17 replies to this topic

[donniesoprano]

I'm having a hard time deciding between these two binoviewers.  In the past (20 years ago) I had the Denk std's when they were first released and really liked the binoviewer experience (in fact I'm not really a monoviewer at all), but as life changed, so did my priorities and I sold them.  More recently about 6 years ago, I bought the WO flavor and while I like them, they are a bit frustrating with the eyepiece holders and merging images; I know there's better options out there.  I'm nearly ready to make that jump to a nicer set, so I think I've narrowed it down to the Denk Binotron and the Baader MaxBright II.

 

The issue is that I can't seem to find much in the way of direct comparisons (I know they're in different 'classes') but I'm trying to figure out if the Binotrons are worth the extra $300.

 

The corrector/reducer situation doesn't need to come into play, I'm pretty much just talking about the binoviewer bodies themselves.  I'll be using a nosepiece instead of a direct thread or bayonet mount.

 

Scopes that I'll be using this on currently: AT72EDII, AT102ED, Meade 8" SCT.

 

Which seems like the better fit to you and why?

 

ds

[kroum]

I think they are pretty similar in terms of optical performance and clear aperture.

 

The major difference would be the optical path corrector setup.  Baader offers several different thread-on correctors of various magnification factors, whereas the Denk has the power switch, which allows 3 different magnifications for each eyepiece pair.

 

It’s no secret I’m a big fan of the power switch setup.  I find it really cumbersome to change out 2x eyepieces all the time, or to remove the whole binoviewer to change correctors to get a different magnification, so it’s a real advantage to have the power switch and get 3 magnification options at the pull of a couple of levers and the turn of the focuser.  I spend more time enjoying the view and less time fiddling with equipment.

 

edited to add:

 

another cool feature of the binotron is that it is user-collimateable with their collimation eyepiece, so if you ever have trouble merging the images, you have the means to correct it without having to send it in for service.

Edited by kroum, 26 September 2023 - 07:45 PM.

[betacygni]

I’ve had both, the Binotrons are better. Optically the main difference is the Binotrons have minimal internal reflections, while the Maxbright II have pretty substantial reflections on brighter stars (creating a false double star look on brighter stars). Actual image quality though I wasn’t able to tell a difference.

All that said I don’t think you should ignore the powerswitch. This is what makes the Binotrons really be better than the alternatives. My other binoviewers will be getting sold soon, the convenience of the powerswitch can’t be understated.

[donniesoprano]

The reason I mentioned that the OCS options didn’t matter to me is because I already have a Powerswitch diagonal on my SCT and I plan to buy the OCS 37 to make it refractor friendly, too.

 

I don’t want the fact that I already have that to influence my bino decision, since the Powerswitch will work with any of the binoviewers (I think).

 

I’m really interested in the difference in the binoviewers themselves.

 

ds

Edited by donniesoprano, 26 September 2023 - 08:40 PM.

[noisejammer]

My suggestion would be to compare the collets and use this as your metric.

 

I have no experience of the Binotron but my earlier Denk II cannot really be used at high power when eyepieces have an inconveniently located undercut. This particularly applies to Televue Eyepieces. The Baader offerings use their Click-Lock collet which works with every 1.25" eyepiece I have tried.

 

Optically, I can't tell the difference between my Denk II and my Baader Mk V.

 

Collimation of the Denks - even the Denk II - is easy. I don't have a collimation eyepiece.

 

The Denk II has an odd mounting arrangement that tends to vignette its aperture. Again, this may not apply to the Binotrons, but you may want to take a look. The Baader system does not have this issue.

[RAKing]

The Baader MBII uses similar ClickLock collets that work as well as the Mark V collets.

 

My eyepieces are pairs of TeleVue Panoptics and the "little" Naglers (16T5 plus the T6 series).  All work well in these collets.

 

Ron

[Reid W]

ds-

 

It's great you have the powerswitch diagonal.  In mono-view with a 30mm flat field or 27mm Panoptic it was all I needed when I had a C11. (and not binoviewing that evening)

 

Ok.

 

I have found views are better when my Denk2 is direct connected to the diagonal as compared to using a 1.25" or 2" nosepiece  in the binoviewer and setting into the holder on the diagonal.  That extra 2" (or so) of increased light path seemed to add additional magnification, seemed to darken the stars as well.  

 

I would bet you could get a quick connect to thread into your binoviewer body from Denk or Baader.

[Eddgie]

The Binotron has some very attractive features. 

 

One thing not mentioned is that the Binotron has user collimateable eyepiece holders. They should come in perfect collimation, but sometimes if you have a bit of adult strabismus, you could probably correct for this condition by collimating the BVs to your own eye misalignment. I have read many times that people could not merge the image in binoviewers, and my own theory is that anyone that cannot merge likely has a bit of un-diagnosed adult strabismus. This condition is rarely diagnosed unless it is severe enough to cause eyestrain. 

 

The focusers on the Binotron are quite nice and on par with the Maxbright II, which is a good thing.

 

The Binotron self centering diopters work great with most eyepieces. 

 

 

It is much faster to change eyepieces with the MB II. If you are using a power switch, then you often don't need to change eyepieces, but if you change eyepieces a lot, the Maxbright II is by far and away the best BV ever made from an eyepiece change standpoint, though the Mk V is nearly as good, but I like the little arm on the MB that lets you easily get a bit extra clamping force. With the Binotron, you have to make a few turns of the collet sometimes, while with the MB II, you only need to flip the little arm. Just faster and easier. 

 

As mentioned, the MB can occasionally have reflections, but this is often due to telescope alignment. If the optical axis of the binoviewer is tilted, then the MB can have reflections, but the Binotron can also have reflections if the optical axis is tilted.  This can be due to focuser mis-collimation. This is critical on Newtonians and reflectors, but not usually an issue on SCTs. I do think that the Binotron has a bit better control over internal reflections, but I fought reflections in my Binotron for months until I finally figured out that the focuser of my dob was tilted with respect to the optical axis. Again, this can happen to Newtoninans and refractors but is rarely a problem with SCTs. When I finally got my focuser collimated, the issue with internal reflections completely disappeared in but my Binotron and Mark V. I had the issue with the Maxbright II but the scope I had at the time did not have a collimateable focuser. 

 

It is pretty easy to diagnose the problem, but unless the focuser can be collimated, there may be nothing to be done about it, and again, I think the Binotron may have a bit better internal reflection control, but to know for sure, one would really want to do some scientific testing. 

 

Both are excellent binoviewers and I cannot recommend one over the other. I can only tell you the behaviors of each. I hope it is helpful.  

Edited by Eddgie, 03 October 2023 - 06:42 PM.

[donniesoprano]

Thank you everyone for the very helpful information.  I appreciate the candor and constructive advice.

 

ds

[norvegicus]

Could you retrofit a set of ClickLocks onto the Binotron?

[Eddgie]

Could you retrofit a set of ClickLocks onto the Binotron?

In theory, anything is possible, but it is likely that this would be impractical. If you are using the Binotron with a power switch or power switch diagonal, you can often do a full session with one pair of eyepieces. Some people have dozens of eyepieces, but the power switch setups typically give you three very useful powers and I found that when I used the power switch with my dob, I rarely changed eyepieces.  Low, medium, and high power was fine for the vast majority of objects.

 

I used zooms in conjunction with the power switch for planets and in conjunction with the power switch, I had a range of something like 140x to 600x. 

[Eddgie]

I should mention this in favor of the Binotron. When you use a power switch, especially with an OCS, one has to recognize that the light path length is a factor in magnification.

 

What this means and why it is important is that if you shorten the light path (as you would with the Maxbright vs the Binotron), the power steps become compressed because the different amplifying lenses are working at a shorter focal length. If one is using an OCS, this can be compensated for by putting a spacer between the nose of the diagonal and the OCS to lengthen the light path.

 

If not using an OCS, one might consider putting a spacer on the nose of the Maxbright, to once again increase the light path so that the ranges don't get compressed.

 

This does not sound like a big deal, but the three steps of the power switch give nicely spaced jumps, and if you loose a little too much on the top end, you might find it necessary to swap to a shorter focal length eyepiece sometimes.  The speed of the scope is of course a big factor and in an SCT, the shorter light path could help keep the high power arm from being too high. 

 

The Binotron will work at a good low, medium, and high power right out of the box but the same can be achieved by the Max II, but to match the steps might require adding some spacers here or there. 

 

As you can see, there are a lot of little detail issues. I love binoviewers and I just include these things so that people will have a good idea of how they behave in different configurations. 

[kroum]

Eddgie, your posts are always so informative and often answer questions I haven’t even yet thought to ask!

[donniesoprano]

I received the MaxBrightII today.  Wow, the eyepiece holders and diopters are dreamy.  Can't wait to get this thing under the stars.  Perhaps the conditions will cooperate on Monday.

 

Thank you, again, for all the input,

 

ds

[mikeDnight]

I get no internal reflections with my Maxbright ll, which as far as I'm concerned is both optically and mechanically top notch. 

[donniesoprano]

Sorry for the delay, just closing the loop here.  The MBII is really nice.  Viewing with it is very comfortable and the adjustments are nice and easy to use.  The diopters work great and are a major, major upgrade compared to the WO.  The eyepiece holders are as well.

 

My only real gripe is the OCS.  It’s cumbersome and I expect that fingerprints are inevitable on the glass because it’s so finicky.  The method of attachment is succinct and invisible (doesn’t make the bino longer or anything), but there’s no way I’d be handling that in the dark.  I’m quite concerned with dropping it when installing or uninstalling it.  The only safe’ish way to manage multiple OCS in the field for multiple magnifications would be having multiple nosepieces, which feels cost prohibitive.  This is especially an issue if you have more than one telescope you want to use the MBII on in a single session, but that require different OCS’s or one doesn’t require the OCS (cat/cass).

 

Else, I’m in love.  Thank you all for your input,

ds

[RAKing]

I don't think Baader expects us to change the GPC a lot during a session, but if I have to change, it's not too hard.  I have the Zeiss coupler (microbayonet) on the nose of my BV unit and use the Baader QC atop the diagonal to hold the BV to the diagonal.  The GPC is screwed into the Zeiss coupler, and I can unscrew the GPC and thread on another quickly if needed.  But TBH, after I figured out which GPC worked best with a particular scope, I haven't bothered to change anything during a session.

 

Since you are using your Denk Powerswitch diagonal, you could attach the QC coupler to a T-2 nosepiece instead and expose the GPC by breaking that connection.  It's easier to unscrew the GPC from the Zeiss coupler than to fish it out of a T2 nosepiece or diagonal, IMHO.  You would have to 'flip" the lenses in the GPC from the MBII direction to the Zeiss direction, but that is a one-time change that you can do indoors.

 

Anyway - I hope you are enjoying your new MBII BV!

 

Ron

[donniesoprano]

Hey Ron, yes, I don’t plan to change the GPC (and may not even use it after I get a new Denk piece), but I mentioned it for those who do use GPCs to switch powers.  It’s as cumbersome as the old Denk OCS that I had on the Std 18+ years ago that came in several parts and had to be reconfigured to change powers.

 

Just making sure future readers are aware in case they stumble on the thread.  The Denk switch is a very nice binoviewer accessory.

 

ds