98 replies to this topic

[SewagePickle]

I recently purchased the autoguider and after attempting to use it for the first time, I ran into some big issues. My gear is a celestron nexstar 8se, Wi-Fi module, autoguider, and the stock mount that comes with the telescope. When I attempt to align through the Wi-Fi module, I get an error message at the end of alignment telling me there’s a pointing error and I should try a new alignment. I’ve tried to align through CPWI (or whatever the acronym is), and it tells me the same thing. I’ve updated the software on both the hand controller and the SSAG but nothing has changed. Does anyone know what could possibly be wrong? Did I get a dud?

[starryskyn]

Seems there are StarSense problems aplenty.  I have the 114 AZ reflector with the holder for my compatible LG phone on top of it.  When I got it in May, I aligned the phone camera, but no stars were ever detected on startup.  Still a problem this month.  Celestron support has not replied.

Edited by starryskyn, 14 November 2023 - 04:00 AM.

[mlord]

Seems there are StarSense problems aplenty ..When I got it in May, I aligned the phone camera, but no stars were ever detected on startup.  Still a problem this month.

Wrong "StarSense".    Blame Celestron's mis-marketing department for the confusion.

[mlord]

I recently purchased the autoguider and after attempting to use it for the first time, I ran into some big issues. My gear is a celestron nexstar 8se, Wi-Fi module, autoguider, and the stock mount that comes with the telescope.

You would expect that to work, but the StarSense AutoGuider (SSAG) product seems to have random issues in various setups, particularly involving the 6/8SE mount.  That mount has much weaker electronics on the AUX ports than all of Celestron's other mounts, and often doesn't seem to work well with various combinations of Celestron branded add-ons, especially the SSAG.

 

Perhaps that's the case here.  Tricky to know, unless you can try that SSAG unit on a different type of mount to see if it is fine there.

 

You might be able to reduce the electrical "loading" on the mount by unplugging the hand-controller (yes, it does unplug) and plugging the SSAG into that port, getting rid of whatever splitters you may currently be using.

 

And also.. NEVER try to run that mount using AA batteries in the provided holder -- that is just a marketing gimmick that does not work in real life.  Use a stronger external power supply, preferably AC-to-12V power to begin with.

[Frisk]

SSAG refused to see my i Series mount if I used what amounts to a splitter (the older Celestron aux/PC dongle).  So it wouldn't get out of the starting gate. It didn't just fail to align. Worked great for alignment plugged into the aux port. Autoguiding in altaz resulted in so much clunking I decided it was scary to do to such old hardware and those spur gears.

 

Celestron asks about power when trying to figure out SSAG-related issues with other mounts (CPC, AVX, etc.)

 

I've just ordered a 5 Amp power brick as the last ditch effort to get my SSAG to not cause issues (NR 17 the moment I turn off guiding) with my CPC (after replacing a motor) just in case the issue is indeed power.

 

All of that aside, your SSAG is trying to align so it is communicating and you aren't pulling errors with the hardware. So as I asked of someone else having a SSAG alignment problem, walk us through your entire process please, from plopping the tripod down, powering on the mount and everything that follows. Leave nothing out.

 

And just for funzies, HC firmware version. (Honestly haven't checked to see if there is a new SSAG firmware version recently.) I don't think MC firmware matters but if you have that throw it in as well.

Edited by Frisk, 14 November 2023 - 09:13 PM.

[SewagePickle]

What I do is set my tripod up and level it first and foremost. I then connect to my ac adapter and I do all the misc. tasks like putting the SSAG on and plugging in the splitter, Wi-Fi module, and connecting the SSAG to the splitter, as well as setting up eyepieces. I then power everything on, set the optical tube level and face it north, connect to the Wi-Fi module, and open SkyPortal and select connect and align to which it then solves three plates and tell me my pointing error is too big and to disconnect and try another alignment.

As far as firmware goes, I just a few nights ago updated both the SSAG and HC to be late enough versions to work together.

[mlord]

Get rid of the splitter for now.  As I said earlier, this may also mean getting rid of either the hand-controller or WiFi adapter temporarily, so that things can be plugged directly into the mount without splitters.  The idea is to see if it will work in a minimal set-up -- if not, then almost nothing you try will work.  Otherwise, you'll have a base set-up to build upon.

 

Also, it sometimes makes a difference WHICH of the two mount ports (HC or AUX) are used for which device, so experiment there.

 

A solution does exist for this when all else fails -- the HomeBrew Gen3 Relay device (aka. HBG3-Relay) was designed by me to solve issues exactly like this.  You can find out a bit more on that from https://rtr.ca/hbg3/ and from the development/discussion threads on Cloudy Nights.

 

Cheers

Edited by mlord, 15 November 2023 - 07:16 AM.

[Jay Jay]

I went through two SSAG's, first I sent back to B&H thinking I had a lemon, Second one I sent to Celestron and they tried to solve the issue. When It returned  the same issues arose.

1. Hasndcontroller freezing.

2. Random slewing when I choose a target.

3. slewing super slow in thew wrong directiions.

4. auto slews to zenith.

and so on....

 

Acording to Celestron "certain" CPC mounts are having issues with the SSAG.

 

I dont know if other mounts are having these issues but mine definetly is not compatible.

I thanked them for their efforts but that product was a bust for me.

 

 

CPC1100HD  no accessories

 

[Frisk]

What's your power source Jay? My CPC800GPS XLT has no slewing problems and no freezing. Just No Response 17 errors like clockwork when I exit autoguiding and intermittently otherwise with SSAG.

[Jay Jay]

I went through two SSAG's, first I sent back to B&H thinking I had a lemon, Second one I sent to Celestron and they tried to solve the issue. When It returned  the same issues arose.

1. Hasndcontroller freezing.

2. Random slewing when I choose a target.

3. slewing super slow in thew wrong directiions.

4. auto slews to zenith.

and so on....

 

Acording to Celestron "certain" CPC mounts are having issues with the SSAG.

 

I dont know if other mounts are having these issues but mine definetly is not compatible.

I thanked them for their efforts but that product was a bust for me.

 

 

CPC1100HD  no accessories

I took advise from others who had issues with the SSAG and mounted an old faithful Star Sense Autolign and its works just fine. 

[Jay Jay]

What's your power source Jay? My CPC800GPS XLT has no slewing problems and no freezing. Just No Response 17 errors like clockwork when I exit autoguiding and intermittently otherwise with SSAG.

My powersource is the 10 hour lithium powertank.

 

The issues you possted I had as well.

 

Everytime I restarted the Telescope, a new problem would appear with the same result...system failure

[Frisk]

How old is your CPC? Do you know when it was manufactured? Mine is one of the first ever built and it has frankenboards -- not the same board numbers as later CPCs and there are external jumpers and the cabling is different. This is what I attribute my problems to.

 

But maybe I'm wrong. Yeesh.

 

Anyway, I'm not selling my SSAG because I really like the precise GOTO.  Do I think it is worth $799? No. I think the price should be maybe $500. It does more than SSAA so it should cost more.  But if I want to guide with it, I have to realign after each star. All that said, realignment is a snap... Still it doesn't deliver all it advertises for our CPCs. 

 

They are going to have to revamp their marketing literature I guess.

 

Newer mounts should be fine though.

[Rac19]

All this discussion about some Aux port constructions working while others do not is confirmed by my experience with my Evolution 8 mount, which has 4 Aux ports. I think that MLord will confirm that the Celestron Aux Bus is implemented to tyevTTL standard which is intended for internal configuration within a circuit board and possibly between circuit boards. It is nit designed as an external communication standard like USB.

 

It seems to me that it does not cope well with external interference (RFI), inadequate power supply, hot plug-in or a some combinations of devices plugged in adjacently. I have seen various combinations of these factors cause communication failure. A robust power supply is essential. Hot plug-in can lead to permanent damage.

[mlord]

All this discussion about some Aux port constructions working while others do not is confirmed by my experience with my Evolution 8 mount, which has 4 Aux ports. I think that MLord will confirm that the Celestron Aux Bus is implemented to TTL standard  ..

My own Rev.K Evolution has AUX ports that never fail.  With anything.  Despite my best efforts!    Makes it a real pain when testing HomeBrew inventions: they work perfectly every time here, but would sometimes fail on other types of mounts.  Note that the mature HBG3 design does now work everywhere though -- modelled on the Evolution's electronic design!

 

Celestron doesn't have a single "AUX bus" design.  Every mount seems to do it slightly, or significantly, differently from others.  The basis is 5V TTL signalling with tri-stating when idle.  But some accessories appear to use +3.3V signalling..

 

The Evo drives the bus more or less directly though some low value resistors for current limiting, with all four ports wired directly in parallel.   By contrast, the 6/8SE mount uses very high impedance resistors, separately on each port.  This makes the 6/8SE very vulnerable to noise, especially when also using passive splitters, and easily the worst example of an AUX bus. 

 

Other mounts are in between..

Edited by mlord, 20 November 2023 - 08:51 AM.

[Frisk]

@Sewagepickle, do you have any issues aligning manually?

 

How long have you had your SE? 

 

Does it align OK manually with wifi and skyportal?

 

I don't necessarily know that the splitter is the problem in your case. Communication is happening. (Not saying it won't be a problem later though!)

 

What is mounted to your C8?

 

Could your alt nut be too tight preventing reasonable movement or not tight enough causing slippage?

 

One more Q. Do you have limited view of the sky? If you do I don't have anything useful on that but I'm curious to have reasonably complete info on your situation. 

 

 

What I do is set my tripod up and level it first and foremost. I then connect to my ac adapter and I do all the misc. tasks like putting the SSAG on and plugging in the splitter, Wi-Fi module, and connecting the SSAG to the splitter, as well as setting up eyepieces. I then power everything on, set the optical tube level and face it north, connect to the Wi-Fi module, and open SkyPortal and select connect and align to which it then solves three plates and tell me my pointing error is too big and to disconnect and try another alignment.

As far as firmware goes, I just a few nights ago updated both the SSAG and HC to be late enough versions to work together.

 

?

Edited by Frisk, 20 November 2023 - 08:54 AM.

[Frisk]

I was reading some ancient posts with SkyPortal and SSAA and sometimes deleting data and setting and then reinstalling the app fixed their pointing errors. Worth a shot!

 

Another question is do you have the HC plugged in while using SkyPortal over wifi? Someone else reports they have to set date and time on the HC with SSAG and SP. It doesn't make sense to me but it doesn't hurt.

Edited by Frisk, 20 November 2023 - 01:17 PM.

[mlord]

Someone else reports they have to set date and time on the HC with SSAG and SP [SkyPortal].

That report is undoubtedly 100% incorrect.  No point in spreading it further.

 

I've now purchased an SSAG for myself, to aid in debunking this and other misinformation, as done already in the past for various other bits of Celestron gear.    Probably will get it this time next week.

 

After now having read through the entire SSAG manual (recommended!), I've also ordered an SVBONY SV183 (2" IR-Pass Filter) for the SSAG.  This should improve use around twilight and when pointing near a bright Moon.

 

Has anyone here tried an IR-Pass Filter on the SSAG?

 

[Frisk]

I asked the guy for more details because it doesn't make sense BUT since most people probably don't use SP via WiFi AND an HC I am willing to remain open-minded. I don't trust the vendor very much these days so even if it isn't date/time/location related he could have a different problem related to the combo.

 

Anyway... I had asked Frank about using a filter and for the life of me I can't remember what he said. LOL.

 

I have used SSAG with a full Moon during twighlight without filter and it saw enough to align even when I couldn't make out stars. 

 

Do you have a camera for EAA or are you purely visual? 

[Frisk]

BTW as I was typing the above to Sewage I could hear you whispering "Lore!" in my head, Mark.

[mlord]

Strictly visual here, no camera other than the StarSense ones.  I already have great success with SSAA, so don't need SSAG for anything really other than tracing what it does and how it does it.

 

When the hand-controller is left plugged in while using a different alignment controller (eg. SkyPortal), it becomes a completely passive listener.  It sends no messages after start-up without the user initiating action on the keypad.

 

EDIT: Actually, it does send one message without user-input:  If the Evolution mount sends a low-battery message out, it responds with an ACK to stop the mount from spewing the same message over and over and over..

Edited by mlord, 20 November 2023 - 04:57 PM.

[Rac19]

My own Rev.K Evolution has AUX ports that never fail.  With anything.  Despite my best efforts!    Makes it a real pain when testing HomeBrew inventions: they work perfectly every time here, but would sometimes fail on other types of mounts.  Note that the mature HBG3 design does now work everywhere though -- modelled on the Evolution's electronic design!

 

Celestron doesn't have a single "AUX bus" design.  Every mount seems to do it slightly, or significantly, differently from others.  The basis is 5V TTL signalling with tri-stating when idle.  But some accessories appear to use +3.3V signalling..

 

The Evo drives the bus more or less directly though some low value resistors for current limiting, with all four ports wired directly in parallel.   By contrast, the 6/8SE mount uses very high impedance resistors, separately on each port.  This makes the 6/8SE very vulnerable to noise, especially when also using passive splitters, and easily the worst example of an AUX bus. 

 

Other mounts are in between..

So I guess that's the problem, it isn't actually a standard. The only common component across all models seems to be the RJ12 connector, not really an ideal choice (for hot plugging) as it happens.

 

I wonder if Ethernet might have been a better choice although it might have be more expensive when the original decision was made (last century).

 

Today, maybe USB-C would be a good choice.

[freestar8n]

Hi-

 

I tried using an IR filter once and it didn't help in twilight, but I think it's worth more experimentation.  At the time I wasn't looking at the live view - and that would probably give a better idea of whether or not it helped.  I have a good amount of light pollution with about 18.5 mag skies - and it seems to plate solve just fine without a filter when it is dark.  But my impression is that as twilight ends and it starts to get dark - a plate solve will happen sooner with no IR filter.  But I'd like to hear what others find.  It is nice that 2" filters can screw on the front - and I do have a 2" Baader IR pass filter.

 

It may be worth tweaking focus on the SSAG, which isn't too hard to do.  The SSAG comes apart easily and you can just use live view.  But I think the focus was fine as-delivered.

 

One thing that definitely does not work is to try to plate solve with the lens cap on.  My setup is outside and my computer is inside - and after I uncovered the telescope and removed the lens cover from the SCT, I forgot to remove it from the SSAG - and wondered why it was failing to solve...

 

Frank

[mlord]

Today, maybe USB-C would be a good choice.

The problem with Ethernet, USB-C, etc.. is they are very complex, layered transmission methods, which normally require fancier interface hardware, a much higher power microprocessor, and more RAM than the simple micro-controllers used in most of the mounts.  Thus they would increase the costs of the mounts, and of many accessories too.

 

Eg.  My own HomeBrew Gen3 would not be as simple/cheap to build if it had to implement Ethernet and/or USB-C.  The cost would probably quadruple for it.

 

Cheers

Mark

Edited by mlord, 20 November 2023 - 05:17 PM.

[dalbert02]

 

Has anyone here tried an IR-Pass Filter on the SSAG?

Yes. In "live view" the contrast is improved substantially with an IR pass filter.  I can only imagine this helps when aligning in sky polluted skies.  I did a 4 point alignment and enable tracking and galaxies stayed centered albeit dimly in the eyepiece for hours.

[Jay Jay]

How old is your CPC? Do you know when it was manufactured? Mine is one of the first ever built and it has frankenboards -- not the same board numbers as later CPCs and there are external jumpers and the cabling is different. This is what I attribute my problems to.

 

But maybe I'm wrong. Yeesh.

 

Anyway, I'm not selling my SSAG because I really like the precise GOTO.  Do I think it is worth $799? No. I think the price should be maybe $500. It does more than SSAA so it should cost more.  But if I want to guide with it, I have to realign after each star. All that said, realignment is a snap... Still it doesn't deliver all it advertises for our CPCs. 

 

They are going to have to revamp their marketing literature I guess.

 

Newer mounts should be fine though.

I bought mine used and have no idea of its manufacturing date. on a side note it was in excellent condition but I sent it in for servicing anyways.

 

I was already sending the SSAG and they needed my unit.

 

I was very excited about the SSAG for the same reasons you stated, the functions are amazing.

 

Yes, I agree that $799 is a bit much, especially with the issues that a number of us were/are having.

 

I'm getting refunded for mine, as much as I wanted to keep it, it simply wasn't compatible with my unit.

Edited by Jay Jay, 28 November 2023 - 06:52 PM.