296 replies to this topic

[GSBass]

Well this is a smart telescope forum and that’s what smart scopes do

"...as long as you have someone to put it out for you then you could still image,"...!!!!

This is an issue I have with what is 'perceived' as the main use for Smartscopes!  Like so many of us who are too old, or not in good health, but who want to stay active in astronomy, it was just ASSUMED that that the question from duck2k, a Visual(!) observer, was about 'imaging'. It Wasn't! 

I'm the same. I'm strictly visual, and instead of quitting astronomy participation altogether, would like to just place a scope outside, push a button, and then come inside and simply view the objects on a TV or large Tablet.  Imagers do fine work, but, hard as it may be for a lot of you to believe,  many of us could care less about imaging! We want to simply view, and carefully observe ( as we used to do visually), as many details as possible, in as many objects as possible,  on any given night!

I feel that a select few, all imagers, have totally taken over the smartphone threads, and have tried to steer EVERY astronomer to imaging, or to then almost get them to leave--- if they didn't come over to the imaging side of things.  This is truly a shame...

[Bean614]

GSBass wrote:  "Well this is a smart telescope forum and that’s what smart scopes do"    Seriously?

 

That's like Dominating a thread on a new car with nothing but discussions on its built-in Entertainment Package.  Sure, that IS what cars do these days, but, there's SO much more!

 

There's SO many more folks, whom Unistellar, Vaonis, ZWO, etc., WANTED to bring 'into their fold', and they DID know how appealing this would be for visual observers, BUT.... small, single minded groups of folks have shut out the visual observers, and not done any favors for the companies currently producing those things.

  Your answer to duck2k says it all--- Even if someone's post is NOT about imaging, you will MAKE it about imaging, or you will have no use for that person in the thread.

   If you look at the entries on the 'Smart Telescopes' Forum, in the right column is the date of the most recent comment of that thread.  A few months ago, the first 15 0r 20 threads ALL had comments from the Current Day.  Now, not so much.... a few...

 Who did that?  Who managed to kill interest and questions in a ridiculously fast growing part of the hobby?  Who is responsible for the current sell-off of these smart scopes (Check the Classifieds lately???)?  Perhaps some of you need to take a look in a Mirror.

Edited by Bean614, 21 December 2023 - 05:16 AM.

[boakes99]

The word imaging is literally in the second sentence of the first post in this thread.

[mdowns]

Please remember  these opening lines of the TOS,which we all checked off and agreed to upon joining CN.

 

"The guiding principles of your participation on Cloudy Nights are:

Play Nice

Share

Be Polite

Be Honest

Be Tolerant

Respect other members"

 

  PMs are fine for private disagreements,even heated ones,but not the open forums.If you're using a smart scope,to image,to observe,to pursue scientific research it's all welcome in this forum.

[GSBass]

Not really sure what this about.. you can’t use a smart scope for visual, they only image with a cmos chip, perhaps the rant was astrophotography vs eaa?  but When I refer to imaging I am referring to both…. But anyway main point is these scopes can be really beneficial for aging and disabled folks and extend the hobby for them way past the point they would normally give it up imho

Please remember  these opening lines of the TOS,which we all checked off and agreed to upon joining CN.

 

"The guiding principles of your participation on Cloudy Nights are:

Play Nice

Share

Be Polite

Be Honest

Be Tolerant

Respect other members"

 

  PMs are fine for private disagreements,even heated ones,but not the open forums.If you're using a smart scope,to image,to observe,to pursue scientific research it's all welcome in this forum.

[mdowns]

. But anyway main point is these scopes can be really beneficial for aging and disabled folks and extend the hobby for them way past the point they would normally give it up imho

Well said and dead on task.Myself, and likely several others here, are enjoying the stars again despite the physical limitations that removed us from our traditional scopes.

[Bean614]

Not really sure what this about.. you can’t use a smart scope for visual, they only image with a cmos chip, perhaps the rant was astrophotography vs eaa?  but When I refer to imaging I am referring to both…. But anyway main point is these scopes can be really beneficial for aging and disabled folks and extend the hobby for them way past the point they would normally give it up imho

OK, before everyone gets totally bent out of shape, here's my statement, which I COULD/Should have phrased differently, about the intentions of the 'smartscope' manufacturers: 

"they DID know how appealing this would be for visual observers".    I SHOULD have said 'visual observers' who, for a plethora of reasons, now needed a bit of Electronic Help to see what they had previously been easily observing Visually, with their Telescope of choice.  Their reasons for needing electronic help are numerous, but all of you know what I'm speaking about--- Age/Health making it difficult to move/set-up scopes/mounts anymore; Light Pollution locally; inability, for whatever reason, to travel to dark sites; want to share views with family/friends; and many, many more reasons, all of which are perfectly valid!  And NONE of these folks want anything to do with 'Imaging', let alone even KNOW what half the terminology means (Stacking?? Integration?? Pixel Size??).  

   They really don't want to deal with wires and cables, most don't even want to deal with a LapTop/Computer!

A nice Tablet, TV, or decent sized Cell Phone will do just fine, thank you, and WiFi will get the Live/Near-Live views from the Smart-Scope to me & my Tablet, while I'm INSIDE on a cold Winter's night!  And that's that.  This is what was initially VERY attractive about these scopes. But, as I stated previously, it seems as if this rather large 'Segment' of the Hobby has been unceremoniously forced from the smartscope Fora unless they embrace 'imaging'.  

   And I stand by what I politely and civilly stated in my previous post.

Merry Christmas!

[GSBass]

Perfectly understandable position, it’s just terminology that causes confusion, I think most will use the term eaa to describe that visual aspect of the hobby when it relates to robotics. It does not get discussed much but regardless of how the community has embraced post processing with these scopes, it was always Vaonis’ goal to provide exactly what you were asking for, a nice “view” of the target without the customer having to do anything… and they have succeeded in that , it may never be quite as good as what you can achieve doing post work but for visual observers it’s pretty great. Zwo is not quite there yet but over time they will tweak the levels in their algorythm too and targets will look decent without doing anything….. only caveat is all these systems require time on target so their will never be instant gratification that people looking through an eyepiece get….although for most Dso lots of these targets are just smudges without large apertures. Here is a recent sample of “visual eaa” with Vespera compared to a “imaging astrophotography” photo, one requires effort, the other requires no effort, They are both good imho—— ie top image is the jpg straight from scope, bottom is post processed unstretched tiff

OK, before everyone gets totally bent out of shape, here's my statement, which I COULD/Should have phrased differently, about the intentions of the 'smartscope' manufacturers: 

"they DID know how appealing this would be for visual observers".    I SHOULD have said 'visual observers' who, for a plethora of reasons, now needed a bit of Electronic Help to see what they had previously been easily observing Visually, with their Telescope of choice.  Their reasons for needing electronic help are numerous, but all of you know what I'm speaking about--- Age/Health making it difficult to move/set-up scopes/mounts anymore; Light Pollution locally; inability, for whatever reason, to travel to dark sites; want to share views with family/friends; and many, many more reasons, all of which are perfectly valid!  And NONE of these folks want anything to do with 'Imaging', let alone even KNOW what half the terminology means (Stacking?? Integration?? Pixel Size??).  

   They really don't want to deal with wires and cables, most don't even want to deal with a LapTop/Computer!

A nice Tablet, TV, or decent sized Cell Phone will do just fine, thank you, and WiFi will get the Live/Near-Live views from the Smart-Scope to me & my Tablet, while I'm INSIDE on a cold Winter's night!  And that's that.  This is what was initially VERY attractive about these scopes. But, as I stated previously, it seems as if this rather large 'Segment' of the Hobby has been unceremoniously forced from the smartscope Fora unless they embrace 'imaging'.  

   And I stand by what I politely and civilly stated in my previous post.

Merry Christmas!

 

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[Bean614]

OK, now we're making progress with this!  I would note that, on the few occasions I would plop a Revolution Imager-2 into the Diagonal, with the correct settings, it took 6 seconds to get a quite satisfactory view of various DSO's, Galaxies, and even Comets!  Now, that's what I call a near-live view!  No, not quite up to Vaonis, or even ZWO, but very acceptable.  The issue with that is there's an actual 'set-up time required, and setting up/using one's 'regular' rig (tripod, mount, scope) and adding the R-2, even the newest version, with Remote/WiFi for everything(!), including (with SkySafari) controlling Camera, Scope Go-To's, and Settings from INSIDE, there's STILL that prep time.  The attractiveness of the smartscopes is NO set-up, just take it out press a button or two, and go inside with one's tablet, and enjoy the views!  I hope that day comes sooner, rather than later.

[GSBass]

It’s my opinion that day is here now…. I can’t say it’s been that way since the beginning but I would say Vespera classic has been very mature for the last 13 months, literally have somewhat shareable images on brighter targets within 15 minutes from the time I decide to sit it outside…. I don’t do that of course, I generally let my targets run a long time, but I still have sessions where I’ll slew around just observing multiple short exposures

OK, now we're making progress with this!  I would note that, on the few occasions I would plop a Revolution Imager-2 into the Diagonal, with the correct settings, it took 6 seconds to get a quite satisfactory view of various DSO's, Galaxies, and even Comets!  Now, that's what I call a near-live view!  No, not quite up to Vaonis, or even ZWO, but very acceptable.  The issue with that is there's an actual 'set-up time required, and setting up/using one's 'regular' rig (tripod, mount, scope) and adding the R-2, even the newest version, with Remote/WiFi for everything(!), including (with SkySafari) controlling Camera, Scope Go-To's, and Settings from INSIDE, there's STILL that prep time.  The attractiveness of the smartscopes is NO set-up, just take it out press a button or two, and go inside with one's tablet, and enjoy the views!  I hope that day comes sooner, rather than later.

[Stevegeo]

GSBass wrote:  "Well this is a smart telescope forum and that’s what smart scopes do"    Seriously?
 
That's like Dominating a thread on a new car with nothing but discussions on its built-in Entertainment Package.  Sure, that IS what cars do these days, but, there's SO much more!
 
There's SO many more folks, whom Unistellar, Vaonis, ZWO, etc., WANTED to bring 'into their fold', and they DID know how appealing this would be for visual observers, BUT.... small, single minded groups of folks have shut out the visual observers, and not done any favors for the companies currently producing those things.
  Your answer to duck2k says it all--- Even if someone's post is NOT about imaging, you will MAKE it about imaging, or you will have no use for that person in the thread.
   If you look at the entries on the 'Smart Telescopes' Forum, in the right column is the date of the most recent comment of that thread.  A few months ago, the first 15 0r 20 threads ALL had comments from the Current Day.  Now, not so much.... a few...
 Who did that?  Who managed to kill interest and questions in a ridiculously fast growing part of the hobby?  Who is responsible for the current sell-off of these smart scopes (Check the Classifieds lately???)?  Perhaps some of you need to take a look in a Mirror.
[/quote
so i take it youre not a big fan of these smart scopes?

[Stevegeo]

i enjoy visual very much, but with limitations in night sky, limitations of the human eye as it is myself even with my C14 cannot see the detail the Vespera (or Stellina) i have could do.

if someone told me three yrs ago i would enjoy a robotic scope , i would have said no way.. i have always been a visual guy with very little astrophotography, maybe 4 or 5 time in 40 yrs..

Now im out in my observatory with the C14, while the Tic Tac ( vespera) and Stella the stellina are doing their things. and after i close up for the nite, they share with me what they have captured.

best part of using these two now, i get to share with friends and family. my friend Tony, who is 90 yrs and an avid astronomer, loves the both of them , sitting there holding the tablet while the target comes to life. As he once said its showing him things he couldnt /has never seen visually

[GSBass]

Agree… only wishing my robot had more aperture… but that will come, I’m not positive what will be the best aperture for these robots because you have to take affordability and transport in to account, but think at least 4” would most likely satisfy me

i enjoy visual very much, but with limitations in night sky, limitations of the human eye as it is myself even with my C14 cannot see the detail the Vespera (or Stellina) i have could do.

if someone told me three yrs ago i would enjoy a robotic scope , i would have said no way.. i have always been a visual guy with very little astrophotography, maybe 4 or 5 time in 40 yrs..

Now im out in my observatory with the C14, while the Tic Tac ( vespera) and Stella the stellina are doing their things. and after i close up for the nite, they share with me what they have captured.

best part of using these two now, i get to share with friends and family. my friend Tony, who is 90 yrs and an avid astronomer, loves the both of them , sitting there holding the tablet while the target comes to life. As he once said its showing him things he couldnt /has never seen visually

[GSBass]

Btw, hopefully I explained myself fully that I consider visual astronomy as looking through an eyepiece and consider smart scopes as imagers… either for eaa or astrophotography, it was never my intent to belittle anyone’s favorite part of the hobby… visual still has its place snd always will… but think smart scopes will remain a separate entity

[Joshua Roth]

Saw this at a Target store and wondered if there was a serviceable imaging scope for less than $100. This toy does take pictures through a refractor/telephoto lens, according to the PDF instruction manual. Unfortunately, said manual states that the telescope "cannot take photos of distant stars ... it can only clearly capture the larger moon in the night sky." Fortunately, it has lots of lo-fi games and NASA videos onboard. I am not posting this either to make fun of the product or to disrespect this thread in any way. Rather, I wonder about the mass-market potential of SeeStar-like devices once they drop in price even more while picking up more educational features (including, potentially, user-created content or observing tours). Has anyone on this thread imaged the moon with one of these toy telescopes? Clear skies - JR

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[GSBass]

The moon can be quite forgiving… I’m sure young kids getting any glimpse of craters would be quite a thrill for them… and the educational nature of leapfrog makes me a little less critical than I would normally be…. Probably would be fine for a 6 year old

Saw this at a Target store and wondered if there was a serviceable imaging scope for less than $100. This toy does take pictures through a refractor/telephoto lens, according to the PDF instruction manual. Unfortunately, said manual states that the telescope "cannot take photos of distant stars ... it can only clearly capture the larger moon in the night sky." Fortunately, it has lots of lo-fi games and NASA videos onboard. I am not posting this either to make fun of the product or to disrespect this thread in any way. Rather, I wonder about the mass-market potential of SeeStar-like devices once they drop in price even more while picking up more educational features (including, potentially, user-created content or observing tours). Has anyone on this thread imaged the moon with one of these toy telescopes? Clear skies - JR

[duck2k]

I have mentioned I am a visual type of guy. I have owned my smart scopes for a few months. I have enjoyed capturing images on my iPad that I normally see through eyepieces (BT’s). When I am at a star party, I use both. I may have my Vespera shooting one object, while I’m observing another. Or the same object. I enjoy it, but the thing that really is gratifying is showing my images on my iPad. I have friends that love to see the smart scope image, and love to share images with friends and family. They freak out and say “that little scope is doing that - WOW!”

 

My point is whether you’re a dedicated astrophotographer, visual, newbie, advanced, old, young and in between - these scopes are for everyone. I myself haven’t learned processing (but eventually and only as far as the smart scope). For now I just add shades, tones, and highlights.

 

I will say this: the smart scopes have proven their mettle and have turned the hobby in an interesting direction.

[GSBass]

I’ve become quite attached to astrocooker.com, you will still use the same level tools you are using but running it through astrocooker first gets you relatively close to the full processing people do….. not quite as good but still very nice, only takes a few minutes

I have mentioned I am a visual type of guy. I have owned my smart scopes for a few months. I have enjoyed capturing images on my iPad that I normally see through eyepieces (BT’s). When I am at a star party, I use both. I may have my Vespera shooting one object, while I’m observing another. Or the same object. I enjoy it, but the thing that really is gratifying is showing my images on my iPad. I have friends that love to see the smart scope image, and love to share images with friends and family. They freak out and say “that little scope is doing that - WOW!”

 

My point is whether you’re a dedicated astrophotographer, visual, newbie, advanced, old, young and in between - these scopes are for everyone. I myself haven’t learned processing (but eventually and only as far as the smart scope). For now I just add shades, tones, and highlights.

 

I will say this: the smart scopes have proven their mettle and have turned the hobby in an interesting direction.

[duck2k]

I’ve become quite attached to astrocooker.com, you will still use the same level tools you are using but running it through astrocooker first gets you relatively close to the full processing people do….. not quite as good but still very nice, only takes a few minutes

I saw that app sounds cool. I’ll check it out.

[GSBass]

You will still need to do basics on the result but it does do a lot of the heaving lifting, noise reduction, sharpening, gradient reduction… just leaving you to adjust black levels and color mostly, I think you will like it

I saw that app sounds cool. I’ll check it out.

[DWCT]

Celestron has joined the parade.

Their just announced entry is called Celestron Origin Intelligent Observatory and is based on their 6 inch RASA go to.

Weight at 19 Kg, 6 inch aperture, IMX 178 (6.4 MP) color chip, F/L=335, f/2.2, tray for 1.25 & 2 in filters, dew heater, $3999 USD, Built in Lithium battery (? useful observing time)

Pretty light on details: https://www.astronom...bservatory.html

Would like to see a review on software capability.

[duck2k]

Celestron has joined the parade.

Their just announced entry is called Celestron Origin Intelligent Observatory and is based on their 6 inch RASA go to.

Weight at 19 Kg, 6 inch aperture, IMX 178 (6.4 MP) color chip, F/L=335, f/2.2, tray for 1.25 & 2 in filters, dew heater, $3999 USD, Built in Lithium battery (? useful observing time)

Pretty light on details: https://www.astronom...bservatory.html

Would like to see a review on software capability.

Hmmm…not within my budget.

[gcf1971]

Question from an amateur astrophotographer- is it possible to have a smart scope that can either be for planetary viewing or a combination deep sky/planetary smart scope?

[jprideaux]

Question from an amateur astrophotographer- is it possible to have a smart scope that can either be for planetary viewing or a combination deep sky/planetary smart scope?

All of the smart-scopes out so far have short focal-lengths optimized for DSOs.  Planets need a long focal-length.  It would be a difficult engineering project to have an automated scope that could switch between short and long focal-lengths and so far no-one has made such an automated scope.  Of course people with their own DIY rigs can do this by starting out with something like a F10 C8 and adding a reducer to make the focal-length suitable for DSO or add a barlow to make it suitable for planets.  A robotic scope would need to have a similar way to rotate in either a reducer or barlow to get the two quite different focal-lengths needed.  Perhaps in time someone will make such a automated scope...  

[jprideaux]

Vaonis has announced a Vespera-2 scope which falls between the Vespera-passenger model and the upcoming Vespera-pro.  It has the F5 optics (with field flattener) similar to the Vespera-pro but uses the same IMX585 chip as the Vespera-Passenger (but I think the full chip is used).   It has 25GB of storage so it won't be ideal for saving all the individual FIT files.  the Vespera-pro will have more internal storage.