applications have quadrupled over the past several years) , attracting many who are proficient in computer programming and math. I have conversed with a few of these doctoral students... never looked thru a telescope...and never have seen the milky way. THEY LOVE DATA!! ..I suspect that being a professional astronomer is more of the romantic lure nowadays..but they don't want to be outside, at night, in the cold.

You're right there!



#117 mountain monk

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 04:06 PM

Well, uh, science has always been driven by data. No surprise there. I know three young women who are working on doctorates, one in wildlife biology, one in genetics and evolutionary biology, and one spent then summer analyzing rock core samples from deep in the southern Atlantic. Are they awash in data? Of course. Do they live normal twenty-something lives? Yes. They are also all frightening athletes--mountain biking, skiing, various paddling sports. Astronomers? No, but so what. There is too much attention here on demographics. Look not to the masses for inspiration, look to individuals. Do so and you will find oodles of fine young minds pursuing scientific endeavors--some do doubt astronomy, both kinds. None of them suffer from a pathological attachment to entertainment.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


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#118 rgk901

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 05:04 PM

When did I say I didn't like gaming? wink.gif



Valheim.... great game, now on sale for $12 on steam..or just demo it...wait for nighttime...

whoever is the designer has to love astronomy as it's gorgeous! stars and nebula every where ;)
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#119 gw_dra

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 05:25 PM

I think a big question is how will the hobby define itself? What "counts" as amateur astronomy? Does it have to be outside in the cold under a dark sky looking at gray blobs through a telescope? Of course not! This forum has plenty of people who prefer astrophotography for example. Now "smart telescopes" are becoming a thing, but I see them constantly disparaged on many of the forums here. I have no doubt in the near future there will be a lot more people here using them. So maybe we should ask what young people prefer, and then see if we can make room for them in the hobby instead of bemoaning the declining interest in some of the traditional ways.

 

Do some people prefer looking at Hubble or JWST images on their smartphone? Wonderful! That's a great way to learn about the universe and enjoy astronomy. In fact one of the coolest astronomy club meetings I've been to was when an astrophysicist came and gave a presentation explaining some of the images from JWST. Are some people more into data analysis, math, and computer programming? Great! It's already been mentioned that that's closer to what professional astronomers are doing these days. So someone who analyzes astronomical data on their computer for fun would count as an amateur astronomer.

 

Saying young people don't like astronomy because they don't want to chase faint fuzzies with a dobsonian is like saying young people don't like music because they're not all listening to rock and roll. Times change, culture changes, hobbies and interests change, but the beauty of astronomy is that the universe is more or less the same today as it was when even the oldest people on this forum were born.

 

Is this hobby going to be narrowly defined to a specific set of traditional activities, or is it going to be a diverse community of people young and old who are united by a shared love of the cosmos?


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#120 Freezout

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Posted 14 September 2023 - 02:21 AM

I think a big question is how will the hobby define itself? What "counts" as amateur astronomy? Does it have to be outside in the cold under a dark sky looking at gray blobs through a telescope? Of course not! This forum has plenty of people who prefer astrophotography for example. Now "smart telescopes" are becoming a thing, but I see them constantly disparaged on many of the forums here. I have no doubt in the near future there will be a lot more people here using them. So maybe we should ask what young people prefer, and then see if we can make room for them in the hobby instead of bemoaning the declining interest in some of the traditional ways.

 

Do some people prefer looking at Hubble or JWST images on their smartphone? Wonderful! That's a great way to learn about the universe and enjoy astronomy. In fact one of the coolest astronomy club meetings I've been to was when an astrophysicist came and gave a presentation explaining some of the images from JWST. Are some people more into data analysis, math, and computer programming? Great! It's already been mentioned that that's closer to what professional astronomers are doing these days. So someone who analyzes astronomical data on their computer for fun would count as an amateur astronomer.

 

Saying young people don't like astronomy because they don't want to chase faint fuzzies with a dobsonian is like saying young people don't like music because they're not all listening to rock and roll. Times change, culture changes, hobbies and interests change, but the beauty of astronomy is that the universe is more or less the same today as it was when even the oldest people on this forum were born.

 

Is this hobby going to be narrowly defined to a specific set of traditional activities, or is it going to be a diverse community of people young and old who are united by a shared love of the cosmos?

You summarize it very well. And I am myself quite contemptuous of go-to, but I face the reality of diversity in love for astronomy.

  
At one point will come virtual reality that will enable people to explore a fully reconstituted Bortle 0 sky. For sure young generations will dive into this. Are we ready for this? Are we going to call that astronomy here on this forum? People studying geology of outer planets never go on the planet for real, but analyze data, and nobody challenge their title of specialists.

 

A little bit out of topic:

Some time might also come (we will all be dead) with environmental awareness, when massive Light Pollution will be a thing of the past. You just need us to develop instead of crushing our civilization into a post-apocalyptic scenario (in which case LP will also be gone).


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#121 CarolinaBanker

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Posted 14 September 2023 - 12:49 PM

I wonder if part of the issue is how bad the skies are. Most Americans have crappy skies, growing up I had minimal interest in astronomy, the skies are B4, 15-20 years ago it might have been B3. That’s an aberration, most kids likely have B7 or worse skies. It’s not very wondrous if there are effectively no constellations. 


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#122 dnrmilspec

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Posted 15 September 2023 - 12:06 AM

Glued to their phones.....

 

Last evening I spoke at the University of Arizona.  I had about 60 students in my event at a medical club.  At the start of the meeting there were some housekeeping chores the club had to do before I spoke. 

 

The club president made very short remarks.  Instead of "death by PowerPoint" and tedious pausing to allow everyone to write down what she was covering, she simply spoke quickly and put QR codes up on the screen.  The students took shots of the QR codes which gave them all of the information they needed to get directions, instructions, surveys, etc.  It was a wonder to watch. 

 

Many of  "us geezers" do not realize the sophistication behind that technology they use all of the time.  Their phone is more than a speaking, texting and direction device.  It is a personal management system.  They are in communication with one-another so completely that I would assert that they are more connected to their friends and acquaintances than we ever were.  Or could have ever imagined we could be. 

 

If I see something I believe is important I can pick up the phone and call a few of my friends.  They can snap chat it and share it with all of their friends instantly. 

 

I am in awe of what they do with technology.  Since I have started following their lead I have been amazed at how connected and informed I have become.  We can attract young people to our clubs in another way as well.  We can invite them to teach us how we can better enjoy our hobby, be better informed, and more connected with each other than ever before.  Maybe it is us who need the education a club can provide.  Not them.


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#123 Freezout

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Posted 15 September 2023 - 02:12 AM

I can agree with your post except the two last words.

New technologies are incredible tools for sure. I won't "spit in the soup", as I am here on CN, an internet forum.

The whole thing in your post dnrmilspec is "something I believe is important". I am young father. I see kids (and older) glued to so much idiot things going on in snapchat (or whatever other media), I wonder about what is "important" for them. Some are literally spending HOURS scrolling down media that are not teaching anything to them. Actually, social media have also a marketing function that can lead to the opposite. Sure, in the past there was already TV with stupid stuff going on. A famous CEO of the biggest French broadcast channel said one day: "we are selling available brain time for Coca-Cola". Same with social media. Actually, their algorithms make them 100x more powerful than TV to give available brain time.

 

I observe a stronger effect from the phones than TV, to glue a kid to useless content. I'm 40 years old and could observe the youth of the 80s until now (I have constant contact with several generations of kids, teenagers, 20 years old people). The marketing is just more powerful with new tech.

 

You maybe have access to a privileged environment where tech is used by clever young people who have basically an interest in sciences and internet is the best source for someone who knows how to sort it. But did you ever watch one of these videos uploaded by amateurs parents who film their instakids playing with toys? Do you know that a kid watching one of these will end up watching hours of it automatically thanks to Youtube functions? It's full lobotomy mode.

 

At least on TV in the past after a while you had another show coming, possibly a science, history or wild life interesting show!

 

I have a kid of 4 years old. Despite my best efforts I cannot control him 24h when he's at the parents in law or socializing at friends houses (I'm not going to lock my kid at home). As a parent it's scary. 

What will these kids care about the quality stuff that is on internet, if they have been lobotomized during early childhood? Maybe the people here that are older do not realize the every day fight it is for careful parents of young kids.  

So we can learn from new generations but we shouldn't give up our role to enable them to sort diamonds from trash. Of course they have to learn from us.


Edited by Freezout, 15 September 2023 - 02:35 AM.

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#124 Freezout

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Posted 15 September 2023 - 02:48 AM

... and I realize I made a little bit an out of topic with my previous post that became one more complain about youth of today and phones etc.

To stay on astronomy: I think we have to target also kids of young age because they are those that need to see that other kind of activities are possible. That's why I proposed to the teacher of my kid's class to make them an astronomy demonstration this winter.

Moon, Saturn and Jupiter should be in perfect position.


Edited by Freezout, 15 September 2023 - 02:49 AM.


#125 CeeKay

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Posted 15 September 2023 - 04:47 AM

I work as a head custodian at a primary school.  Before the pandemic, I offered to bring out my C 9.25 for a Science Fair held from 5 - 7 PM in February 2020 and set it up on the playground of the school.  The principal and his assistant made two announcements that there was a telescope set up and they could view the Moon through it.  For the length of the fair, I had a line of students and their parents waiting to look at the Moon... and the parents were more excited that the kids!  Some of the students even now talk about how Mr. CeeKay brought his telescope out and when will I do it again.

 

I've also shared with the staff of the school, and tow other middle schools some of my planetary AP pics that I've been taking this year (at the "K", 3rd and 6th grade levels they get exposure to the planets) and told they that they can use them as part of their lessons - one of the "K" teacher yesterday told me that her kids were just amazed that I could see Saturn and Jupiter from the playground!

 

I've also sent out emails with links to NASA missions that allow people to "sign up" and have their names on a disk on a rover or spacecraft - one class did it for the Artemis 1 mission (the kids got a kick out of having a boarding pass for the flight).

 

IMO, the schools just don't do a very good job of teaching science any more... and I see it as an opportunity for NASA, Space X or any other entity to get children interested in spaceflight/astronomy.


  • payner, Cpk133, Napp and 2 others like this


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