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Attracting young people to our hobby

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#176 kasprowy

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 09:58 AM

AP and EAA bluntly aren’t my hobby. In fact I think AP is a completely different hobby that shares some characteristics with visual astronomy, but is so different as to make them at best, cousins.. 

I've said in the past that AP is the hobby of photography with a concentration on the sky, as other photographers concentrate on landscapes, wildlife, sporting events, etc.


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#177 TopherTheME

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 11:04 AM

I've said in the past that AP is the hobby of photography with a concentration on the sky, as other photographers concentrate on landscapes, wildlife, sporting events, etc.

 

So you're saying all those "astronomers" running Hubble and JWST are just advanced photographers then? 

 

I might be considered young by this forums standards at the age of 37 and got into the hobby in my mid 20s. I don't think theres a lack of young people in the hobby, you just don't see them at clubs. Instead, you see them on youtube and Instagram. Many younger people get turned off by their local astro clubs as they can be very clicky or shun astrophotography like the posts above (i.e. they're ran by cranky old men). I've joined and left a couple clubs in my area as I just got nothing out of them. I sadly left the only one I liked because I moved away. 


Edited by TopherTheME, 21 September 2023 - 08:19 PM.

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#178 largefather

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 11:18 AM

So you're saying all those "astronomers" running Hubble and JWST are just advanced photographers then? 

nah, they don't generally care about the pictures so much as the data. when there is a pretty picture, bonus that's good PR. however they likely get just as excited (or more) about the spectroscopy from distant stars because that's how you find things like exoplanets. 


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#179 CarolinaBanker

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 11:20 AM

So you're saying all those "astronomers" running Hubble and JWST are just advanced photographers then?

I might be considered young by this forums standards at the age of 37 and got into the hobby in my mid 20s. I don't think theres a lack of young people in the hobby, you just don't see them at clubs. Instead, you see them on youtube and Instagram. Many younger people get turned off by their local astro clubs as they can be very clicky or shun astrophotography like the posts above (i.e. they're ran by cranky I'd men). I've joined and left a couple clubs in my area as I just got nothing out of them. I sadly left the only one I liked because I moved away.


I think we are all saying that they’re incredibly different from visual astronomy. The professional astronomers use vastly different equipment and techniques with a different end goal, namely the collection of data.

Clubs have been visually focused since they began, if you find that off putting start an astrophotography club.
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#180 kasprowy

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 12:08 PM

So you're saying all those "astronomers" running Hubble and JWST are just advanced photographers then? 

 

I might be considered young by this forums standards at the age of 37 and got into the hobby in my mid 20s. I don't think theres a lack of young people in the hobby, you just don't see them at clubs. Instead, you see them on youtube and Instagram. Many younger people get turned off by their local astro clubs as they can be very clicky or shun astrophotography like the posts above (i.e. they're ran by cranky I'd men). I've joined and left a couple clubs in my area as I just got nothing out of them. I sadly left the only one I liked because I moved away. 

I would surmise that 90% of club members do AP, so I'm not sure what your point is. As for the Hubble / JWST astronomers, the "photos" are at the bottom of their lists. That's for public consumption. They're into data. If you want to photograph the sky, that's fine. I don't understand why the AP crowd is so easily riled up over this.

 

"or shun astrophotography like the posts above (i.e. they're ran by cranky I'd men)"

 

I merely stated a fact, that you're photographing the sky, and you reply with the above. You, or I, are the cranky one?


Edited by kasprowy, 21 September 2023 - 12:22 PM.

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#181 rgk901

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 12:13 PM

off topic a bit..but anyone can download hubble/jwst data and process to ones liking! cause you know, we all paid for it! :)
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#182 Phil Cowell

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 03:23 PM

Using a pico projector to project the moon or planets onto paper lets young ones draw around them with crayons. About as interactive as it gets for the little ones and they get to take home their artwork.

Walking on the moons terminator if the lower section of the moon is displayed keeps their shadow behind them for the best effect.

By using a pico projector the scope tracks but the projector is on a tripod away from the scope and doesn’t move.

Use the gunk that holds posters on the wall to secure the paper to a board while the drawing takes place. Easy to remove and they have a reminder of their Astronomical adventure. For the questions on distance and other details the smartphone talks to them when you explain how to phrase it. Another plus for their learning and asking questions.

For that you need a minor gear head with patience not a dinosaur.

 

I know for a fact that young people are buying scopes for visual.  I have seen many of them do it.  And they show up at our star parties to learn how to use them.

 

Last Saturday I did a star party sponsored by a nonprofit and open to the public.  It required a moderate drive of around 40 minutes from Tucson and attracted probably 100 people.  (Just a guess.)  There were 5 doctors, a truck driver, and a school teacher that I know of and the group was ethnically and racially diverse from all appearances.  There were only two people even close to my age.  We had four scopes.  Two operated by a husband and wife in their 30's.  Two operated by oldsters including myself.  There was a family who brought their 130mm reflector to learn how to use it.   There was one 6" scope using a NVD of some kind.  One 20" Dob and I brought the 6" refractor.  I think the other one was an 8" Dob.

 

I gave some pointers to the family who brought their scope.  I showed them how to balance it, roughly polar align it, and generally cleaned it up for them.  I did not compare it to the other scopes but rather showed them how "much" they could see with it and praised them for their choice.  I think they went away happy with their small scope, aware of its strengths and capabilities and motivated to use it.  (We all would be wise to remember when, "back in the day", we thought a 5" scope was a lot.  It still is actually. The views from their 5" reflector were more similar to my 6" refractor than they were different and I pointed that out to them.) 

 

So this "sample of one" shows that young people like visual.  It shows that they are willing to drive an hour to look through a telescope and that they are not joined at the hip with astrophotographers.  I find this to be typical of public outreach star parties. 

 

I would add this though.  The very key to the success of these events is in the people presenting.  They MUST not be gearheads who want to show off their toys.  They must be prepared with interesting things to say about the objects they are showing.  Nothing more off putting that getting "I don't know" as the answer to how far away Saturn is.  They can't be fussy about people touching (including focusing) their telescopes.  They have to be into engaging the children who attend and OK with them looking through and touching the scope.  And they have to be able to maintain their enthusiasm for a couple of hours so that everyone has a quality experience.  And finally they need to tell people you do not have to invest a thousand dollars to begin to enjoy telescope visual astronomy. 

 

Sadly, that last part is infinitely harder to get than some geezer with a ginormous telescope who spends the night telling people (especially children) not to touch.

 

One little boy who showed up before dark watched me setting up.  I could see he was just seriously excited.  He said to me, "I am so excited I can't wait".  So I paused for a moment, swung the big refractor down to a house on a hill many miles distant and let him get a peek.  He was sold on the spot and spent the first hour after nightfall going from scope to scope and looking for as long as he could.  Tell me he didn't have a quality experience.  And a young amateur astronomer was born.



#183 Phil Cowell

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 03:25 PM

Well you wouldn’t be in the Astrolabe group at that point.

 

It ends up being a battle visual/AP here... 

 

Phil when you write in your signature:

"Non-visual astronomy only. Definitely not part of the old Naked and Afraid Astrolabe edition of Astronomy." 

 

I don't like go-to. But I find NV attractive. In what box does that put me?



#184 Phil Cowell

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 03:30 PM

Spectroscopy is pretty easy for an amateur astronomer to do also. I use this and great fun. https://www.rspec-astro.com
 

nah, they don't generally care about the pictures so much as the data. when there is a pretty picture, bonus that's good PR. however they likely get just as excited (or more) about the spectroscopy from distant stars because that's how you find things like exoplanets. 


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#185 Phil Cowell

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 03:46 PM

Have you ever been to an astronomy club? Doesn’t sound like it. In most typical clubs the star parties have a mix of visual, EAA, AP and some NV. Presentations in the club meeting room/site are on many aspects of astronomy not just visual. Quite often recent space missions (ever Hubble and JWST), the science of astronomy, cosmology, history, the range of discussion can be huge. Maybe you’d find that off putting and need to start a pure visual club. I remember back in the old film days discussions on hypering film for imaging and manual guiding. 
 

I think we are all saying that they’re incredibly different from visual astronomy. The professional astronomers use vastly different equipment and techniques with a different end goal, namely the collection of data.

Clubs have been visually focused since they began, if you find that off putting start an astrophotography club.


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#186 CarolinaBanker

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 04:33 PM

Just was at the dark sky site this weekend, it was purely visual.

Have you ever been to an astronomy club? Doesn’t sound like it. In most typical clubs the star parties have a mix of visual, EAA, AP and some NV. Presentations in the club meeting room/site are on many aspects of astronomy not just visual. Quite often recent space missions (ever Hubble and JWST), the science of astronomy, cosmology, history, the range of discussion can be huge. Maybe you’d find that off putting and need to start a pure visual club. I remember back in the old film days discussions on hypering film for imaging and manual guiding.


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#187 gw_dra

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 05:02 PM

Let me just say this as a young person: One thing that definitely does NOT attract young people to astronomy is the tendency for these topics to spiral into an ideological argument between astrophotographers and visual astronomers, refractor lovers vs dob lovers, or any number of similar rivalries. The last thing young people want is to watch older people fight about what the best kind of astronomy is.


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#188 rgk901

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 05:06 PM

don't get into mountain biking!!!!

#189 columbidae

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 05:19 PM

don't get into mountain biking!!!!

speaking of hobbies undergoing a technological arms race seeking to price themselves out of the market...


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#190 rgk901

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 05:21 PM

speaking of hobbies undergoing a technological arms race seeking to price themselves out of the market...


OMG it's nuts!

#191 Napp

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 06:16 PM

My two clubs are a mix of visual and photographic with a few members doing both. We’ve been getting the same mix of new members - many young.
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#192 Phil Cowell

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 06:21 PM

I guess comprehension of the post your answering is a problem? Care to name the club?

Weather looks like it was a wash out over the weekend. https://world-weathe...september-2023/
 

 

Post being responded too:

Have you ever been to an astronomy club? Doesn’t sound like it. In most typical clubs the star parties have a mix of visual, EAA, AP and some NV. Presentations in the club meeting room/site are on many aspects of astronomy not just visual. Quite often recent space missions (ever Hubble and JWST), the science of astronomy, cosmology, history, the range of discussion can be huge. Maybe you’d find that off putting and need to start a pure visual club. I remember back in the old film days discussions on hypering film for imaging and manual guiding.

 

Just was at the dark sky site this weekend, it was purely visual.
 


Edited by Phil Cowell, 21 September 2023 - 06:34 PM.


#193 Phil Cowell

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 06:30 PM

Napp,

  Seems to be the norm for most clubs, EAA making more of a presence and NV getting a smattering.

Phil

My two clubs are a mix of visual and photographic with a few members doing both. We’ve been getting the same mix of new members - many young.


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#194 Freezout

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 01:50 AM

I’m very curious to see if Night Vision eyepieces directly adapted to astronomy (like OVNI-M ones) but with a lower price would increase the proportion of visual practitioners (and take market shares from EAA).


Edited by Freezout, 22 September 2023 - 02:43 AM.


#195 Sebastian_Sajaroff

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 05:13 AM

Another issue for attracting new blood to the hobby is the lack of the space race. There’s not that much exciting stuff going on in terms of manned missions, most satellite launches don’t get much news coverage anymore. When the United States was concerned it was losing to the Soviet union, the Defense Education Act poured dollars into science education in primary and secondary schools. I graduated from a private prep school in the late 2000s, while we did have a semester long elective in astronomy that I did take, there was not an observatory, nor were there telescopes available at the school. While STEM is in vogue, much of the time the emphasis is on technology and engineering as opposed to basic sciences. Probably the most productive thing for the hobby would be running for local school boards and making sure that there is quality science education, that not only teaches, but seeks to inspire the next generation of scientists and scholars.

There IS a space race going on, but it's not against the USSR.

 

China is building their own space station.

India just landed their own robotic mission on the Moon.

Japan, European Union sent lots of space missions too.

Even United Arab Emirates sent a spaceship to Mars.


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#196 Phil Cowell

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 06:09 AM

Two great resources for information on space races past and future are Quest Magazine which provides topics with great detail on the history of space flight. They did a review of the old Corona spy missions and had great photographs.
The other is the British Interplanetary Society which provides a selection magazines and covers history, present missions and information on future flights. The BIS provides world wide coverage.

Well worth reading.

 

There IS a space race going on, but it's not against the USSR.

 

China is building their own space station.

India just landed their own robotic mission on the Moon.

Japan, European Union sent lots of space missions too.

Even United Arab Emirates sent a spaceship to Mars.



#197 rgk901

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 07:12 AM

I’m very curious to see if Night Vision eyepieces directly adapted to astronomy (like OVNI-M ones) but with a lower price would increase the proportion of visual practitioners (and take market shares from EAA).

In my opinion, a $500 NV would have similar popularity as the $500 seestar is having now.
I almost got the seestar but waiting on the eventual bigger/ better chip model :)

Edited by rgk901, 22 September 2023 - 07:37 AM.


#198 kasprowy

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 08:32 AM

Just was at the dark sky site this weekend, it was purely visual.
 

And I've been at ones which are 95% AP, so there is evidently a wide spread of Visual, AP, and EAA amongst clubs. The trick is to find the one most aligned to your interests, assuming it is relatively nearby.


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#199 rgk901

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 09:04 AM

as long as everyone has a good time and doesn't make others feel somehow like what they are doing is subpar I wouldn't mind a mix. I can see it being fun to walk around and looking at everyone's stuff before observing in my spot. And I'd bet a few bored imagers who have their act together would probably come by and want peek as well.
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#200 weis14

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 09:51 AM

I think that many people who are old enough that their kids are adults (65+) are underestimating how busy both kids and young parents are these days.  In the 1960s, most U.S. homes had a stay-at-home mother, a father who worked a solid middle class job with fairly predictable hours and adult social activities were often club, church or organization based.  My impression (I wasn't born until the mid-1980s) is that kids went to school and came home with relatively little to do except homework and household chores.  Kids might have been in scouts, 4H or little league, but there were few daily commitments. For some kids, including me, this persisted until the mid or late 1990s.

 

Today's kids are tired.  Kids have much more homework (even as early as in Kindergarten), activities like sports are constant and pressure filled (with year-round involvement and practice multiple nights per week), and good-natured parents (myself included) try to constantly figure out engaging activities or experiences to help them do better in school.  Social pressures and the inability to disconnect from their peers only add additional stress.  

 

My kids (6 and 2)aren't old enough to have a severe time crunch yet, but they will be soon and I see its effects in my nieces and nephews.  They are in tons of activities and, even when their parents try to limit what they are doing, the kids see that their friends are involved and they want to be too.  I hope to pass along my interest in astronomy to some in this youngest generation, but they will never have the massive amounts of free time for it as I did.  Astronomy will also have to compete with a bunch of other things (cooking, personal finance, basic home repair, etc.) that I want them to learn in this increasingly small amount of time.

 

It isn't any better for the parents.  Parents, most of whom both work, are busier than ever schlepping their kids around, working nights and weekends to keep up with a 24/7 work culture and are under intense social pressure to not let their kids "fall behind".  Thus, young parents in their 20s-40s aren't looking for an astronomy club to join and bring their kids to.  I barely get enough time to observe, so I certainly don't have time to drive to a club meeting to hear a talk by another member (who might not even know what they are talking about) on something that I can just as easily learn from CN or Youtube in 20% of the time.  The fact that generally clubs and club members are hopelessly out of touch just adds to the general impression that club participation is not a useful way to spend time.  

 

This is why I think astrophotography systems like SeeStar are really the future for the hobby.  They allow a large amount of engagement with a minimal investment of time.  Some of the people who start out with such a system will probably want to dive in deeper.  Learning it the slow way (like I did), as a 12 year old in the yard with a small newt and only Nightwatch to help is mostly gone.      


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