40 replies to this topic

[Freezout]

Thanks, I use them also for observing, i never thought to use them like this! There will be light around where I will observe so I think (unfortunately) it won’t be needed. I keep the idea for dark sites outreach

[Freezout]

So it happened yesterday, my first school outreach. The 3 previous sessions had been cancelled due to the bad weather. We had yesterday a sky that was almost free of clouds, cold but calm.

There were 10 kids with 10 parents, plus my own little boy and the teacher. Several ages, I would say from 5 to 9 years old. Installation went all OK, we were in the yard of the school with a very good view over the whole East-South-West sky.

To be in a school gave all the comfort of having power supply for the RA motor, a big table where I could put the equipment at easy reach, and a step stool.

I had to install the mount before Polaris became visible, so it was quite rough but we didn't need to re-align often during viewing the same object. I'm VERY happy I got back an equatorial mount and installed a RA motor for this event, I prefer not to imagine how tedious it would have been with my usual altaz mount.

 

I had not been preparing any small talk but it came naturally during the session, I gave just basic information about what was the target. I know from work that managing expectations is half of the work, so first thing was a big disclaimer "these are not Hubble pictures, NASA didn't gave me 10 billions. What you will see is a tiny Saturn".

Then the part to excite them "however you will see the rings of this giant planet that is 10 times bigger than our planet" and here people start OHHH AHHHH we will see the rings... 

 

I know there are several religions about you can touch or don't touch the telescope, I kept it at don't touch, not by fear of damage but due to vibrations. We're at 140x or 200x with the Mak, and with kids: some poor kids (the youngest ones) didn't manage to see the picture, despite all the best advices on eye placement I could give. The oldest ones had no problem and are the most enthusiast of course.

All the kids behaved properly.

The parents asked to look also and some were clearly into the topic. Kids asked a lot of questions. One of them had a small telescope at home and asked me some advice.

I got the how much does it cost? from a girl and I answered that my telescope was an investment, so quite expensive, but still affordable, and that the most important was that you can get a correct telescope for a couple of hundreds euros, or use binoculars. That had an effect on some people present, they imagine you have to spend way more.

 

After Saturn we looked at the Moon, ideally placed, and Jupiter. 

Dew on the eyepiece was a real problem. People who are not used to eye placement will easily breathe on the eyepiece, it's cold, so we got dew early after the Saturn "round". I have "only" 3 eyepieces and even trying to manage the warmth of the eyepieces (in pocket, always closed when not used, etc), I had to swap them a couple of times. An eyepiece dew heater might be the next "outreach" investment.

 

The official end hour of the evening came and these kids had to go to bed, but some people were motivated to stay so I showed them the Orion nebula, unfortunately quite degraded due to the light pollution at the place. At that level it's more adults with interest in astronomy who enjoyed it. For kids a nice double star with contrast will be on the program the next time...

[astrohamp]

Happy to read all finally went well for you and the group and thanks for the follow up report. 

 

Certainly managing the equipment is a task especially with the observer height differences you were dealing with.

 

I wish I could help with youngling orientation to the eyepiece but I have not found a way myself.  Highlighting the EP with a red flashlight and watching the youngsters face for object projection (if only on bright objects) are the two that come to mind.

 

Next time should be a treat.

[fizicksteacher]

One thing that can be wonderful to wet people's appetite is a couple of pairs of binoculars if you can get them. I also find having  a telescope that people can touch is always a real benefit.  It doesn't have to be a great scope, just something people can "try".  Also I found having a telescope that people are "allowed" to take their cell phone out and take a picture through is a big help with keeping the line moving on the "good" scope. I think the best rule of thumb is if your equipment is so delicate that it can't survive an accidental bump then don't take it to an outreach at an elementary school, I have never had a telescope knocked over or broken, but I have had a few very quick saves.  A picture with the constellations on it describing what and and where you are going to be looking is also super helpful to help folks to get oriented. Many of whom can probably only find the big dipper. Even that little bit is a great start, since you can show them how to beginning star hop using the big dipper as a guide.  Let the teachers help, just make sure they have clear instructions on what you want them to do.  Telling them how to tell the kids stuff about the stars really is a big help as well, as the students naturally look to them anyway and teachers are the most enthusiastic volunteers if they know what you want. A laser pointer to point out a constellation or two and a story about the constellation can also add a lot. Another thing if it lines up with your event is an iss/ hubble fly over.

 

I didn't think I could love the stars more than I did, until I started sharing them with others.

[Freezout]

Well, guess what, this year the astronomy after-school activity won't happen!

 

I had a meeting with the school director to propose potential dates, explain how it works, what was needed for me (almost nothing)... I had these kind of clarifications it the year before with the teacher of my son, but he left the school after summer.

Clearly, the personal interest of the director for astronomy was limited to 0, but the fact is that the activity was a huge success last winter. It is compulsory to have at least one employee of the school to attend with me the evening with the kids and parents.  

 

Well, yesterday after a long time without answer I received a mail from the school director, and "I discussed with the team and it won't be possible to organize it. Thanks for your proposal.".

Which means that none of the 40 teachers/support employees from the school agreed to choose at least one of the 12 dates I proposed, to be available for 2h in the beginning of the evening. The only duty being: opening the door, staying around, show me the table and electric extension cord I need, and close the door.

 

Additionally: "the class of our professor [name] is currently working on the theme "the universe", would you like to come during school time to give a lesson?"  while I had been during our talk explaining that I didn't have real added value for this. I'm amateur astronomer, but no teacher and not more specialized in science that any of their teacher who would make the effort to open a book to prepare his theme.

 

I might try with the scouts group of my son...

[billywjackson]

Bummer.
My guess would be that it is also related to not wanting to pay the staff member for 2 extra hours.

[Freezout]

I guess this is anyway unpaid volunteering for the teacher doing it. It’s what I had understood from the discussion. They have others activities like this outside of normal hours. I am also unpaid for doing it.
If it was a budget thing, I think I would have been told from the beginning.
It’s more about does one of them have interest? Out of 40 people, no…

Edited by Freezout, 29 November 2024 - 01:09 AM.

[PolyWogg]

Given my own volunteer coordination roles, I have some sympathy for the school, and based on the fact that you immediately slammed teachers for not supporting your idea, even more so. I suspect my tone is harsher than I would like in the following, but well, consider it an alternate perspective. I admire your initiative, but your idea of partnership might not be what they're looking for.

 

I'll share some info for comparison. We have an astro club of about 400 members. When we do public outreach events, we frequently have about 25-40 volunteers show up with scopes, and anywhere from 300-1500 members of the public come to look through the scopes. I was the star party coordinator for a couple of years, and we have to have insurance coverage for specific dates AND we were using the parking lot of a partner who lets us turn off the lights -- which means we had to book a series of dates and backup dates for each month between May and October, similar to how you did it, with everything planned out well in advance (I would get the insurance approvals and everything done in March/April).

 

Now, once all that basic work is done, most of my role was the same as the teachers -- be present, an event marshal if you will. But here's the thing...we had primary dates for the Friday before new moon with a backup the next night (Saturday) and additional backups of the Friday/Saturday after new moon. Now, it's weather dependant so we would only do one of those nights BUT I had to commit to being available in advance for FOUR nights. I was also doing it for May, June, July, August, September, and October -- so now I was asking myself/volunteering myself to be present for six nights but I had to say I was available for 24 for the summer, tying up 12 weekends before I even know what's going on in other people's lives in my family. If I asked really dedicated volunteers with scopes to "commit", I would get nobody -- they're not going to commit to nights in advance. They'll try to remain free for the primary dates, and they'll come, but they're not going to put their life on hold for possible multiple dates that are all last-minute weather decisions. Now, in my case, I knew I wouldn't get the same 25-40 volunteers, but I would get around that many. Sometimes it dropped to 20, sometimes it went up to 50. But they would come because they like doing astronomy and if they only had 50 members of the public show up, it was still 50 people. They just wouldn't commit in advance to being there for whichever of the 4 nights that month it happened to be. People have lives, and they can commit to one night, but maybe not the next 3.

 

Not to mention that in your scenario, you're asking teachers to volunteer their time at their place of work, while many of them already volunteer outside of work locations -- churches, organizations, service clubs, etc. And that's even before you bring in the scenario already mentioned that if it is really "important" to do these extra things for work, why are they not being paid OT?

 

In your case, your teachers would also have to commit to multiple POSSIBLE nights, and it would only be 10 kids per night by lottery. Doesn't sound to me like a great investment of time by them. And as you noted, there are other activities going on...interesting that you immediately slammed them for not being interested in what you thought they should do, telling them how they should organize their volunteer time around your idea, yet they're the ones volunteering and likely had > 10 ideas with the ability to cover 4-5 for the year, and the others likely served more people in a night than yours did. Plus they already did yours previously, so why not try some other ideas too? Equally interesting is that they suggested a way in which you COULD do something that would fit into their curriculum and you basically crapped on their idea. 

 

Bottom line...their venue, their volunteers, their rules. If it was me, and I thought they would benefit, I would have said, "That sounds great, I'll bring my scope and we'll pick a day that works for the moon if it's clear". Or did a modicum of internet research to come in as a guest speaker / extra resource. TBH, if I proposed something alternative to a proposal and they said no, I wouldn't waste any more time trying to partner with that person. "Their way or the highway? I'll take the highway."

 

BTW, I missed your earlier report on how last year's went and how some kids didn't see anything. For future, you might try swapping your EP for them. Not everyone's eyes are the same nor configured the same way for shape either. I have a fantastic 17.3mm EP that 80-90% of the people using it love it. Then there are about 10-20% who are like "meh". It doesn't work for their eyes. If I switch over to a 15mm plossl, they're like "WOW!". Different eye relief is a key part of that, and some find it easier to use. I feel like most average age adults adjust; older adults and younger children frequently benefit from an EP switch if the first one isn't working as well for them. In my experience at the scope, the really young benefit heavily from plossls (more like 30% than 10-20%).

 

In the meantime, there are lots of other venues. And you can even do somethign simpler with virtually no lead-up. If what you really want is just to show people the skies, you can do sidewalk astronomy almost anywhere. Lots of stores would be happy to let you setup on a sidewalk in front near a mall outlet or something. We used to do lots of stuff pre-pandemic where 3 members would set their scopes up in front of a bookstore (better than a bar or restaurant) for a few hours at night. Pedestrian traffic would stop, ooh and ahhh, and move on. Not much planning required other than if you are likely to be on someone's property without asking if it's okay. We find bookstores and libraries are nice "knowledge-friendly" partners, although libraries are often not open late enough. The rest of the outreach thread has lots of examples of other venues. Scouts are a popular partner, but again, you'll run into them having to volunteer their time for a range of weather-dependant nights with few backup options.

[dnrmilspec]

I mean no offense but I would say no also.  Several reasons.  You are only serving 10 children.  When looking at a school population, this is nothing.  You are asking a teacher to be there.  You say it is only two hours but, in fact, it would be  the entire evening for a teacher who has worked all day.  You say that they are 5 to 9 years old.  Seriously.  What are you going to teach a 5-7 year old looking through a telescope?  Or a nine year old for that matter.  With luck there may be two kids who will get anything out of this and you were not preparing any teaching material by your own admission.  Then to put the icing on the cake, you are going to show them a blurry image of everything unless their child eyes magically match yours. 

 

This is a vanity project on your part and not well thought out IMO.  The school made the right decision. 

 

The school did not reject you but rather told you what its needs were.  They offered you the opportunity to teach an entire class at the school.  Are you unwilling to prepare a class for them?  I can think of half a dozen topics I could teach that would interest young children.  You could teach them how a telescope works and let them look through it at a terrestrial target.  You could put a solar rig on the scope and show them the sun.  (Very carefully!)

 

Teaching very young kids like this is not easy to do.  You would be well advised to listen to the experts.  Instead of offering them a rigidly defined mini-program, why not ask them what they need.  They, not you, are the experts in elementary education. 

 

Because this is a touchy point with me I have to say this.  There is absolutely no reason to show someone a blurry image.  You do more harm than good.  I am not for one moment buying the 'wiggling' argument at all.  What does it take for a Mak to settle after a bump?  Three seconds?  You could make the case that a five/six year old cannot focus a telescope because they don't know what that means, but that does not support your hands off approach.  What it does is show that you are using the wrong tool for the wrong audience.

 

I honor you for wanting to help educate children.  In this case I am going to recommend that you carefully read Pollywogg's excellent post.

[Freezout]

Hi Polywogg,
I see where you’re coming from but I think I didn’t express myself properly. I proposed 12 dates but without obligation to have the 12 dates covered. To be honest , I would have been already satisfied with one date only.
Several modalities of the outreach proposal were already adapted to the school (hours, attendance) with what was discussed the year before. So it was not a “take my proposal or leave it”. They just needed a guy as motivated as the last teacher.
I just note that out of 40 people, there is not one to find one of these 12 dates OK to have kids doing something special that fits perfectly with a theme that the school chose, for an activity that was huge success last year.
The school itself advertises “stargazing at school” on their website as side activity (It’s supposed to be my activity).
We are very far from your star parties conditions.

The fact that there is no teacher finding relevant to take some time once in a year to make discover something different to kids is for me a shame, and I remain of this opinion. That’s not the idea I have of this profession. I have several teachers amongst my siblings.

The intervention in class looks according to me logical at first sight only. I think that teacher having the theme should be the first to volunteer. Even just one time.
As said, I have no specialized knowledge in astronomy, astrophysics, or more network for guests that the teacher could have with an internet search. Less, in fact. My only competence (as told to the school director) is to use a telescope and share views.

Thanks for your remarks concerning eyepieces. Your ideas about other venues already crossed my mind, but I would have enjoy to repeat last year event. I always enjoy outreach.

[Tangerman]

It's entirely possible that the school director only asked the director for astronomy if he was willing to volunteer. Perhaps the school director didn't want to ask any other teacher to take on such a responsibility, as it may be seen as unfair and not really in their realm. It's not at all clear that none of the 40 teachers were willing. You don't know what the internal discussions were or who they were between. It could be that the school director didn't have much personal interest and was quite willing to shut it down without support and interest from the astronomy director, with zero input from any other teachers.

[Freezout]

Hi Drnmilspec, Please note that I saw your message after answering Polywogg. Maybe you would have write some things in a different way otherwise but I will still answer with some repetitions. I answer in green in your quote, I unfortunately didn't found how to split a quote from the same person.

I mean no offense but I would say no also.  Several reasons.  You are only serving 10 children.  When looking at a school population, this is nothing. 

 

Where is the threshold to start outreach activity? Personally, I'm fine with 10 kids and their parents (minimum 20 people total). The school itself proposed me 10 children as proper public last year. I could have done more. I just follow their choice. You might have missed the whole beginning of the thread: this activity already occurred last year.  

 

You are asking a teacher to be there. 

No, they want to have a teacher there. Which I completely understand because it occurs in school, of course! Should they entrust me with the key of the portal, I would be OK with it. The parents here are serious people. But I would be fine with the school just making advertisement for a mini-activity I would organize via a whatsapp group. Who knows what I can plan in the future. 

 

You say it is only two hours but, in fact, it would be  the entire evening for a teacher who has worked all day.  You say that they are 5 to 9 years old.  Seriously.  What are you going to teach a 5-7 year old looking through a telescope? Or a nine year old for that matter. 

Well, we will have to agree to disagree here. If you think that outreach is only for 9+ years old you might find a lot of people also disagreeing with it in this forum. Plenty of people discover and get the sparkle as kids. I do not have the pretention to light a sparkle in all kids looking through my telescope but then why are we making outreach?

 

With luck there may be two kids who will get anything out of this and you were not preparing any teaching material by your own admission. 

I admit that I just set up a telescope to show the Moon, planets and eventually Andromeda/Orion to kids and their parents, with basic explanations. I am not a teacher and not comfortable for giving a course on that topic to kids. My added value is not there. 

 

Then to put the icing on the cake, you are going to show them a blurry image of everything unless their child eyes magically match yours. 

See my remark below about the same topic

 

This is a vanity project on your part and not well thought out IMO.  The school made the right decision. 

Vanity project sounds quite judgmental, but I don't want to be susceptible. Once again, then it's also a vanity project from the school and the teacher who organized it with me last year, and told me we start again next year. 

 

The school did not reject you but rather told you what its needs were.

As said, I think it was not ridiculous to assume that the school would want the same from last year, given the big success and the fact that they had been adding my activity as "afterschool activities" on their website.

 

They offered you the opportunity to teach an entire class at the school.  Are you unwilling to prepare a class for them?  I can think of half a dozen topics I could teach that would interest young children. 

Yes I am unwilling. You don't know me so you cannot know, but it is not my specialty. As you say below, teaching a class of kids is a job. I am not even a native speaker in the Netherlands. I am 0 specialist of astronomy for theory, or cosmological science (I am a lawyer). An interested teacher can way better than me make a course, or find a speaker. I honestly find that my competence stops at the telescope management & basic outreach level. 

 

You could teach them how a telescope works and let them look through it at a terrestrial target. Sorry to say, but 0 interest for me, and I need to find a minimum of interest in such activity to go volunteering like this, given my life currently. And then imagine, the kids ask me of course (because they are smarter than you may think) "hey sir, why can't we have a look at the Moon with the telescope like you did last year?" "well, because your teacher here and nobody in the school finds it relevant for your theme The Universe".

 

You could put a solar rig on the scope and show them the sun.  (Very carefully!)

I have no solar rig but already thought about that indeed.  To be honest I'm just scared.

 

Teaching very young kids like this is not easy to do.  You would be well advised to listen to the experts.  Instead of offering them a rigidly defined mini-program, why not ask them what they need.  They, not you, are the experts in elementary education. 

 

Because this is a touchy point with me I have to say this.  There is absolutely no reason to show someone a blurry image.  You do more harm than good.  I am not for one moment buying the 'wiggling' argument at all.  What does it take for a Mak to settle after a bump?  Three seconds?  You could make the case that a five/six year old cannot focus a telescope because they don't know what that means, but that does not support your hands off approach.  What it does is show that you are using the wrong tool for the wrong audience.

On this point I agree 100% and the focuser freedom is something I changed since the last time for my outreach policy. I had been meanwhile convinced by several posts from MaroubraBoy and some others.

 

I honor you for wanting to help educate children.  In this case I am going to recommend that you carefully read Pollywogg's excellent post.

 

It's entirely possible that the school director only asked the director for astronomy if he was willing to volunteer. Perhaps the school director didn't want to ask any other teacher to take on such a responsibility, as it may be seen as unfair and not really in their realm. It's not at all clear that none of the 40 teachers were willing. You don't know what the internal discussions were or who they were between. It could be that the school director didn't have much personal interest and was quite willing to shut it down without support and interest from the astronomy director, with zero input from any other teachers.

Hi Tangerman,

There is no director for astronomy in this school. There is not even a science teacher, and it's normal because it's an elementary school (up to around 9, 10 years old kids). All teachers are generalists. As far as I know, the teachers gather with the director who proposes that kind of activities once in a while (it's in these meetings that they probably decide to teach the fantastic Eurovision festival dances to my son...). 

It appears for sure to me that the director herself has 0 interest.

Edited by Freezout, 01 December 2024 - 05:27 PM.

[Napp]

I don't know if this applies to your situation but here is something my two local clubs are dealing with here in the US.  Before the pandemic both clubs conducted outreach often at local schools.  The biggest issue then seemed to be conducting activities after school.  I think teachers had to volunteer to support the events.  However, a lot of schools scheduled sessions and we also conducted solar outreach during school hours. 

 

The pandemic stopped school outreach completely for two years.  Recovery has been quite slow.  Part of this is likely hangover from the pandemic but some from unrelated changes in schools since.  Interestingly the most outreach activity has been with homeschool groups.  Homeschoolers are required to participate in a number of organized activities and astronomy outreach sessions are a great match.  Private school sessions are coming back slowly but public schools have been more of a challenge.  

 

It will be interesting to see how much interest schools show after the holidays.  January and February were the most active in past years because darkness starts much earlier then.  We have so far received more requests for events in January and February than we have seen since before the pandemic.  It's looking better but time will tell.

[Taylormcintosh]

A couple of days ago during a presentation of the school where my kid (soon 5 years old) studies, the managers told us that they were looking for after-school activities coming from parents (dance, music... whatever).

 

You guess what came through my mind immediately.

 

So I proposed to the school an event where the kids could look at the sky with the telescope of the dad (me). For now it's just an idea I launched. I have prepared a letter to the school principal so that I can implement this idea. In order not to waste time writing it, I used Personal statement helper and had more time to draw up the programme of the event.

I have some outreach experience with family, neighbors, friends. I think I have a good idea of what targets works or not, taking also into account that there will be some light around. It will have to be in the winter due to sunset time here, so I will ask to keep flexible dates (useless to come with the telescope with cloud cover).

 

Looking at sky simulations, I selected the middle of November, December or January where the Moon (half), Saturn and Jupiter are high enough in a proper direction. That should ensure the show.

Should the event last longer than expected, some last survivor stay and wanting more, I could eventually show Andromeda Galaxy or something else.

It will be me and my Mak.

 

The checklist I made for now...

- plan visibility of objects, come a couple of days before to check no building blocking the view etc

- prepare answers to the unavoidable questions "how far is the Moon", "how far can you see with the telescope", "how big is Jupiter" etc   

- Put fragile gear in a safe zone

- Bring something so that kids can be at correct height and if possible have something else than the eyepiece to grab

- I usually never use my dew heater due to insulation of my telescope, but due to winter weather, check if it still works  

 

Do you see anything I would miss?

I think your idea was wonderful. it's great when children find something interesting to do.

Edited by Taylormcintosh, 19 December 2024 - 02:27 AM.

[TayM57]

I'm an elementary teacher. I teach Deaf children in 3/4th grade. I can understand the rationale supporting the school principal's response to you. They asked if you were willing to come in to give a lesson to students- this would have been a fantastic opportunity for children to learn in an academic environment, and it gives the teacher a sense of control which I suspect they need before they agree to any outreach activities outside of school hours. It does not matter that you are not a certified teacher- that is not a requirement of guest speakers. I have guest speakers come into our class to give mini-lessons, and it's almost always an effective means of educating children. It's a nice change of pace, and children do like learning from a person about a subject, especially when it's not their regular teacher. Because of my astronomy background, I'm sometimes asked to present in other teacher's classrooms at my work, and I always love doing this. I just got asked this week to come into a class to give a short lesson on the constellations and our celestail sphere. It does not matter that I'm not a professional astronomer but it does matter that I'm Deaf myself, know ASL, and can convey to Deaf children in their natural language what I know about astronomy.

From experience, it does not matter that I'm not a professional astronomer. Children do not ask questions along those lines. What matters is that you are passionate about astronomy, and you clearly love astronomy, children will respond to that. I'm known among students at work for for being the space guy, and that's because I have a love and affinity for space. Children see that, and they respond to that.

With all of this said, I can also understand why teachers might decline to volunteer outside of school hours. It has nothing to do with the fact student attendance was relatively low (ten students). It likely has to do with the fact the teachers who were asked probably did not feel they had a sense of control over the event, and this is where coming in to class to give a lesson might have helped. Also, teaching a classroom full of children all day, day in and out, is both mentally and physically exhausting. I know, because it's my job. Two hours in the evening may not seem like much, but for a teacher, it can be the straw that breaks the camel's back, especially if a student during the day of the event has had a meltdown. Student meltdowns can't be predicted in advance and it might be why teachers would hesitate to commit to a date.

There have been days where a student melts down and makes the entire day difficult. On those days, I come home and don't really talk to my wife or anyone because it's just very difficult on me mentally. Sometimes on those days, if it's clear at night, I'll observe as a means of coping.

Edited by TayM57, 20 December 2024 - 05:18 PM.

[mark379]

I've done outreach via Electronic Assisted Astronomy for youngsters quite often with my club.

It offers a classroom style experience either outside or inside ( if too cold.) The telescope & camera remains outside while the image is broadcast inside if need be.