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Recent trends in EAA comments/discussion solicited

EAA Astrophotography
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#76 BrentKnight

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 11:24 AM

My primary motivation for doing EAA is to see more

 

The only requirement that I totally agree with here on the CN forum is that one needs to be participating while capturing.  That is the limitation that I place on myself.  I'm not going to start a capture and then do something else for a couple hours while it stacks.  If I can't participate for the majority of the time, then I'm not going to do it.  I probably have more patience than some, and so I can participate for a couple hours if I want to.  I do see improvement with these longer sessions (but much beyond that is way too long for me).  I also don't consider some simple post to be beyond the requirement of participation because again, my goal is to see more.  Simple post certainly cannot be considered near real-time though, and that is fine with me.

 

This is what I want to do, and it really does not fit in with the stated rules here on the forum.  It really does not fit in with what I consider AP either (something I don't feel will ever interest me).  For me personally, I don't care.  I understand the rules and I understand why they are in place.  I won't post my results here (if they don't meet the rules), but I will continue to do what I want to do.


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#77 CharLakeAstro

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 12:38 PM

I agree, that's exactly it, and I suspect this is the motivation for all EAA users.

See being the operative word, both during the acquisition of data and after.

 

To me, EAA overcomes a physical limitation due to the human eye being unable to integrate data.

 

 

My primary motivation for doing EAA is to see more


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#78 amitshesh

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 01:29 PM

The guidelines are only about posting images. I hardly ever post images, but not because of the rule.

Downloading the image from my mini PC, then resizing it to fulfill CN's file limits is a barrier for me. Doing so using the phone would be easier, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Most of the times I shut down the mini PC for the teardown and then remember that my images are on there...

Edited by amitshesh, 23 September 2023 - 01:29 PM.

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#79 mgCatskills

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 03:14 PM

The guidelines are only about posting images. I hardly ever post images, but not because of the rule.

Downloading the image from my mini PC, then resizing it to fulfill CN's file limits is a barrier for me. Doing so using the phone would be easier, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Most of the times I shut down the mini PC for the teardown and then remember that my images are on there...

If you're connected to the Internet this might help reduce the barrier... Install GIMP, which is a free open source image processing package.  If you open the saved image .png file from SharpCap in GIMP, you can export it as .jpg at 85% quality.  Then it's smaller than the CN file limit, even full size.  It just takes a minute and the sotware is free. The loss of quality is neglible, especially since CN is going to compress it again anyway.

 

I can do it even while SharpCap is doing its thing...  and if I'm on my 2-screen mac-mini via WRD, I can even continue to monitor SharpCap while I'm doing this.


Edited by mgCatskills, 23 September 2023 - 03:16 PM.

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#80 Ptarmigan

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 04:00 PM

EAA and AP are 2 different things. AP is when one focus on one object for the night(s). EAA is getting many objects in one night.

 

EAA and AP can use OSC, mono, or mono with filter wheels. AP is more on the post processing and making beautiful pictures. EAA is not about post processing. One can make beautiful pictures with EAA. EAA and AP images can be shared with family, relatives, friends, and anyone around the world.

 

I am cool about mono and filter wheels despite not owning a filter wheel. I just got the Apollo-M MAX Pro USB3.0 Mono Camera. However, I plan to use the IMX432 with red filters for faint objects and go deeper.

 

I got into EAA to see more objects.


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#81 mklosterman1

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 07:39 PM

Interesting viewpoint. The observational aspect was about focussing on the experience rather than data collection, not that one can see (observe) more.

 

doesn't sound like it can be easily adapted for real time unless you implement Jocular. I'm sure steveincolo and Martin Meredith can point the way.

 

If you look a couple posts above, the topic is taken a turn for the worse, so I am all for letting this dead horse expire naturally. I had no idea it would solicit such a response, and I am truly sorry for even bringing it up. confused1.gif

 

Bob

I haven't said anything up until now...but truly the experience IS data collection. When doing visual you are collecting data and processing it in real time (with your eyes and brain of course!) I have a filter switch on my dob and when observing visually, I often would switch between OIII and UHC on nebula to try to tease out more detail. How is doing this with a camera different?


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#82 MarMax

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 09:44 PM

You know, I'm having a really strange few days here on CN. As a relatively new member and having only dabbled in EAA for about two years, it seems like something is way out of alignment. The EAA Forum is a bit in disarray and I have no idea what to do about it. 

 

I tried to be helpful in another Forum, using data from my personal experience, and I get blasted and dogpiled on. Just too many know it all's to accept information from a "non-club member". I'll not be going back there again, ever.

 

This Forum has always been my safe haven and it seems to be unraveling. Next to no oversight (can't use the M word or you get fired), not that something new and different is bad. But something needs to change and I have no idea what it is.

 

This topic feels like an us versus them when the enemy is not here. So come on and let's just all get along and have some fun and try not to go too far off the rails.


Edited by MarMax, 23 September 2023 - 09:45 PM.

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#83 scoale

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 09:48 PM

It's been a while since I visited this forum, and this thread caught my attention as I am interested in what's new.  Lots of debate on technological demarcation and cost which, for me, misses the point.  For me, and maybe only me, EAA is about a real-time experience.  And I'm open to any technology that improves that experience.

 

What I want out of EAA is to slew to a target and, in as near real-time as possible, see an image that is substantially better than I would see with straight glass in my light polluted observing site.  And then I want to move to my next target.   Additionally:

 

  • Waiting up to 60 minutes for an image to reach some state of perfection runs counter to the real-time experience I want. 
  • I don't want to spend more time setting-up equipment than observing.
  • I also like the idea of not needing huge/heavy equipment to obtain satisfying views.
  • And I'm not interested in a complicated workflow.
  • Lastly, I do enjoy capturing the images to memorialize, and relive, the night, but have zero interest in post-processing to improve the images.

 

I'll continue checking-in periodically to see whether any new technology/methods are making these goals more achievable.  


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#84 Tfer

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 09:58 PM

You know, I'm having a really strange few days here on CN. As a relatively new member and having only dabbled in EAA for about two years, it seems like something is way out of alignment. The EAA Forum is a bit in disarray and I have no idea what to do about it. 

 

I tried to be helpful in another Forum, using data from my personal experience, and I get blasted and dogpiled on. Just too many know it all's to accept information from a "non-club member". I'll not be going back there again, ever.

 

This Forum has always been my safe haven and it seems to be unraveling. Next to no oversight (can't use the M word or you get fired), not that something new and different is bad. But something needs to change and I have no idea what it is.

 

This topic feels like an us versus them when the enemy is not here. So come on and let's just all get along and have some fun and try not to go too far off the rails.

Agree completely.

 

This sub forum has always been the most helpful, accepting and friendly on Cloudy Nights.

 

It’s starting to drift.  I never thought I’d see the day where a respected contributor, and one of the most active EAAers like Steve would be piled on for frankly, creating incredible images for us to enjoy.

 

He’s not using equipment that is out of the reach of most of us, but the dedication he has to his craft is the difference.  But because his images are so beautiful, he’s being called out as “cheating.”

 

If any member had a question, he’d be the first in line to give great advice or encouragement.

 

If you have envy or think it’s a competition, that’s on you.  Steve certainly doesn’t lord his mastery over anyone.


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#85 jml79

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 11:01 PM

Who is the "enemy" though, is it me, the astrophotographer dabbling in EAA because it's fun and a way to share the cosmos with my kids or poor Steve (I honesty have no idea who that is BTW) who pushes the limit of EAA?

 

I tell you what, the rule is 60 min, no post processing. I have 2 rigs and they aren't always busy with AP so I'm going to play and see what I can get with 2 mono cameras and such. I think the restrictions are more than fair and enjoy the challenge of the perfect 60 minute image. I'm curious what Jocular and NINA+Siril or PI can produce. I might even try some crazy experiments like a super budget rig (Sky Adventurer with SV-105 and SV-501). We want more young people in the hobby, EAA is the ticket. Even if it leads to the evil world of AP.

 

Here's my first EAA image, I have no idea if it's any good by EAA standards. Heart nebula, 30x60s, SharpStar 76EDPH, EQM-35 mount, QHY294 Pro M Bin2/Gain 2600, ZWO Ha 7nm Filter. NINA + SharpCap, cropped in GIMP.

 

Stack_30frames_1800s_WithDisplayStretch.jpg


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#86 Tfer

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 11:08 PM

Your image is great!

As I stated earlier, I’m a planetary imager who EAAs on the side.

You’re an APer who EAAs on the side.

We both have different wives, but the same side-chicks!

The point is, there is no enemy. We all come to this from different backgrounds and experiences.

Yours brings an ability to control under/over sampling and stretching an image as it comes in.

Mine brings an appreciation of sharpening tools and a desire to dig out the faintest details.

Where we ALL come together is with a desire to assist those who might not have our abilities (yet) achieve what their goal is.
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#87 Bob Campbell

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 11:37 PM

Thanks for all of your insightful posts.  

 

Bob


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#88 Bob Campbell

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 11:41 PM

jml79, on 23 Sept 2023 - 9:01 PM, said:

Who is the "enemy" though, is it me, the astrophotographer dabbling in EAA because it's fun and a way to share the cosmos with my kids or poor Steve (I honesty have no idea who that is BTW) who pushes the limit of EAA?

I tell you what, the rule is 60 min, no post processing. I have 2 rigs and they aren't always busy with AP so I'm going to play and see what I can get with 2 mono cameras and such. I think the restrictions are more than fair and enjoy the challenge of the perfect 60 minute image. I'm curious what Jocular and NINA+Siril or PI can produce. I might even try some crazy experiments like a super budget rig (Sky Adventurer with SV-105 and SV-501). We want more young people in the hobby, EAA is the ticket. Even if it leads to the evil world of AP.

Here's my first EAA image, I have no idea if it's any good by EAA standards. Heart nebula, 30x60s, SharpStar 76EDPH, EQM-35 mount, QHY294 Pro M Bin2/Gain 2600, ZWO Ha 7nm Filter. NINA + SharpCap, cropped in GIMP.

Stack_30frames_1800s_WithDisplayStretch.jpg

It's really great! Congrats
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#89 Bob Campbell

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 02:10 AM

You know, I'm having a really strange few days here on CN. As a relatively new member and having only dabbled in EAA for about two years, it seems like something is way out of alignment. The EAA Forum is a bit in disarray and I have no idea what to do about it. 

 

I tried to be helpful in another Forum, using data from my personal experience, and I get blasted and dogpiled on. Just too many know it all's to accept information from a "non-club member". I'll not be going back there again, ever.

 

This Forum has always been my safe haven and it seems to be unraveling. Next to no oversight (can't use the M word or you get fired), not that something new and different is bad. But something needs to change and I have no idea what it is.

 

This topic feels like an us versus them when the enemy is not here. So come on and let's just all get along and have some fun and try not to go too far off the rails.

I take responsibility for creating the disarray in the EAA space. I had no idea that my inquiry would generate such angst.

 

I should take it to heart that it is better to keep one's head low and process concerns offline (and in my head) rather than pose the question to a wider audience. There are unintended consequences I did not anticipate.

 

There is no 'us; and 'them'. Them is the singular 'me' and 'us' is everyone else that I have heard. I have seen not one comment that supported my view. And I hold no animosity to any member that holds a differing opinion.

 

Remember what I said in the original post:

 

"Anyway, comments solicited. Am I full of it, do I have it wrong? Right? Who knows?"

 

the vote is in, and the majority votes I'm FOS. (and I'm not sad).

 

Sorry for disrupting the Force, and may it be with all of you,

 

Bob

 

PS And I do not believe returning to the M-erating style we had previously is the answer.


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#90 Bob Campbell

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 02:27 AM

Agree completely.

 

This sub forum has always been the most helpful, accepting and friendly on Cloudy Nights.

 

It’s starting to drift.  I never thought I’d see the day where a respected contributor, and one of the most active EAAers like Steve would be piled on for frankly, creating incredible images for us to enjoy.

 

He’s not using equipment that is out of the reach of most of us, but the dedication he has to his craft is the difference.  But because his images are so beautiful, he’s being called out as “cheating.”

 

If any member had a question, he’d be the first in line to give great advice or encouragement.

 

If you have envy or think it’s a competition, that’s on you.  Steve certainly doesn’t lord his mastery over anyone.

"like Steve would be piled on for frankly"

 

So I was the only one who 'piled on' as you say. How can you have a pile with one participant?

 

I think the filter wheel use is taking EAA closer to AP, it is my opinion. The most capable and prolific user of this method is Steve. I was told that no one shares my view, moderation confirmed that which the rest of users expressed and ran to Steve's aid.

 

"images are so beautiful, he’s being called out as “cheating.”"

 

wow, I said no such thing, again, I'm taken aback at how my comments could be taken that way, He was pushing the envelope (IMO) of what it meant to do EAA and generate images, and it was assessed that it properly fell within the rules

 

At that point, if you go back and see how I responded to Sean (M-erator) I was fully accepting and thought the issue was settled. That's when the wheels started coming off so to speak.

 

https://www.cloudyni...ted/?p=12959215

 

So Steve was validated, I was scolded as being 'small', and yet I am piling on? Its a really bizarre analysis.

 

To go further, surprisingly, Steve stated he thought I had won (?) and he will no longer post filter wheel results. For the life of me, I have no idea why he concluded that and chose that path.

 

"If you have envy or think it’s a competition, that’s on you."

 

I've never had a hobby that involved interacting with people that didn't have an element of competition. I guess that's my poor choice of hobbies.

 

I am certainly not asking for any sympathy here, I'm just expressing my shock that the opinion of one person (me) can have the impact that it has, and has been interpreted as a massive attack. Its just perplexing. I'm pretty insignificant here but somehow my opinion seems to carry more weight than it should.

 

If there is anyone reading these forums that has a background in psychiatry, I would appreciate some kind of explanation/interpretation of how the expression of this innocuous opinion could have such a disruptive effect.

 

Thanks to all,

 

Bob


Edited by Bob Campbell, 24 September 2023 - 02:50 AM.

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#91 Bob Campbell

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 08:33 AM

It's been a while since I visited this forum, and this thread caught my attention as I am interested in what's new.  Lots of debate on technological demarcation and cost which, for me, misses the point.  For me, and maybe only me, EAA is about a real-time experience.  And I'm open to any technology that improves that experience.

 

What I want out of EAA is to slew to a target and, in as near real-time as possible, see an image that is substantially better than I would see with straight glass in my light polluted observing site.  And then I want to move to my next target.   Additionally:

 

  • Waiting up to 60 minutes for an image to reach some state of perfection runs counter to the real-time experience I want. 
  • I don't want to spend more time setting-up equipment than observing.
  • I also like the idea of not needing huge/heavy equipment to obtain satisfying views.
  • And I'm not interested in a complicated workflow.
  • Lastly, I do enjoy capturing the images to memorialize, and relive, the night, but have zero interest in post-processing to improve the images.

 

I'll continue checking-in periodically to see whether any new technology/methods are making these goals more achievable.  

wow, great post. You expressed perfectly my fundamental philosophy of why EAA is great for my needs and constraints.

 

I actually lost track of that basic truth/need when I started comparing the absolute quality of my results versus others. My bad, and I am in rehab now for that lol.gif.

 

I have a light setup, can be going from put away in garage to observing in about 15 min which includes polar alignment (I just got tired of field rotation so modded for equatorial operation)

 

My workflow is simple; my flats and darks were generated once and I keep the same for long periods so no work there.

 

I plate solve, slew and observe from a very lighted environment and see what I consider amazing things. I save as seen and be on to the next object.

 

My EAA setup is cheap. Biggest investment is the camera, but that is (fingers crossed) a one time purchase. AT80ED (doublet decent glass) Mount (az-gti) cheap, tripod I had, cheap ebay laptop.

 

I did spring for a multiband (not narrow)  filter 1.25 size and just keep it screwed in right above the sensor for all objects. It enables me to capture dark nebulae in a bortle 8 plus streetlight environment, and doesn't kill color too much. In fact it helps with the chromatic aberration of the cheap but capable 80mm ED refractor.   I live capture with sharpcap (13 pounds/yr)

 

Your post helped me realize as I write this response that it is literally impossible for me given the hardware, observing bortle location and the streamlined workflow, to generate much better images than a certain level. I can likely improve with better focus and/or seeing, perhaps make use of new sharpcap features but that is about it.

 

The bottom line as you say is what more can I see with EAA versus other approaches?

 

For me (and that brings in the demon of competition) 'what is the quality of a result per unit of expense and complexity of acquisition?'  That puts things much more in perspective.

 

Thanks for weighing in, and I hope we see more of your posts in the forums

 

Bob
 


Edited by Bob Campbell, 24 September 2023 - 08:42 AM.


#92 jimhoward999

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 08:48 AM

I know nothing of Psychology, but I have observed this forum.

 

The forum is not drifting or degrading.  In a week this particular topic will fall off the first page of the EAA subforum and then be forgotten.

 

Topics that discuss trends in EAA,  or shrinking differences between EAA and AP,  or offer personal definitions EAA, or wax philosophical about EAA, tend to get visceral responses.   In the words of Idina Menzel, let it go.


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#93 jml79

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 08:57 AM

No worries Bob, if you ever make it to the great white north, I have an dark empty field and some good beer. I’m sure you have a ton of things I could learn from you and some great stories. 


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#94 Bob Campbell

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 09:06 AM

No worries Bob, if you ever make it to the great white north, I have an dark empty field and some good beer. I’m sure you have a ton of things I could learn from you and some great stories. 

Wow, how generous. Much appreciated. I believe we could both learn from each other. flowerred.gif

 

Bob



#95 Bob Campbell

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 09:07 AM

I know nothing of Psychology, but I have observed this forum.

 

The forum is not drifting or degrading.  In a week this particular topic will fall off the first page of the EAA subforum and then be forgotten.

 

Topics that discuss trends in EAA,  or shrinking differences between EAA and AP,  or offer personal definitions EAA, or wax philosophical about EAA, tend to get visceral responses.   In the words of Idina Menzel, let it go.

Agreed. The sooner this is all buried, the better in my book. Frozen was a cool movie.

 

Bob



#96 Bob Campbell

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 09:18 AM



" I might even try some crazy experiments like a super budget rig (Sky Adventurer with SV-105 and SV-501). We want more young people in the hobby, EAA is the ticket"

 

attachicon.gif Stack_30frames_1800s_WithDisplayStretch.jpg

 

 

 

I think we would all be surprised at how good a result can be obtained.

 

Bob



#97 bigbangbaby

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 09:40 AM

I’ll assume some responsibility for this dust up. I recently posted in the EAA forum a filtered, mono image that was acquired in NINA and stacked in AstroPixelProcessor.  I was working through some issues with Jocular at the time. Stacking post acquisition is a violation of the “no post processing” rule. Bob called it to my attention and moderators removed the images.

 

As for it being a competition, I’ve said here on a number of occasions, I only compete with myself. I’m always looking to optimize my equipment and improve results. Yes, EAA image quality matters to me. Many objects have intricate details that can get smeared out by light pollution and over stretching. Seven months in I’ve discovered mono cameras and filters work better and more consistently for me. They have greater sensitivity than color cameras and seem less affected by moonlight. In fact, I’ll probably sell my remaining OSC soon. No criticism of OSCs. Many imagers get great results with them. And they are way simpler to manage, especially for EAA. I asked Robin if he has any plans to add multi-spectral capabilities to SharpCap. No immediate plans, he says. Which is a bummer, because SharpCap is such a great tool otherwise.
 

As for mono and filters somehow degrading the spirit of EAA, I disagree. I watch images develop in real time as I would with a OSC. I liken it to the Wizard of Oz that begins in monochrome and flashes to full color.

 

Enjoy your personal EAA journey of discovery. It’s a brief blip in time. Don’t waste a moment.


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#98 Bob Campbell

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 10:02 AM

I’ll assume some responsibility for this dust up. I recently posted in the EAA forum a filtered, mono image that was acquired in NINA and stacked in AstroPixelProcessor.  I was working through some issues with Jocular at the time. Stacking post acquisition is a violation of the “no post processing” rule. Bob called it to my attention and moderators removed the images.

 

As for it being a competition, I’ve said here on a number of occasions, I only compete with myself. I’m always looking to optimize my equipment and improve results. Yes, EAA image quality matters to me. Many objects have intricate details that can get smeared out by light pollution and over stretching. Seven months in I’ve discovered mono cameras and filters work better and more consistently for me. They have greater sensitivity than color cameras and seem less affected by moonlight. In fact, I’ll probably sell my remaining OSC soon. No criticism of OSCs. Many imagers get great results with them. And they are way simpler to manage, especially for EAA. I asked Robin if he has any plans to add multi-spectral capabilities to SharpCap. No immediate plans, he says. Which is a bummer, because SharpCap is such a great tool otherwise.
 

As for mono and filters somehow degrading the spirit of EAA, I disagree. I watch images develop in real time as I would with a OSC. I liken it to the Wizard of Oz that begins in monochrome and flashes to full color.

 

Enjoy your personal EAA journey of discovery. It’s a brief blip in time. Don’t waste a moment.

Thanks for offering to share the responsibility, but I don't buy it. The post you made was taken care of, and nothing more came of it. If you think that your post might have put a thought in my mind to raise a fuss about wheels (etc) I don't believe that is true, but of course we can't probe deeply into our own subconscious mind.

 

Perhaps if I were stretching to make some connection between your post and my creating this thread it would be the steps you did in that post was a subset of what an AP enthusiast would execute, and apart from using Jocular which accomplishes this in a 'real time' observing experience the same steps are still performed under legitimate EAA rules.

 

I just wish Steve could see that he can post as much as he wants of the narrowband filter wheel stuff. I hope with time (not so much) he can come to that realization.

 

Regards,

 

Bob


Edited by Bob Campbell, 24 September 2023 - 10:04 AM.


#99 BrentKnight

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 10:16 AM

I don't do filter wheels because nobody has convinced me the effort and expense is worth the difference in the final capture.  I'm more than willing to spend more money - if it brings me more enjoyment, but I don't see a big benefit for me on this one.  I have done a couple captures of galaxies with narrowband filters and it would be interesting to see those stacked without the filter, but I'll leave that for more capable EAA'ers to do ...


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#100 bigbangbaby

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Posted 24 September 2023 - 10:29 AM

Future EAA images from me will be mono filtered RGB and/or narrowband and will they adhere to the rules. FWIW, the original intent was to bypass EAA and go straight into AP with mono and filters. It's the first camera setup I purchased. I quickly discovered how complex it was and decided to try EAA as a first step. Sharpcap was the natural choice, which prompted purchase of a color camera. It was a compromise I made to get started. I'm glad there's an alternative to SharpCap that supports filtered live stacking, albeit one that is less powerful and sophisticated. 


Edited by bigbangbaby, 24 September 2023 - 10:30 AM.

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