849 replies to this topic

[Fiske]

OK, I have to come clean. My focuser was "tuned" by an experienced astronomer (and tool & die maker) before he sold it to me. I imagine it does make a difference. 

That does seem like a salient detail.

 

[Terra Nova]

“So how about it binocular enthusiasts? What is your ideal support telescope? Or do you need one?”

 

I do for sure! I started with binoculars but in a year, I had a telescope. I have never looked back in almost sixty years! I love binocular astronomy but I can’t imagine being without a telescope. Yes, there are things a binocular can do better than a telescope. Binoculars are in general, more portable, and usually much more so. Binoculars are more intuitive to use, by far! - They’re a direct extension of your two eyes, (and traditionally, your two hands). Just pick up your binocular and look through it. You couldn’t get more intuitive than that! And binoculars as a rule, give you a wider field of view and a more expansive, immersive view! Yes, there are exceptions to that- some rich field telescopes can produce FOVs equal to or greater than some binoculars, but in most cases, it’s the other way around. On the other hand, telescopes are more versatile instruments. Most will easily go from low to much higher magnifications. Per inch of aperture, no binocular can match the potential magnification of a telescope, generally! (Again, exceptions, especially short, fast achros, but as a rule, a 100mm binocular is not going to show you the detail on Jupiter, Saturn, Mars, or the Moon, that a good 4” refractor will. I would never be without both. My telescope(s) support my binoculars just as surely as my binoculars support them!

Edited by Terra Nova, 27 November 2023 - 10:47 PM.

[Terra Nova]

My favorite ‘support’ telescope:

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[Fiske]

I have the same Ash Gibraltar setup, Terra. Side eyepiece holders and all.

 

  

[dmorrow]

Out of curiosity, why did you go with the C6 instead of a 150mm mak?  

[Fiske]

Out of curiosity, why did you go with the C6 instead of a 150mm mak?  

I didn't see a Mak option like the 6SE including a goto mount at under $1000.   One of my regular observing buddies has a NexStar 8SE and is happy with it. I didn't want that much aperture/weight/expense for this application, so the 6SE seemed worth trying. I realized it wouldn't work with 2-inch backs, which was a negative, but the overall package features versus price seemed like a great value.

 

What Mak would you recommend? Do you observe with one?

[Fiske]

As a binocular and BT supporting refractor I am thinking 20lbs or less loaded as potential grab and go - to be deployed with a mount like the Manfrotto 612 video head, or the HAZ31 goto mount.

 

In the 120 to 127mm range these two are grabbing my attention - both are in the 14lb range OTA only.  Price wise the TSA would be a little cheaper, even after shipping from Kyoei.  Any thoughts?

 

ES 127 CF

 

TSA 120

Have you considered a Stellarvue SVX127D, Nuge?

 

[Terra Nova]

I have the same Ash Gibraltar setup, Terra. Side eyepiece holders and all.

 

  

I also have her baby brother on the Ash Panoramic ride. I ❤️ TeleVue!

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[Jon Isaacs]

OK, I have to come clean. My focuser was "tuned" by an experienced astronomer (and tool & die maker) before he sold it to me. I imagine it does make a difference. 

 

I have had a couple of Skywatcher two speed focusers for the ED 80, ED100 and ED-120  and worked on a few more. (People sometimes send me focusers to fix.). 

 

I consider them workable. Filing the drawtube flat as Echolight did has been standard practice from the very first days of the Orion ED-80 single speed. Focuser problems usually show up with heavier eyepieces, binoviewers and heavy cameras. Sometimes all that is necessary is an external adjustment, sometimes disassembly is necessary.

 

That s generally true of any Crayford. Other Crayfords are more robust and generally without issues like a drawtube that's very slightly concave so they pinon shaft only contacts the outer edge..

 

Jon

[dmorrow]

I didn't see a Mak option like the 6SE including a goto mount at under $1000.   One of my regular observing buddies has a NexStar 8SE and is happy with it. I didn't want that much aperture/weight/expense for this application, so the 6SE seemed worth trying. I realized it wouldn't work with 2-inch backs, which was a negative, but the overall package features versus price seemed like a great value.

 

What Mak would you recommend? Do you observe with one?

No, but I have been curious about Maks and I respect your knowledge and opinion.   

 

Currently I have the 4" shown in my signature as a "do all" optic, supplemented with the MMC 10x56 & the Orion 15x63.  However, I'm coming around to your view and thinking about changing to a BT for low power and a support telescope for high.  A Mak seemed like a decent, lower cost choice.  I already have a goto mount when needed and I live in AZ, so not too worried about temp acclimation.    Also, both my mounts are optimized for 15# to 20# loads.   

 

BTW - the do all SVX102D is no slouch.  It's set up for a low power at ~20x @ 3.6 degrees using the Baader 36mm Hyperion (72degree aspheric).  Beautiful flat field view, but obviously just mono.   The rest of my ES68s let me add 5X increments up to 35x.  

Edited by dmorrow, 28 November 2023 - 09:12 AM.

[Jon Isaacs]

For what its worth:

 

The 36 mm and 31 mm Baader Hyperion's are known for their off-axis astigmatism in moderate and faster focal ratio scopes. They're not in the Panoptic, Nagler, UWA,  UFF league at F/7.

 

Just saying..

 

Jon

[dmorrow]

For what its worth:

 

The 36 mm and 31 mm Baader Hyperion's are known for their off-axis astigmatism in moderate and faster focal ratio scopes. They're not in the Panoptic, Nagler, UWA,  UFF league at F/7.

 

Just saying..

 

Jon

True, but not distracting (at least for me). 

 

But the real reason I picked them, other than it's a high-quality EP, is that they are very light weight for a 72 degree view.  I can change out the 36mm hyperion to any other eyepiece and not worry about a major weight shift.  This is critical factor for me when using the M2C (manual alt-az).

 

One thing I've learned over the years in this hobby is that I am a happier, more content observer when I optimize the performance of the system rather than the performance of an individual component.  

Edited by dmorrow, 28 November 2023 - 09:35 AM.

[aznuge]

Have you considered a Stellarvue SVX127D, Nuge?

 

Checking it out now…

[Jon Isaacs]

True, but not distracting (at least for me). 

 

But the real reason I picked them, other than it's a high-quality EP, is that they are very light weight for a 72 degree view.  I can change out the 36mm hyperion to any other eyepiece and not worry about a major weight shift.  This is critical factor for me when using the M2C (manual alt-az).

 

One thing I've learned over the years in this hobby is that you should optimize the performance of the system rather than the performance of an individual component.  

 

I use manual alt-az mounts. They all have slow motion controls so balance is not an issue even with heavy eyepieces like the 31 mm Nagler.

 

I have an older Stellarvue mount, the MG-2 which has slow motion controls and friction adjustment levers. I can scan at low powers as with other alt-az mounts and track and center with the slow motion controls. With the 120 mm Eon, I went as high as 720x on close doubles but that was quite rare. My normal maximum magnification was 360x and occasionally 510x.

 

I don't know if Fiske will be chasing Dawes limit doubles and difficult unequal doubles but if he is and wants to use a manual alt-az mount. I recommend slow motion controls.

 

I understand compromises and would not have commented except for the description of a "beautiful flat field of view." In your scope, the 30 mm UFF 70 degree would provide a nice wide field that would essentially perfect though narrower than the 36 mm Baader. It weighs 550 grams so it might not be a balance problem for your scope.

 

Jon

[dmorrow]

I use manual alt-az mounts. They all have slow motion controls so balance is not an issue even with heavy eyepieces like the 31 mm Nagler.

 

I have an older Stellarvue mount, the MG-2 which has slow motion controls and friction adjustment levers. I can scan at low powers as with other alt-az mounts and track and center with the slow motion controls. With the 120 mm Eon, I went as high as 720x on close doubles but that was quite rare. My normal maximum magnification was 360x and occasionally 510x.

 

I don't know if Fiske will be chasing Dawes limit doubles and difficult unequal doubles but if he is and wants to use a manual alt-az mount. I recommend slow motion controls.

 

I understand compromises and would not have commented except for the description of a "beautiful flat field of view." In your scope, the 30 mm UFF 70 degree would provide a nice wide field that would essentially perfect though narrower than the 36 mm Baader. It weighs 550 grams so it might not be a balance problem for your scope.

 

Jon

Just a quick comment since this sidebar is off-topic, at the time I went with 36mm as an analog for the Nikon 18x70/Obi 20x70 binoculars, so wanted to be in the 20x zone.  It gave me a chance to evaluate the view at substantially less cost than the Nikons, especially now that they are no longer available. I'm sure others would be interested in the 30 UFF, but I already had a 28mm that I was happy with in the ES68.

 

Now back to Fiske and the saga of his search for the ultimate support scope. . . 

Edited by dmorrow, 28 November 2023 - 09:55 AM.

[Jon Isaacs]

Just a quick comment since this sidebar is off-topic, at the time I went with 36mm as an analog for the Nikon 18x70/Obi 20x70 binoculars, so wanted to be in the 20x zone.  It gave me a chance to evaluate the view at substantially less cost than the Nikons, especially now that they are no longer available. I'm sure others would be interested in the 30 UFF, but I already had a 28mm that I was happy with in the ES68.

 

Now back to Fiske and the saga of his search for the ultimate support scope. . . 

 

 

I believe Fiske has several fine options for his support scope. 

 

And he has a TV-101 and probably a 31 mm Nagler so stunning,, truly wide flat sharp to edge fields are already taken care of. (The TV-101 is a 4 element modified Petzval that's an F/11.5 ED doublet with a dedicated ED field flattener reducer. The final focal ratio is F/5.4)

 

Jon

[Fiske]

I use manual alt-az mounts. They all have slow motion controls so balance is not an issue even with heavy eyepieces like the 31 mm Nagler.

 

I have an older Stellarvue mount, the MG-2 which has slow motion controls and friction adjustment levers. I can scan at low powers as with other alt-az mounts and track and center with the slow motion controls. With the 120 mm Eon, I went as high as 720x on close doubles but that was quite rare. My normal maximum magnification was 360x and occasionally 510x.

 

I don't know if Fiske will be chasing Dawes limit doubles and difficult unequal doubles but if he is and wants to use a manual alt-az mount. I recommend slow motion controls.

 

. . .

Seeing conditions here are such that I'm guessing anything over 300x is going to be rare indeed.  Bill's 125-250x range seems pragmatic and real world for our area. And I will not be chasing Dawes Limit.  I'm impressed by heroic souls who manage such visual feats, but my preference is much more for relaxed and enjoyable viewing (with an occasional challenge). Getting under 2 seconds for doubles that are fairly closely matched, say within .75 magnitude, and for more uneven doubles that are slightly wider is a primary goal for the support scope. The M002C does not have slow motion controls, but the motion is darn impressive, I'll say that. We'll see how it performs at the magnification levels I expect to use.

 

 

 

I believe Fiske has several fine options for his support scope. 

 

And he has a TV-101 and probably a 31 mm Nagler so stunning,, truly wide flat sharp to edge fields are already taken care of. (The TV-101 is a 4 element modified Petzval that's an F/11.5 ED doublet with a dedicated ED field flattener reducer. The final focal ratio is F/5.4)

 

Jon

Yeah. The TV-101/31T5 combo has wide/flat covered for sure. I typically find myself using the TV-101 with Nagler 22T4 and 17T4 eyepieces. Thanks for the details abut the Petzval elements in the scope, Jon. Much appreciated. 

[Fiske]

Just a quick comment since this sidebar is off-topic, at the time I went with 36mm as an analog for the Nikon 18x70/Obi 20x70 binoculars, so wanted to be in the 20x zone.  It gave me a chance to evaluate the view at substantially less cost than the Nikons, especially now that they are no longer available. I'm sure others would be interested in the 30 UFF, but I already had a 28mm that I was happy with in the ES68.

 

Now back to Fiske and the saga of his search for the ultimate support scope. . . 

  

 

I would say the saga is more about a fellowship than a solo adventure. 

 

The Fellowship of the Ring Support Telescope. 

[dmorrow]

Well many of the characters are here . . .

 

Fiske = Aragorn

Jon = Gandalf 

 

If it’s ok, I’ll be Sam . . . I don’t know much about what I’m getting into, but I’m plucky and enthusiastic

Edited by dmorrow, 28 November 2023 - 12:33 PM.

[Fiske]

Well many of the characters are here . . .

 

Fiske = Aragorn

Jon = Gandalf 

 

If it’s ok, I’ll be Sam . . . I don’t know much about what I’m getting into, but I’m plucky and enthusiastic

  

[Wildetelescope]

Exactly. I'm not expecting a big step up on doubles from the 101, though I expect the resolution and brightness will be a slight improvement. The main thing is getting equivalent or slightly better functionality in an easier to deploy/use package.

 

 

I was pondering a 4" / 100mm f/9 ED refractor, but how much better would that be than the TV-101 I already own. Maybe a tad due to the longer focal length? Plus, for the EvoStar I was considering, the OTA alone costs as much as the NexStar 6SE with goto mount. A 5-inch refractor is too big. And too much money for good quality optics.

 

Just like any binocular or BT choice, it's not a one size fits all thing. Depending on your viewing context and interests, another option like a premium Dob or a larger SCT, or a longer f-ratio refractor (which I'll confess I have a yearning for ) might be a more suitable choice.

 

Larger BTs (I own both the 120XL and 127XL) at low to moderate magnification cover so much of what might be viewed with telescopes that switching back to monovision doesn't seem worth it to me. Yes, a bit more detail can be seen with the CC8 in open clusters like M 37 and M 38, for example, but the overall viewing experience with one eye instead of binocular vision is not nearly so enjoyable to me. YMMV, of course.

the 101's little brother, the 102 is a really nice f8.8 ED scope:-)   It is my grab and go.  It will work fine on the Stellarvue MC2 mount, (I have one), although I like using it with my AZ8.   Just a bit more beef.     IF you want goto, then I would be looking seriously at one of the Ioptron HAZ mounts, or perhaps one of the other Strainwave offerings.   I am looking down the road at selling my older GM8/EQ6 travel mounts for one of the strain wave mounts when I retire in a few years.  Light weight, alt az(and possibly GEM) and no counter wts. are appealing to me.  Back to topic, I do think a nice f9 ED(of any brand really) doublet would be an excellent companion to your bino's.   The TV102 is probably my favorite visual refractor.

 

Cheers,

 

JMD

[aznuge]

Have you considered a Stellarvue SVX127D, Nuge?

 

Seem very nice, but a little on the heavy side.  Stellarvue appears to have the mystique of elite quality surrounding its brand, but the wait time for delivery??

[Fiske]

It takes a year to build the scopes, but they are in continuous production. According to Vic Maris, the lead time for orders placed now is something like 30 days or a bit more.

 

Okay, inquiries have been made...

 

[PatientObserver]

A µ-180 is ~$1350 shipped from Kyoei...

Just sayin...

It is a big scope. Shipping will add a significant bump to the price.

[Fiske]

It is a big scope. Shipping will add a significant bump to the price.

Kyoei's shipping costs are surprisingly reasonable. And delivery times from Osaka to Kansas are typically 3 days. It's shocking.