74 replies to this topic

[SouthWestAstro]

In October of last year I started a thread about building a cabin at a dark sky location.

 

https://www.cloudyni...dark-sky-cabin/

 

This was the most widely read thread I have posted on CN and I (hopefully along with others) learned a lot from the contributions posted there. The end result for me was not a cabin at a dark sky location but rather something simpler, less expensive and also very rewarding - membership at Chiricahua Sky Village (CSV, https://chiricahuaskyvillage.com). CSV is located in southeast Arizona just west of the Chiricahua Mountains, a remote but beautiful and historically significant location with very dark skies.

 

CSV and its sister site Goldendale Sky Village (GSV) in Washington State (https://goldendaleskyvillage.com) were founded by a group of astronomers from WA, OR and AZ. The history and other information about these sites is well-described on their web sites.

 

The villages are not housing developments where astronomers can retire with their equipment. Neither are they prefabricated dream locations for members to just come and plonk down their gear and start observing. In each case some initial development, such as fencing off and gating the land, as well as divisions into lots and observing parks was made. This has been added to as the membership increases. GSV is the older of the two sites as has been somewhat more developed. What happens next is in the hands of the membership.

 

At CSV and GSV members buy shares in an LLC that owns the land (the site) and their shares are associated with specific lots within the site. At CSV the minimum lot area is 5,000 sq. ft. corresponding to one share. Members are free within some constraints to develop their lots as they see fit. In a later post I will describe what I have done with my lot thus far.

 

The challenges for an effort like this start with each member developing their own lot, including the observing set up, some kind of shelter for sleeping and storage. Next the members need to work together to develop the site as a whole.

 

The purpose of this thread is to provide an opportunity for members of CSV and GSV to post about their experiences there, including the challenges, as well as to share thoughts about best practices and future developments. Relevant observing reports and images are also welcome.

 

Equally importantly, input is sought from others in the CN community who have related interests and experiences, or are themselves perhaps interested in joining or even starting something like CSV or GSV.

[ShaulaB]

So basically, free advertisement?

[SouthWestAstro]

So basically, free advertisement?

No. I understand how you might think of it that way but that was really not the intention.

 

This is a novel approach to the problem of getting access to a dark sky site. I would not have posted it were it not that I expected it to generate some interesting, thoughtful and helpful posts.

 

Time will tell. Either there is interest in this topic and the thread thrives or there isn't. Let's see ...

[OlyGeek]

I'm a fairly new member at GSV and will be following with interest. We'll soon have our lot at GSV cleared and filled with gravel. I'm curious how others determined how much of their lot to develop and how much to leave natural.

-Adam

[Bill Weir]

So you folks are due west on the opposite side of the mountain range from Arizona Sky Village? 

 

Is this you or a different group? Different initials.From the crude map on your website it looks to be close by. Looks like an interesting location. Good luck with it.

 

Bill

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[csmythies]

This is not advertising if GSV and CSV are encouraging other amateur astronomers around the country to start their own villages based on the same model. This is a new and exciting way to access dark skies for the serious observer, and its pioneers are trying to share their remarkable success with others.

 

CSV is indeed on the opposite side of the Chiricahua Mountains from Arizona Sky Village. We own 92 acres about a mile from TAAA's CAC in the photo.

[JohnTMN]

 

 We own 92 acres about a mile from TAAA's CAC in the photo.

So it IS really advertising,,,,

Do you have electricity for lighting(LED red of course)(that turn on at dark and off at dawn) and parking space? Are roads built for easy access?

Edited by JohnTMN, 04 September 2023 - 12:26 AM.

[EricSi]

I'm a fairly new member at GSV and will be following with interest. We'll soon have our lot at GSV cleared and filled with gravel. I'm curious how others determined how much of their lot to develop and how much to leave natural.

-Adam

My wife and I are brand new members of GSV. We were just out there today surveying our lot and marking it so we can have it cleared and gravel put in (in an area about 45' x 50'). There's nothing complicated about how we chose that size for the gravel, it just seemed to be a big enough area for parking and maybe putting in a shed and for observing from. We didn't want to go too small, and filling the whole 7500 square feet seemed like overkill.

[Jon Isaacs]

In my mind, the three biggies for a semi-developed site are water, electricity and a septic/sanitary system.  Are there any plans in this direction?

 

Jon 

[Morefield]

In my mind, the three biggies for a semi-developed site are water, electricity and a septic/sanitary system.  Are there any plans in this direction?

 

Jon 

Jon,

 

Maybe this gets at the point of the thread: GSV (and I think CSV) are dark sites where you can go with your equipment and expect a safe place to observe or image with others when you want.  It’s closer to an every month star party than the commercial villages where one might reside.  At least this far at GSV we don’t have or have solid plans for electricity, water or sewer.  There is a vault toilet however.  

 

For most of us at GSV it is a 2-4 hour drive and we go out for several days at a time.  I use a teardrop trailer with solar panels and batteries. Same as going to the Oregon Star party.   The difference is that I have a specific lot I have improved to my preferences and so can choose to stay there or meet others on the shared observing field.  
 

So I think it really is a different concept. 
 

Kevin

[SouthWestAstro]

CSV is a 3+ hour drive from my home in Phoenix, AZ. My first idea of how to use CSV was that I would drive down and stay in a nearby hotel and go to the site for observing. I did that once and was reminded of how tired I can get after a good observing session. I'm not much into camping at all. When I'm not at home I'm staying in hotels or vacation rentals. I ended up doing something that would have been unthinkable earlier in my life; I bought an RV travel trailer.

 

The only modification I've made to my lot is to have concrete pads put in for observing and as an RV patio (see pictures). The work was done by a "local" contractor (based in Sierra Vista, AZ). One pays a premium for having work like that done in a remote location and I only got one bid on the project. But he did a nice job and all-in-all I'm well pleased.

 

The pads were located so as not to disturb much vegetation. They occupy a bit more than 10% of the 5,000 sq. ft. lot area. Mesquite is the dominant plant in that region. With flat terrain come pretty much perpetual breezes and occasionally high winds. The mesquite acts as a natural windbreak.

I joined CSV in early April. I had the concrete pads poured in early May, but for various reasons I could not get down there again until a few weeks ago when I installed a Nexdome telescope pier with assistance of one of my new friends from CSV. The observing pad is 14’x14’ divided by control joints into 7’x7’ areas. My original plan was to put the pier at the center of one of these areas so that I could have more than one set up going (e.g. imaging + visual), or allow others to set up as well. But after learning about small, inexpensive roll-off observatories I decided to put the pier closer to the center of the pad. Then if I decide to build a roll-off later on I will have more room to work with. There’s still room for one to two more setups. One of the pictures shows the pillar in place with a telescope on the observing pad and the RV parked next to the patio in the background.

 

The RV has sufficient tank capacity and power to easily allow a stay of 2-3 days at CSV and probably more as I learn the tricks of RV ownership. For power the RV has two 100Ah LiFePO4 batteries and solar panels on the roof generating 400W. This was influenced by my friends on neighboring lots who have huts with solar power. In addition there are two 30 gallon propane tanks which heat the water, power the refrigerator and the heating system furnace. There is a 2000W inverter which allows me to use the 120V outlets inside the RV. Possibly before next summer I will get a 3-4 kW solar generator so that I can make some use of the A/C and microwave. But I'm guessing that CSV is going to be primarily for Fall, Winter and Spring observing so A/C is not a huge priority. CSV is 3000 ft higher in elevation than Phoenix and typically 10-15 F cooler.

 

So what do I do with the RV when I'm not at CSV ? Fortunately there's an RV Park in Pearce, AZ about 25 minutes from CSV where I can store it and do the tank servicing. The people there are also happy to teach me basic RV stuff.

 

So I've been a member of CSV for 6 months. During that time I have spent most of my efforts on setting up my lot and learning about RV's and what the RV folks call "dry camping". But I have had one evening of simply glorious visual observation with my Televue TV-85 that made the whole thing worthwhile, especially given my knowledge of what's to come.

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[NikhilJoshi]

I was a founding member of GSV and have developed my lot over the years. Although I love the dark skies, I think the most valuable aspect of GSV membership is the community. During new moons there are 20 to 30 members onsite. There's always someone to hang out with, to talk shop, to help you debug a problem or help you improve and develop your skills and your lot. The Saturday evening potluck before dark is always fun and draws the community together. 

 

With GSV astronomy isn't so lonely anymore - it's a monthly star party with friends. My wife appreciates it as she knows there will be other people down there for safety instead of just me at some isolated trailhead with random people driving up in the middle of the night.  I'm a high school math and science teacher and now that I have a safe place to observe and supportive community, I've started bringing my astronomy class to GSV for an annual star party. GSV has been the best accessory I've purchased for my telescope.

 

If you can find some like-minded people and the right plot of land, I think the LLC model that GSV uses is a great way to not only access dark skies, but to grow your own community in this hobby.

 

 

-nik

[auroraTDunn]

If I still lived in Tucson or even Sierra Vista (although only lived there a few months) I'd be 1000% in. How far east of 191 is the site? Looks like you are right on the edge of the Chihuahua, the rattle snake capitol of the world, any major issues at the sight with rattlers? I know my sister will never go back there after a horrendous day at the Chihuahua's when I was in High school and she in Jr High. She's still traumatized to this day, something I make plentiful use of - snicker snicker!

[csmythies]

CSV is about 9 miles east of Hwy 191. I haven’t seen any rattlers there yet, although I’m sure it’s only a matter of time.

[JohnTMN]

The Saturday evening potluck before dark is always fun and draws the community together. 

-nik

and your neighbors Honda Generator running all night doesn't bother you at all?

( I mean honest, he does have to run his apgar gear)
 

[NikhilJoshi]

and your neighbors Honda Generator running all night doesn't bother you at all?

( I mean honest, he does have to run his apgar gear)
 

like most campsites, we have rules regarding noise, dogs, etc. I hear the occasional generator during the day, but really, most people are putting up solar panels and are fully charged by noon. It's actually very quiet. Since it's a small community and everyone knows each other, everyone plays nice together.

 

 

-nik

[DSO Viewer AZ]

I joined CSV early on in its development. At the time I joined I was actually looking into purchasing property for a setup. Being so remote, I was very concerned about vandalism and possibility of something bad happening and being in the middle of nowhere. My focus was on building something that would get me off the desert floor. I had been to many of the dark sky state parks and lakes around Arizona and as a visual only observer that meant that I was on the ground all night. This can be concerning in the desert with spiders, scorpions, snakes and the occasional random person wanting to see what your are doing out there all alone. A constant concern almost everywhere I visited. CSV allowed me to fulfill a dream that included building a deck that got me off the ground and just enjoy the evening without interruption. The biggest unexpected bonus for me however, has been the other members. Everyone has been fantastic, and as mentioned above, the sense of community. It is great to get out there and see others out there as well, enjoying there set up and working on there lots during the day, and sharing there stories of the previous evening or just catching up. Lots of new friends. As for my site, I am now building a small cabin as well. A real shelter is a fantastic addition. I have been tent camping every new moon for years. That can be very cold and very hot depending on the time of year. The main focus for me is to create a location that will allow me to easily observe for years and years into the future. I am planning for later in life. My deck will allow for larger telescopes, and even AP should I ever decide to go that direction. I may eventually add a ramp that goes directly from my cabin to the deck so I can easily wheel larger and larger scopes out there. I find half the fun of Astronomy to dream of better and better set ups. CSV allows that in spades. I feel very fortunate to be a part of the organization and look forward to its future.

[jcj380]

CSV is about 9 miles east of Hwy 191. I haven’t seen any rattlers there yet, although I’m sure it’s only a matter of time.

Side question:  Do rattlesnakes like concrete pads?  I guessing yes b/c pads retain heat?

Edited by jcj380, 05 September 2023 - 10:34 AM.

[csrlice12]

Rattlesnakes are edible.....make them fear you more than you fear them.

[ninelives]

I'm a long ways from retiring, but something like this would be of great interest to me. Might have to look into somewhere closer, even if not as ideal for astronomy, since the wife will want to stay here for friends/family. Maybe somewhere in Utah...

[csmythies]

If you’re interested in starting a sky village like this in Utah, we would be happy to help you any way we can. First and most important requirement: cheap land under the darkest sky possible.

[morvek]

I'm also a member of CSV (joined in Feb 2022) and have a lot adjacent to the author of this thread.  I have also participated in developing the site by doing aerial drone photos, obtaining a shipping container for the site and helping members and perspective members as needed.  The area offers many clear nights (guessing 250+ / year) and the skies are very dark.  I have a 10'x12' mini-cabin (aka, shed) on my lot with a 1.6kW solar system.  Although cell coverage is good (LTE, no 5G yet) in the area I decided to install StarLink for remote access.  I am currently using a portable setup for imaging but am thinking about a remote observatory sometime in the future.

 

Album: CSV Photos

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0 comments

 

My portable imaging setup:

• Sky-Watcher Esprit 100ED
• ZWO ASI2600MC
• ASIair Plus

I also have a ~25 year old Celestron C5 for visual.  Very low weight which makes it easy to transport.  This scope has amazing optics for a SCT.

 

CSV is about 3 miles west of the TAAA Chiricahua Astronomy Complex (about 1 mile south of Hwy 181).  I have not yet seen a rattlesnake but know they are in the area.   My home is about 65 miles west (~1.5 hr drive) so it's fairly easy for me to drive over and spent a fews nights there per month.

[star acres]

It's all beautiful. You don't need a community. Just a yard.

[Jon Isaacs]

Jon,

 

Maybe this gets at the point of the thread: GSV (and I think CSV) are dark sites where you can go with your equipment and expect a safe place to observe or image with others when you want.  It’s closer to an every month star party than the commercial villages where one might reside.  At least this far at GSV we don’t have or have solid plans for electricity, water or sewer.  There is a vault toilet however.  

 

For most of us at GSV it is a 2-4 hour drive and we go out for several days at a time.  I use a teardrop trailer with solar panels and batteries. Same as going to the Oregon Star party.   The difference is that I have a specific lot I have improved to my preferences and so can choose to stay there or meet others on the shared observing field.  
 

So I think it really is a different concept. 
 

Kevin

Kevin:

 

In the initial post, the comparison was made to a cabin.  Something like this has it's pluses and minuses but a cabin will hopefully have some form of power, sanitation and water, whether on the grid or off the grid.  Our place in the high desert is similar to a cabin.  It is nice for longer periods. It's a lot more expensive too. 

 

To me, it seems like the advantages are that it offers the opportunity to observe with others.  Building some sort of limited amenities has advantages as well.  It seems more like a dedicated astronomy campground. 

 

It looks to me like the elevation is probably somewhere between 4000-5000 feet. What is the climate like?  Is it conducive to year around observing?  

 

Jon

[DSO Viewer AZ]

Hey Jon, like any community, it has to start somewhere. CSV is still in the earlier stages, but growing fast. In the beginning there were no roads, no fences, no porta-jon just open range, complete with cattle and horses roaming free. We are now quite established compared to our rustic beginning. We are funded by new members, and as more join, more accommodation's will be added. These accommodations are all voted on by members for the benefit of all.  There are no paid positions in the LLC of CSV or GSV, all volunteer. This means there is no overhead to contend with. At CSV we have completed fencing around the entire property, added a porta jon cleaned weekly, and roads to all lots, most easily accessible by small sedans or RVs. When dealing with the county, we were not considered a campground (as members own there own lots) even though many camp there, or RV park (as each member has there own lots rather than renting a spot) even though many bring there RV.  We fall somewhere between a development and a campground. Therefore we were granted a special use permit with the strong support of the county (nothing like CSV or GSV has been tried in Cochise county so they actually don't have rules that we fall under). The building of your own accommodations does have its limitations, but they are limited to your finances and desires. The vast majority of our members are not located in Arizona at all. But from California, Oregon, Washington, Oklahoma, and various other states. For them, having a "cabin" in the middle of nowhere is not feasible or desired. But our relatively low buy in allows them to fly into Tucson and drive out to access the great Southeastern Arizona skies in a safe location where other like minded individuals share there common interest. They can even keep whatever accommodations they may need securely on site (camping gear or even an RV). Our rules and regs allow freedom to our members to modify and improve there lot as they see fit. If they wanted a "true cabin" with running water, electricity, internet, septic system, and anything else they desire, as long as they meet the counties rules, and do not block the skies of there neighbors, there is no reason they could not have that. But for most, that would be cost prohibitive, and that is not really what CSV is designed for. For most it is a place for comfortable safe stays on new moon weekends year round with 365 day 24/7 access. We did recently purchase property very near by that will have power for charging, and allow for members to join together to make remote observatories. Although this is in the VERY early development. The process has begun. The local RV parks allow our members to store an RV, and dumping for very low cost. Most folks can not afford to own a second property complete with all amenities for the exclusive use of Astronomy. CSV and GSV fits the vacancy in between. Designed by amateur astronomers for amateur astronomers to have a location that fits there desires and needs. Neither location is really designed or used for long term stays. 

 

As for elevation, at CSV we are at 4600 ft (I do not know the elevation of GSV). The climate is more of a high desert then forest. In fact there are only about 7 or 8 "trees" on the whole 70+ acres, and most of those are not more then 12ft tall. This means you can be anywhere on the property and have incredible horizon to horizon views. I view out there year round, with daytime lows in the 40-50s in the winter, and daytime highs in the mid to upper 90s in the summers. The Chiricahua national monument is about a 35-45 min drive away with elevations over 8000 ft and the rangers allow you to set up at the peak, although you cannot camp there, you could observe all evening if you wanted to. This would accommodate those who are looking for the slightly higher elevations nearby. But it gets quite cold up there at night.