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New Vaonis product reveal to take place on 11/11/2023

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#51 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 01:05 PM

I do not believe the lens has been modified on passenger, it was a complete redesign for the pro though, they did not just add a field flattener, they incorporated it in to a new build (per Agnes)

The Passenger model will be gone in a few days. They changed not only the chip but the lens as well, as now the description for the lens is the same as the Pro model. I could be wrong, we'll see.

 

The Vespera pro model will be better suited for smaller DSO objects, the Sun and Moon, as it will have a longer focal length and significantly better resolution due to the smaller pixels. Conversely, the Vespera Passengers will take faster photographs of nebulae with a better Signal to Noise ratio.


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#52 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 01:07 PM

Looks like the hydrogen alpha response will be stronger… that’s cool

I will add information about the QE of CMOS chips of Vespera (IMX462)  and Vespera Passengers (IMX585).


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#53 Psion

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 02:47 PM

I do not believe the lens has been modified on passenger, it was a complete redesign for the pro though, they did not just add a field flattener, they incorporated it in to a new build (per Agnes)

Some photos show that the IMX462 CMOS chip is just suitable for rendering a flat FOV and is borderline good quality. Chromatic aberration correction is also not ideal, the Seestar has a visibly better lens.

Since the lens description for the standard Vespera and Passengers is different, I was challenged by the lens redesign.



#54 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 03:39 PM

I think if you really think that then you should not buy one but mine has exceptional optics, 4 element design with high quality glass and lantheum, I remember speculation from the early days that the optics did not have to be as refined because the footprint of the 462c was so small, however that was just speculation because back then most of us considered 1500 cheap for the robot. But anyway apparently there design team has decided the optics are good enough to illuminate 6.2mp on the imx585 and knowing Vaonis they simply will not put out anything subpar so I’m expecting passenger to perform well…. With just 222 of them it seems likely the optics were hand picked, these are all hand assembled and tested at a small factory in France 

Some photos show that the IMX462 CMOS chip is just suitable for rendering a flat FOV and is borderline good quality. Chromatic aberration correction is also not ideal, the Seestar has a visibly better lens.

Since the lens description for the standard Vespera and Passengers is different, I was challenged by the lens redesign.



#55 alan.dang

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 03:51 PM

I picked one up and put my old Vespera up for sale. I bought mine early on before the price drop, but hopefully someone will get an early Christmas present getting mine at a deal.

I went with the passengers since the Vespera is ideal for widefield given short subs and no rotator. The Pro has the newer optics, but at f5, it will be hard to collect nebulosity if you are in a light polluted environment.

I wonder if they will release a non-LE aversion after this first run is over or if this is just the quantity of sensors they have.

#56 Psion

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 03:57 PM

We'll see what the reality is when the telescope arrives next week. Quadruplet means a front doublet and a rear doublet corrector, the basic optical assembly. The better optics have Quintuplet, so a 3-element triplet lens for image free from chromatic aberration and a 2-element field corrector for a flat image field.

 

I assume Passengers will have these FOVs.

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  • Vaonis FOV.png


#57 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 04:01 PM

It would surprise me if the 222 is the last we see of this, I’m going to sell my classic too when Passenger arrives… just being patient to put it through its paces to ensure all is good, I’m too addicted to this to go without :) looks like they sold over 100 so far today

I picked one up and put my old Vespera up for sale. I bought mine early on before the price drop, but hopefully someone will get an early Christmas present getting mine at a deal.

I went with the passengers since the Vespera is ideal for widefield given short subs and no rotator. The Pro has the newer optics, but at f5, it will be hard to collect nebulosity if you are in a light polluted environment.

I wonder if they will release a non-LE aversion after this first run is over or if this is just the quantity of sensors they have.



#58 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 04:08 PM

I spent the last week just doing Star fields with the classic, if passenger performs as well then I’ll be happy with it, I have no issues with vespera optics, any issues I have seen were the result of people not taking the time to achieve good focus, shooting to near to zenith or not leveling properly, as long as you check those three boxes you should get nice stars across the field https://x.com/artemi...1XgzO5JXF9NadZA

We'll see what the reality is when the telescope arrives next week. Quadruplet means a front doublet and a rear doublet corrector, the basic optical assembly. The better optics have Quintuplet, so a 3-element triplet lens for image free from chromatic aberration and a 2-element field corrector for a flat image field.

 

I assume Passengers will have these FOVs.


Edited by GSBass, 11 November 2023 - 04:09 PM.

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#59 Psion

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 04:10 PM

It is quite possible that the Vespera 222 will replace the old Vespera, it will just cost 1500 EUR without the big tripod.



#60 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 06:20 PM

That seems likely, hard to know what they are thinking but it’s clever marketing if this was a soft launch, someone already offered to buy my tripod so I’ll probably do well on this upgrade if I get a good price on my vespera

It is quite possible that the Vespera 222 will replace the old Vespera, it will just cost 1500 EUR without the big tripod.



#61 Psion

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 06:26 PM

A few days ago, a used Vespera sold for €1000 on eBay, not a bad price.



#62 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 07:38 PM

I would feel good around a grand, I was an early bird so that’s all I have in it

A few days ago, a used Vespera sold for €1000 on eBay, not a bad price.



#63 alan.dang

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 07:41 PM

I have mine at just $800 which is a great deal. I probably could get more for it, but in a way, I hope this creates another Vaonis fan which leads them to support the company over time.

I find that the gradient control is exceptional. I have the AP130 and VSD100 and I am very happy with the lens quality from the Vaonis. It responds very well to PixInsight/BlurXterminator and the autofocus algorithms are superb.
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#64 GSBass

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 07:45 PM

I bet it will be pretty imaging the horsehead and Orion together, I have done it with Vespera but it was very long and skinny, Passeger should be able to open that scene up substantially

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#65 Psion

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 12:39 AM

Yes, Passengers makes two panoramas and stitches them together manually or in some program. It is also possible to make one panorama, but it is a bit limited.


Edited by Psion, 12 November 2023 - 01:00 AM.


#66 Demarki

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 02:29 AM

I wonder how both the Vespera Passengers and pro compare to the EVscope 2? I assume they will also be releasing a pro or EVScope 3 sometime in the near future if they want to stay relevant.



#67 Psion

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 04:19 AM

I have owned eVscope for two years and can compare it to Seestar. Unfortunately, for nebulae, the eVscope is pretty bad and is more suitable for shooting smaller galaxies and clusters due to the longer focal length and larger diameter. But the price is already incredibly high for today. I bought it for 3500 EUR, today it is 1000 EUR more expensive. Passengers will be a better option. First of all, it has a large field of view, thanks to the mosaic mode, but mainly because of the much bigger chip. I did not hesitate and ordered the Passenger immediately. The price of the simillar equipment is half.


Edited by Psion, 12 November 2023 - 04:20 AM.


#68 jprideaux

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 07:36 AM

I wonder if the passenger CovalENS can get both the Heart and Soul together or both the North American and Pelican?

#69 Psion

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 08:20 AM

Exactly, that's the range that will cover.



#70 GSBass

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 08:59 AM

I have this question of degree measurements in front of Celine now, she wrote this morning and said she would get back to me with that tomorrow when she goes back to the office, it’s easy to assume a very wide field of view given the 24mp spec…. But I still think there may be limits of what the pi4 can handle…. The computer board is my biggest concern on passenger, the files will be much bigger to align and stack, but the board is substantially faster than the pi3 used in stellina so my concerns may be unwarranted

I wonder if the passenger CovalENS can get both the Heart and Soul together or both the North American and Pelican?



#71 alan.dang

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 12:35 PM

One thing that was mentioned but they said not during the preorder phase is that they are considering an upgrade program for the Vespera Classic.  I got mine for $2K, not the kickstarter price, so it’s a huge hit to the wallet.  That said, the Vaonis software is so impressive that I would buy the Hyperia over a traditional setup at that price point.

 

In my mind, the Passengers is a superior product to the Pro.  You have a faster scope, larger sensor, and higher QE.  The 2.9 micron paired with the f/4 speed means you’re already diffraction limited and you’ll run into the seeing challenges.  The higher resolution of the Pro only shows benefits for planetary and lunar photography.  Granted, the Bayer filter gives you a little bit of leeway, but I actually think that the Pro and Passengers will be very close in real world performance in suburban environments.

 

The real question is if they will enable pro mode for the Passengers.



#72 Psion

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 01:03 PM

The Vaonis Pro version has an IMX676 chip, which has significantly better resolution and is almost ideal for the 250mm focal length. Existing Vespers with a focal length of 200 mm and an IMX462 or IMX585 chip have large pixels, and the image is undersampled. The PRO version will have better image calibration (dark, flat and bias frame) and new optics with a better corrector. The battery will run 2x longer, will have 10 times the disk capacity, better exposure adjustment options, and I think a Raspberry Pi5. Vespera Passengers will not use the full chip area but only the 2880x2160 resolution and has older Raspberry Pi4.



#73 GSBass

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 02:09 PM

Yes according to the faq you will be able to take dark frames with passenger… in fact the latest update has this capability for all Vaonis robots that use singularity. I think it’s true pro is going to be the best robot you can buy but passenger is unique enough to consider, it will be capable of taking the widest fields compared to all others

One thing that was mentioned but they said not during the preorder phase is that they are considering an upgrade program for the Vespera Classic.  I got mine for $2K, not the kickstarter price, so it’s a huge hit to the wallet.  That said, the Vaonis software is so impressive that I would buy the Hyperia over a traditional setup at that price point.

 

In my mind, the Passengers is a superior product to the Pro.  You have a faster scope, larger sensor, and higher QE.  The 2.9 micron paired with the f/4 speed means you’re already diffraction limited and you’ll run into the seeing challenges.  The higher resolution of the Pro only shows benefits for planetary and lunar photography.  Granted, the Bayer filter gives you a little bit of leeway, but I actually think that the Pro and Passengers will be very close in real world performance in suburban environments.

 

The real question is if they will enable pro mode for the Passengers.



#74 Psion

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 02:34 PM

That's why I decided to have both versions.


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#75 GSBass

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Posted 12 November 2023 - 02:51 PM

It seems likely passenger will be a keeper even after I upgrade to a more advanced model…. But that depends a lot on the fov of the unannounced larger aperture product, if it’s a longer focal length with a narrower fov then that would be a nice compliment to passenger and I would use them both…. But they could use a huge chip in the new scope that would make that unnecessary to have both

That's why I decided to have both versions.




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