238 replies to this topic

[CarolinaBanker]

Another issue for attracting new blood to the hobby is the lack of the space race. There’s not that much exciting stuff going on in terms of manned missions, most satellite launches don’t get much news coverage anymore. When the United States was concerned it was losing to the Soviet union, the Defense Education Act poured dollars into science education in primary and secondary schools. I graduated from a private prep school in the late 2000s, while we did have a semester long elective in astronomy that I did take, there was not an observatory, nor were there telescopes available at the school. While STEM is in vogue, much of the time the emphasis is on technology and engineering as opposed to basic sciences. Probably the most productive thing for the hobby would be running for local school boards and making sure that there is quality science education, that not only teaches, but seeks to inspire the next generation of scientists and scholars.

[largefather]

Another issue for attracting new blood to the hobby is the lack of the space race. There’s not that much exciting stuff going on in terms of manned missions, most satellite launches don’t get much news coverage anymore. When the United States was concerned it was losing to the Soviet union, the Defense Education Act poured dollars into science education in primary and secondary schools. I graduated from a private prep school in the late 2000s, while we did have a semester long elective in astronomy that I did take, there was not an observatory, nor were there telescopes available at the school. While STEM is in vogue, much of the time the emphasis is on technology and engineering as opposed to basic sciences. Probably the most productive thing for the hobby would be running for local school boards and making sure that there is quality science education, that not only teaches, but seeks to inspire the next generation of scientists and scholars.

And yet we're in the era of JWST which is generating more knowledge and interest than maybe anything else?

 

there is lots of interest in space. there just may not in interest in visually looking at space from earth. given the light pollution and technological advancements that doesn't seem unreasonable.  

[CarolinaBanker]

And yet we're in the era of JWST which is generating more knowledge and interest than maybe anything else?

 

there is lots of interest in space. there just may not in interest in visually looking at space from earth. given the light pollution and technological advancements that doesn't seem unreasonable.  

More interest? Apollo 11 was broadcast live around the world, JWST isn’t getting that level of coverage. 

[largefather]

More interest? Apollo 11 was broadcast live around the world, JWST isn’t getting that level of coverage. 

do you think that live tv is still valuable now? arguably i would say that live TV is a dying medium, especially so amongst the youth. more importantly, the research coming out of JWST is only just starting and it's already game changing. if you don't think JWST is doing a lot of work in creating the next generations who will dream about space then i'm not sure how to impress that on you appropriately. 

[CarolinaBanker]

do you think that live tv is still valuable now? arguably i would say that live TV is a dying medium, especially so amongst the youth. more importantly, the research coming out of JWST is only just starting and it's already game changing. if you don't think JWST is doing a lot of work in creating the next generations who will dream about space then i'm not sure how to impress that on you appropriately.

I’m not suggesting that TV is the be all and end all, I am suggesting that it isn’t as well covered. I went on r/space and there was no mention of JWST in the top 20 hot post titles, same is true on r/astronomy. I don’t dispute it’s doing important work, I do dispute that the average layman knows much about, particularly in comparison to Apollo 11 or the launch of Sputnik. Generating data is wonderful, but I doubt it inspires the next generation.

[csrlice12]

Remember the Star Trek episode where the guy asked about a TV?

[largefather]

I’m not suggesting that TV is the be all and end all, I am suggesting that it isn’t as well covered. I went on r/space and there was no mention of JWST in the top 20 hot post titles, same is true on r/astronomy. I don’t dispute it’s doing important work, I do dispute that the average layman knows much about, particularly in comparison to Apollo 11 or the launch of Sputnik. Generating data is wonderful, but I doubt it inspires the next generation.

r/space #3 all times is a JWST nasa release with 186K upvotes #11 is also JWST with 116K

 

r/astronomy #2 all time is a lego JWST which is pretty cute. #4 is a tool to compare JWST images to Hubble images. 

 

none of that really proves anything but it's definitely popular amongst those communities just not right this second which is what the hot listing shows. 

 

it and it's discoveries are constantly in the news. to what degree the layman of today would connect to it versus the moon landing, i would make the point that most of the people watching the moon landing were likely doing so from the perspective of beating the reds and not humanities achievements in space. However be that as it may, the news media and internet coverage of JWST is large. if you don't want to believe that then i likely can't do anything about that. 

[Cpk133]

In what year was the average astronomy club established? 

[John Fitzgerald]

In what year was the average astronomy club established? 

I don't know exactly, but I believe most astronomy clubs are at least 40 years old.  A few are likely nearing 100.

[CarolinaBanker]

In what year was the average astronomy club established? 

Probably most in the 25 years after the Second World War, at least in America. There was an absolute explosion of social capital, clubs included, during that time. Astronomy benefited from the growth of a large, educated middle class.

[Cpk133]

Maybe its time for some new “clubs” if there’s something unappealing with the old.  There was nobody there to hand hold or cajole anyone into forming all these clubs in the first place.  

[justfred]

C'mon folks - I heard this same "younger generation" stuff when I was part of the younger generation in the 60's and 70's. The cultural pendulum will always be swinging and if you don't like the generational weather now just wait a short while and it will change.

 

Clubs have changed: Zoom, Facebook, and all these wonderful forums keeping us connected more than ever. The equipment today is incredible and there's a growing awareness and fight against light pollution.

 

We still fight advertising. We are brought up believing you can't be happy unless you spend a lot of money. Someone getting interested in the hobby still thinks you must spend $$$ to participate. I'd like to see more focus on the joy of a minimalist approach. A plain vanilla 6" dob, a starmap,  red penlight, and a set of plossls make a pretty good kit. (But I do take my Questar out every now and again.  ) 

 

There will always be people who like to look at the stars.

 

 

Fred

 

[CarolinaBanker]

Another thing, a lot of clubs have sparse beginner offerings. When someone is completely green an astronomy equipment 101 lecture is helpful, so are observing techniques and a seasonal skies lecture. Midweek is tough for many young people, for kids and teens, their parents have to bring them after work, if young adults there are college and work to consider, the same is true for middle aged folks. 
 

Dark sites may be tough for young people to get to, so offering downtown lunar and planetary outreach might help. Record the lectures and post to Facebook/YouTube, post photos and clips to instagram. 
 

It might also make sense to have bino observing, maybe a BYOB (Bring your own binoculars) session, perhaps pair it with a build your own planisphere? It’s basically how do you build a funnel, going from social media engagement to coming to lectures/events to becoming an amateur astronomer.

[Phil Cowell]

Agree there will still be folks who want to look at the sky and connectivity for clubs and their members is also a prerequisite.
I think the minimalist approach is what’s going to decline, pitching it to new members as a must do isn’t a winning strategy to bring in and retain new members. It’s not working now and thats not going to change. Showing new members the smartphone apps that can control a goto scope is more likely to resonate. Dobs like the Celestron systems with the smartphone app are probably going to be the entry level scopes. 
 

C'mon folks - I heard this same "younger generation" stuff when I was part of the younger generation in the 60's and 70's. The cultural pendulum will always be swinging and if you don't like the generational weather now just wait a short while and it will change.

 

Clubs have changed: Zoom, Facebook, and all these wonderful forums keeping us connected more than ever. The equipment today is incredible and there's a growing awareness and fight against light pollution.

 

We still fight advertising. We are brought up believing you can't be happy unless you spend a lot of money. Someone getting interested in the hobby still thinks you must spend $$$ to participate. I'd like to see more focus on the joy of a minimalist approach. A plain vanilla 6" dob, a starmap,  red penlight, and a set of plossls make a pretty good kit. (But I do take my Questar out every now and again.  ) 

 

There will always be people who like to look at the stars.

 

 

Fred

[Phil Cowell]

If an astronomy equipment 101 is offered it should include goto, push to and fully integrated systems like the Dwarf 2 and similar systems.

 

Another thing, a lot of clubs have sparse beginner offerings. When someone is completely green an astronomy equipment 101 lecture is helpful, so are observing techniques and a seasonal skies lecture. Midweek is tough for many young people, for kids and teens, their parents have to bring them after work, if young adults there are college and work to consider, the same is true for middle aged folks. 
 

Dark sites may be tough for young people to get to, so offering downtown lunar and planetary outreach might help. Record the lectures and post to Facebook/YouTube, post photos and clips to instagram. 
 

It might also make sense to have bino observing, maybe a BYOB (Bring your own binoculars) session, perhaps pair it with a build your own planisphere? It’s basically how do you build a funnel, going from social media engagement to coming to lectures/events to becoming an amateur astronomer.

[CarolinaBanker]

If an astronomy equipment 101 is offered it should include goto, push to and fully integrated systems like the Dwarf 2 and similar systems.

GoTo sure it along with StarSense are pretty common, Dwarf and SeeStar probably aren’t common enough yet to merit more than perhaps a few moments. Helping give a broad grounding and then a few model setups at varying price points e.g. if you’ve got $100/$300/$500/$1,000 and just importantly how to avoid hobby killers.

[justfred]

Phil I agree the minimalist approach should not be a requirement - I'd like to see it as one of the options. We all know folks that would have stayed away if not for go-to or push-to. I just don't want to see the price point be the issue. You're right also that I mostly hear servos humming away at every event. Not a lot of the rustle of Deep Map 600s. 

 

Let's make sure there's always room for the simpler approach. :-)

 

Carolina, our club does the 101 as new membership grows. And it includes the goto and pushto options. You're right - these are huge helps. Most folks can master the Meade, Celestron, Orion,

and Ioptron systems without too much trouble - Genesis and Argo Navis set up options take a few nights with hands on the equipment. Lotta options. :-)

 

I love it all but I've got a soft spot for the simple life.

 

 

Fred

[triskelion]

This is an interesting question. As a youngish (29) person who got into the hobby at 17 I can only speak of my own experience. I think that many young people are coming to the hobby, but the majority (I'd guess 80%+) for imaging.

 

I personally don't think cost is as prohibitive of a factor as it is made out to be. I started by getting getting a cheap dobsonian for Christmas. When I wanted to get into imaging as a poor grad student I scoured Ebay/craigslist until I was very slowly able to create a setup. If people really want to get into the hobby they will find a way. As an example, it is popular for many "young people" to build gaming computers for several thousands of dollars.

 

I know one issue I encountered early was having false expectations. I grew up seeing Hubble images in classrooms so even when I found "showpiece" objects like M42 and M31 for the first time I have to admit they were underwhelming. Only once I became more educated about what exactly I was seeing did I start having that sense of wonder at the eyepiece. Now I can look at these types of objects for an hour straight with continual excitement. When I was at Okie-Tex Star Party last year there was a gentleman who was giving views through his dobsonian to less experienced astronomers (including my wife) and would always describe what the object was with interesting historical information (e.g. talking about the interesting life of Caroline Herschel when viewing Caroline's Rose). I thought it was a wonderful example of how outreach should be done and I took notes. 

 

Some have mentioned attention/patience as being a challenge and while I think that is true to an extent it does not tell the whole story. There will always be motivated individuals, but to motivate them towards something you have to show them why it is worth pursuing to begin with. There are all sorts of skills that still attract young people that require those same virtues: being a proficient musician, a great chess player, etc. I just think visual astronomy is becoming a tougher and tougher sell. It is not that unreasonable to believe my generation could possibly be one of the last to be able to see the milky way or dsos at all. I know for me it was difficult to not focus on what I can't see, as opposed to what I'm seeing, while trying to observe from a bortle 8/9 home. Only to know it is only going to get worse. That is what made me completely drop visual for imaging for several years. Only once I moved to Texas with a local club and a dark sky site did I start taking visual seriously and I try to do visual as often as I can now, but without access to such a site I probably would have given up. I think this is a huge reason why imaging is so much more popular (though there are other reasons as well). 

 

I don't want to overgeneralize, but I think imagers (which many young people exclusively are) just do not desire club membership the same way visual astronomers do. And the community they generally do want can be had online (though things like Astrobin). If an imaging rig is working there really isn't anything to do besides go to bed once its going. In my opinion, in-person community just makes more sense with visual (messier marathons, observing challenges, etc.) than imaging does. 

[fghsocwk]

I'm honored to join so many thoughtful rejoinders to the original post.*  I have a few "practices" to share.

 

A.  Actively seeking converts

1.  I buy large lots of used binoculars from a certain on-line vendor.  Useful bins = 50% or more.   I keep several that are light weight in the car and my bookbag.  Beach, park, sports events, outside music, they are handy.

2.  Look for prospects.  Young children?  Start with their adult minders: "Would your child like to see (bird, third baseman, squirrel, boat on ocean) up close?"  Older children/adults themselves "Would you like to see "X" up close?"

3.  F/U with "fun talk," instructions on how to focus, no DO NOT look at the sun, BUT the moon is out tonight...

4.  Them: "Huh, that's great about the moon, but I don't have binoculars."

5.  Me: "Well, now you do."  And gift them, then and there.

6. I also, when it seems appropriate, mention when I'll be back at the park or ocean to star-gaze OR that there is a local/regional astro club OR nature museum OR whatever seems a natural follow-on.

 

B. Admitting the views are kinda ok but please do not expect Webb gobsmacking ("Hey, this is BETTER than what Galileo had!")

1. Share this Youtube vid: https://www.youtube....6NIBBldy8U&t=6s

2. Share pics on my cell phone of my graphite on paper drawings of lunar craters, Jup, 2017 solar eclipse.

 

I live just outside the urban core of Raleigh NC and I can tell you, not only is our skyglow bad, but our weather is a real impediment to running outside with a child (or adult) only to say "Oops, the seeing is so much better a 3am."  So I start with what can produce the maximum impression with the least amount of fuss. 

[Phil Cowell]

Fred

  My point on the minimalist approach with a dob and charts, is its the primary pitch to new folks at many clubs and it’s not working. Not difficult to see from most clubs member numbers. It’s the old diehards that keep pitching it as the only method that is a loss leader in most cases. The dob and charts are probably better suited to folks who have prior experience, than for a new user. Agree it should be part of what’s out there but so should more modern methods. As for the Dwarf2 and other integrated systems they will probably be on many science and technology savvy folks 2024 Christmas wish lists. There are probably going to be folks looking to learn their devices capabilities looking for a welcoming non-judgmental place to find out more. It’s always better to be ahead of the curve than behind it when looking to capture folks interests. 
 

cheers

Phil

Phil I agree the minimalist approach should not be a requirement - I'd like to see it as one of the options. We all know folks that would have stayed away if not for go-to or push-to. I just don't want to see the price point be the issue. You're right also that I mostly hear servos humming away at every event. Not a lot of the rustle of Deep Map 600s. 

 

Let's make sure there's always room for the simpler approach. :-)

 

Carolina, our club does the 101 as new membership grows. And it includes the goto and pushto options. You're right - these are huge helps. Most folks can master the Meade, Celestron, Orion,

and Ioptron systems without too much trouble - Genesis and Argo Navis set up options take a few nights with hands on the equipment. Lotta options. :-)

 

I love it all but I've got a soft spot for the simple life.

 

 

Fred

[rrpallechio]

FWIW ... my observing buddies are my 71 year old wife and 10 year old grandson. He loves it, though sometimes all he wants to do is play with the red flashlight, and that's okay.

 

I always set up in my backyard, and because of the trees, I have to wait awhile before Saturn becomes visible. I'm thinking that I might set up at the bottom of my driveway, where Saturn will be visible maybe an hour earlier, and see if the neighbors want to take a peak.

[Freezout]

Fred

  My point on the minimalist approach with a dob and charts, is its the primary pitch to new folks at many clubs and it’s not working. Not difficult to see from most clubs member numbers. It’s the old diehards that keep pitching it as the only method that is a loss leader in most cases. The dob and charts are probably better suited to folks who have prior experience, than for a new user. Agree it should be part of what’s out there but so should more modern methods. As for the Dwarf2 and other integrated systems they will probably be on many science and technology savvy folks 2024 Christmas wish lists. There are probably going to be folks looking to learn their devices capabilities looking for a welcoming non-judgmental place to find out more. It’s always better to be ahead of the curve than behind it when looking to capture folks interests. 
 

cheers

Phil

I try to look at it neutral, I'm myself not a fan of go-to and cannot understand how someone wouldn't like to hunt. But it's my own taste, and I respect that someone wouldn't want to lose time, or simply has a different sky than mine and prefers EAA. Who knows what I will do if I end up in a Bortle 9 zone one day.

 

This being said, with Go-To and electronic systems remains the price issue. They are expensive! If it is shown as people like a pre-requisite it might stop the youth that has less disposable income. My first telescope was a 300 euros one, big investment when I was student. I was finding Go-To cool in that time, but had no money for one. And I'm very happy I took one rather than nothing.

I think astronomers making outreach should have flyers with "ready to buy" setups to give away to interested people... Different budgets, Got-To, manual, binoculars... Carefully selected to avoid hobby killers. Hunting for what equipment to buy might be funny for some people, but repulsive to others. 

[Freezout]

(...)

 It is not that unreasonable to believe my generation could possibly be one of the last to be able to see the milky way or dsos at all. I know for me it was difficult to not focus on what I can't see, as opposed to what I'm seeing, while trying to observe from a bortle 8/9 home. Only to know it is only going to get worse. That is what made me completely drop visual for imaging for several years. Only once I moved to Texas with a local club and a dark sky site did I start taking visual seriously and I try to do visual as often as I can now, but without access to such a site I probably would have given up. I think this is a huge reason why imaging is so much more popular (though there are other reasons as well). 

(...)

Don't be so pessimistic. On the long term, probably several generations, or less, light pollution will be acknowledged like an issue and will improve. Regardless of what one can think about these ideologies & trends, who would have foresee 50 years ago that animal welfare and veganism, anti-diesel fuel policies etc would be serious things? It won't be for us but in any case LP will improve on the long term.

Either civilization goes on developing and it ends up addressed seriously as environmental problem.

Either civilization goes down and there is no more resources for useless light. 

[Phil Cowell]

Have you priced up a high end gaming PC? How much a decent Smartphone costs? The gaming PC is several thousand dollars and not that rare in many houses. The Dwarf 2 and SeeStar are way less dollar wise. The same with Smartphones most young folks own then.
With LP in many cities, is difficult to hunt what isn’t visible.

 

I try to look at it neutral, I'm myself not a fan of go-to and cannot understand how someone wouldn't like to hunt. But it's my own taste, and I respect that someone wouldn't want to lose time, or simply has a different sky than mine and prefers EAA. Who knows what I will do if I end up in a Bortle 9 zone one day.

 

This being said, with Go-To and electronic systems remains the price issue. They are expensive! If it is shown as people like a pre-requisite it might stop the youth that has less disposable income. My first telescope was a 300 euros one, big investment when I was student. I was finding Go-To cool in that time, but had no money for one. And I'm very happy I took one rather than nothing.

I think astronomers making outreach should have flyers with "ready to buy" setups to give away to interested people... Different budgets, Got-To, manual, binoculars... Carefully selected to avoid hobby killers. Hunting for what equipment to buy might be funny for some people, but repulsive to others. 

[Phil Cowell]

Or more likely white high intensity LED lights replace all of the older ones.

 

 

Either civilization goes on developing and it ends up addressed seriously as environmental problem.

Either civilization goes down and there is no more resources for useless light.