847 replies to this topic

[dmorrow]

Did you get the handle for the M2C?  I find it very useful for high powers since I'm not grabbing the tube to track the target, reducing vibration.  The handle is well designed and plays well with the extension column. 

[Fiske]

Did you get the handle for the M2C?  I find it very useful for high powers since I'm not grabbing the tube to track the target, reducing vibration.  The handle is well designed and plays well with the extension column. 

Do you mean to tell me I have overlooked an accessory for this telescope? How is that even possible?

 

  

 

Thanks for the tip, Don. 

[dmorrow]

Do you mean to tell me I have overlooked an accessory for this telescope? How is that even possible?

 

  

 

Thanks for the tip, Don. 

Well, I was trying to be tactful 

Edited by dmorrow, 06 December 2023 - 07:22 AM.

[norvegicus]

It’s all about the accessories.

[Rich V.]

IMO, when you get to a 120mm or 130mm refractor you have enough leverage to control the scope easily by just grabbing and steering it by the 2" diagonal or the eyepiece.  Direct drive.  I can't think of a better handle.      I've never felt the need for a handle on my 130mm f/7 alt/az mounted scope, but I do use one with my short little 80mm f/6.  My mount/tripod doesn't vibrate though, and the alt/az movements are silky smooth with the 130mm riding on it.  To each their own, I suppose.

[dmorrow]

IMO, when you get to a 120mm or 130mm refractor you have enough leverage to control the scope easily by just grabbing and steering it by the 2" diagonal or the eyepiece.  Direct drive.  I can't think of a better handle.      I've never felt the need for a handle on my 130mm f/7 alt/az mounted scope, but I do use one with my short little 80mm f/6.  My mount/tripod doesn't vibrate though, and the alt/az movements are silky smooth with the 130mm riding on it.  To each their own, I suppose.

At this stage, it’s all about da bling 

Edited by dmorrow, 06 December 2023 - 12:00 PM.

[sonny.barile]

Fiske.   I have always been a single instrument does all type. I had a great time with a Nexstar 8se for almost a decade. Not that you need more complications, but……….try binoviewing in that SCT. It is what gave me the two eye bug…….High power two eyed views for planetary and lunar were amazing. I found it was possible to push power much higher with binoviewers in the f10 instrument. Forget wide field though…………even without the constraints added by the binoviewer prism size, the SCT gives narrow views. 

 

I sold that set up to move on to the BT-100XL-SD (one instrument for all views mentality). 

Edited by sonny.barile, 06 December 2023 - 01:14 PM.

[Bill Barlow]

Nice looking scope/mount combo Fiske.  It should provide you with some excellent views of about any object you want to observe.

 

Regarding your SV M2C mount, I have an extra/spare handle for the mount if you want it.  No charge-applying the observing buddy discount.  Let me know if you want it.

 

Bill

[Fiske]

Nice looking scope/mount combo Fiske.  It should provide you with some excellent views of about any object you want to observe.

 

Regarding your SV M2C mount, I have an extra/spare handle for the mount if you want it.  No charge-applying the observing buddy discount.  Let me know if you want it.

 

Bill

That would be wonderful, Bill. Thank you so much! 

[Fiske]

The Celestron 6SE is feeling feisty and ready to take on the EON 120 after a few updates including a Blue Fireball visual back, Celestron Twist-Lock diagonal (which I love), and an excellent Astrozap dew shield. 

 

 

I braved my neighbor's insane Christmas Vacation lights and hazy skies to do first light with the EON 120 last night (Wednesday 6 December) and with the 6SE tonight. My Wednesday began with a colonoscopy and EGD double feature (7 AM check in  ) but I was determined to observe with the EON and my resolve did not waver. I did not, however, attempt it Tuesday night when I was doing my colon prep. 

 

All good news on the medical front, plus I agreed to be a test subject in yet another research project, the second in two years. When I was asked last year, waiting to be wheeled into the procedure room, it occurred to me that it wasn't necessarily a propitious sign.   (But it is a way to help others.)

 

More soon on first impressions of the EON 120 and the 6SE. 

Edited by Fiske, 08 December 2023 - 07:28 AM.

[Fiske]

Here is my setup Wednesday night for first light with the EON 120, accompanied by the Oberwerk 120XL-SD, which was a fun pairing because of the aperture match.

 

 

 

 

The EON 120 is quick and easy to set up. Yes, the overall weight is considerably more than the 6SE, so it's two trips (the mount followed by the OTA), but still only a couple of minutes and no sky alignment to worry about. The 6SE can easily be hand carried as a single unit.

 

A RACI (right angle correct image) finder (in my setup the Mini Borg 60ED  ) is an essential for locating anything beyond the moon, brightest planets, and a few easily positioned DSOs. This is one of the things that amuses me about the frequently heard recommendation of an 80mm refractor as a beginner instrument (made by proficient observers with decades of experience). Good luck finding anything with that if you can't see it naked eye.  It's simple as can be with the 60ED riding shotgun, though.

 

Rather than switching eyepieces in the 120, I left my high magnification option (Pentax 10mm XW / 90x) in the scope and used the red dot / Mini Borg combo for positioning. That doesn't sound like a lot of magnification, but it was all that sky conditions would support. The finder configuration is somewhat cumbersome because it can't be done from a seated position -- the Mini Borg eyepiece position is too far from the EON eyepiece. This is an unexpected advantage of Jon's favored 10-inch Dob, honestly, because the Mini Borg can be positioned immediately adjacent to the eyepiece on the side of a Dob. Add a green laser pointer into that mix and you've got a convenient and efficient navigation system.

 

While objects can be easily located with a configuration like the EON 120 and a RACI finder, star hopping with it is nothing like the experience of roaming star fields with a BT, something that is seemingly hard to grasp for those who haven't spent much time with a BT. With the BT, a quick position is established with the red dot finder, and from there one is exploring star fields with both eyes and a correct image, matching one's naked eye view of the sky and easily related to star charts. It's like being in a space ship, immersive and captivating. 

 

OTOH, high magnification with a BT has considerable challenges. The field of view is much smaller. Star hopping is still possible with it, but it's a lot more work because the FOV is so small (the RACI finder is a much easier option). Swapping eyepieces on a BT is a pain, not only because of the laborious process of handling four eyepieces with locking rings and helical focusers, but because the instrument has to be repositioned. The easiest way to accommodate that is with a goto mount like the iOptron AZ Pro with a bino-bracket, but it is still an considerable effort compared with swapping eyepieces in a telescope.

 

The other issue is that optically, larger BTs are no match for APO refractors with similar aperture. This is readily apparent comparing the 120XL with the EON 120. The EON is just sharper, particularly at higher magnification. For my preferences, lower magnification, wide-field views are where larger BTs excel, and honestly no telescope is going to compare with the experience. Not for me, anyway. Interestingly, the 100XL-SD is a fairly good match with the Televue TV-101. Yes, the 101 is slightly sharper, but the difference is subtle. My recommendation is that if you're committed to high magnification views with a BT, go with the 100XL instead of a larger instrument, or be prepared to sink considerable $$ in a custom bino-scope setup with dual APO refractors, EMS diagonals, and etc. And excellent sky conditions are pretty much de rigueur. 

 

The views with the EON 120 are gorgeous, I must say. Really pleasing for doubles at higher magnification. And tighter doubles are much easier for me, wearing glasses, to resolve.

 

Miram in Perseus and Almach in Andromeda make an interesting comparison between the EON and the 120XL-SD.

 

Miram / STF 307
02h50m +55*54'
3.76/8.50 sep 28.7" pa 301*

 

Almach / STF 205
02h03m +42*20'
2.31/5.02 sep 9.47" pa 63.2*

 

To my surprise, Miram is considerably more pleasing with the 120XL, because the secondary is much brighter and its color more easily seen. This is the clearest demonstration of binocular summation I have personally seen -- two 120mm OTAs with the BT versus the single EON 120mm OTA. 

 

OTOH, Almach is simply gorgeous with the EON and actually hard to resolve with the 120XL (at lower magnification) because the primary is so much sharper and more cleanly defined with the EON. It would be possible to swap in higher magnification eyepieces with the 120XL and resolve it more easily, but the view would still not match that of the EON. Almach seen with the apo refractor was one of the highlights of the observing session, remarkably beautiful and captivating.

 

So, a successful test of pairing a BT for low magnification, wide field sky roaming, with an APO refractor for high magnification views.

 

  

Edited by Fiske, 08 December 2023 - 11:16 AM.

[Fiske]

Here is the Celestron 6SE in its first light outing on Thursday evening, December 7.

 

 

(Note manual.)

 

A certain amount of hilarity accompanied the session because the skies were somewhat cloudy, such that I could only just see brighter stars to do a 3 point All Sky alignment (and one of the three was actually Jupiter). Intriguingly, it isn't even necessary to identify the stars to do the alignment. All calculated by the GoTo computer based on your approximate location, date, and time. One of the stars was Caph in Cassiopeia, but the other was viewed through the branches of an enormous pin oak tree behind my house and I have no idea what it was. 

 

But it worked. And after being aligned, I was able to observe a series of double stars which weren't visible naked eye due to the clouds, but were easily resolved with the 6SE. Each was in the 1 degree FOV with the 24mm ES eyepiece from goto slewing alone. More details on the session in this What Did You See post. 

 

There is a bit of a learning curve for the various alignment options and other sundry details. I was googling with my mobile phone to learn how to actually enter SAO star numbers, but did figure it out thanks to this 2007 Cloudy Nights post, which was actually made on my birthday.  (What are the odds?) But really, it's not difficult to use -- I was able to do a successful alignment on my first try despite urban obstructions and cloudy skies. With a bit of practice, it will take only a few minutes to align.

 

I have also decided to give the Celestron SkyPortal wifi adapter a try. (Did not attempt using it on first light.) There is, however, a somewhat surprising design issue with the adapter. 

 

 

 

As seen in the image on the left, the adapter is directly in the diagonal swing path, and that is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm having a hard time grasping what the designer was thinking, honestly.  Anyway, easily resolved with a short RJ12 adapter cable ordered from Amazon for $7. I'll find a way to attach the adapter on the side of the rotating mount component so it is out of the way. With the adapter, the goto functionality can be integrated with SkySafari.

 

I found the views with the Explore Scientific 24mm *68 eyepiece (62.5x) to be surprisingly pleasing. Most of the doubles could actually be resolved even with that eyepiece, though I used a Morpheus 14mm (107x) for the tighter doubles and the higher magnification provided better separation on all of the doubles. The 14mm eyepiece was the most that sky conditions would support Thursday night, which I suspect is going to be a recurring theme. Higher magnification views will only be possible on better nights. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

 

So how does the 6SE compare with the EON 120?

 

The 120 view of Almach was breathtaking, and the conditions were so terrible Thursday evening that the 6SE view cannot be reasonably compared with it. The 6SE view of Almach was still pleasing though. It will be fun over time to see how the two instruments match up visually. And the EON 120 is easy enough to set up. But, honestly, for ease of use while observing, the fact that it can be hand carried as a single unit, doesn't even need a finder, plus the relatively modest price of the 6SE (which even with updated accessories is still about 1/4 the price of the EON 120 setup), the 6SE easily wins my Support Telescope vote. 

Edited by Fiske, 10 December 2023 - 09:46 AM.

[Echolight]

With my 6SE, I can move it up pretty high, for lots of clearance, without it being way out of balance.

 

I believe it is supposed to be slightly imbalanced towards the front anyway. To counter backlash.

 

From my angle, on the other side of this screen, it appears that you might have a little room on the dovetail to move the scope a little farther forward.

 

Oh, and I got a new eyecup for my ES68 24mm.

(the inner ring needs to be trimmed back)

Edited by Echolight, 10 December 2023 - 12:33 PM.

[Rich V.]

Fiske, that is a weird place to locate a rigid RJ dongle right on top of the mount.  I'm just guessing the designers figured the scope would never point itself beyond zenith, and as long as the diagonal isn't rotated from that position they don't collide, if I'm seeing things right.  It does look too close for comfort, though.  

 

Seeing issues have always been a problem for me with my 9.25" SCT.  My usual poor mountain seeing makes stars appear to be quivering blobs usually, and it's extremely rare when I can see in-focus diffraction rings with it.  The larger aperture sure doesn't help, either.  My 130mm triplet shows way nicer looking stars than the SCT most nights and the same goes for planets.  The 130mm is so much easier to set up on my alt/az Unistar, too, instead of the SCT's heavy EQ fork mount.  On great nights, though, the SCT has shown me more detail on planets than I've seen with any scope.  Sadly, it's only on those rare nights that my SCT can show its best and it's usually not worth the trouble for me anymore to set up just to be disappointed.  6" of SCT is likely more dependable but even then I'd suspect a 10mm eyepiece is getting near the limits most nights and a 7mm perhaps under rare seeing circumstances.  

 

I'm looking forward to hear how the little SCT matches up with the 120mm EON under better conditions.

[Fiske]

Fiske, that is a weird place to locate a rigid RJ dongle right on top of the mount.  I'm just guessing the designers figured the scope would never point itself beyond zenith, and as long as the diagonal isn't rotated from that position they don't collide, if I'm seeing things right.  It does look too close for comfort, though.  

 

Seeing issues have always been a problem for me with my 9.25" SCT.  My usual poor mountain seeing makes stars appear to be quivering blobs usually, and it's extremely rare when I can see in-focus diffraction rings with it.  The larger aperture sure doesn't help, either.  My 130mm triplet shows way nicer looking stars than the SCT most nights and the same goes for planets.  The 130mm is so much easier to set up on my alt/az Unistar, too, instead of the SCT's heavy EQ fork mount.  On great nights, though, the SCT has shown me more detail on planets than I've seen with any scope.  Sadly, it's only on those rare nights that my SCT can show its best and it's usually not worth the trouble for me anymore to set up just to be disappointed.  6" of SCT is likely more dependable but even then I'd suspect a 10mm eyepiece is getting near the limits most nights and a 7mm perhaps under rare seeing circumstances.  

 

I'm looking forward to hear how the little SCT matches up with the 120mm EON under better conditions.

Thanks, Rich!

 

It's way too close for my comfort, I'll tell you that. 

 

With regard to seeing versus aperture, it's certainly what I found with the 22-inch Dob. Larger aperture scopes are far more sensitive to seeing conditions and 4 nights out of 5 there was no point in going beyond low to moderate magnification with it. Still, hazy summer nights are about the best seeing in this area, usually a disaster for dew at dark sky sites, but much less problematic in urban areas. A rare urban advantage. 

 

Bill Barlow might weigh in on typical SCT magnifications in our area. He has been observing with various size SCTs for years, and recently sold his C11 and went with a 9.25, I think. And has also had 8-inch SCTs and has a C6 as well. He was saying 125-250x. I'm guessing many nights the limit is closer to 125x. 

 

I also have the Orion CC8 Cassegrain, which is going to get more outings on the iOptron AZ Tri-pier set up, so it will get in on the side by side fun too. 

 

At any rate, I love the 6SE and the EON 120 both. They will be showing up in my observing reports. (In a supporting role, naturally.  )

Edited by Fiske, 10 December 2023 - 04:06 PM.

[Echolight]

I didn't have a wifi adapter. But with the end of the dovetail on a C6 in line with the end of the clamp on an SE mount, and a biscuit in place of the wifi adapter, a long 2 inch visual back and 2 inch diagonal and XW40 has just a bit of clearance 

 

EDIT:

Doh!... I have the plastic bezel removed! Just noticed that the bezel limits how far forward you can move the scope.

 

Edited by Echolight, 10 December 2023 - 04:30 PM.

[Fiske]

I didn't have a wifi adapter. But with the end of the dovetail on a C6 in line with the end of the clamp on an SE mount, and a biscuit in place of the wifi adapter, a long 2 inch visual back and 2 inch diagonal and XW40 has just a bit of clearance 

IMG_20231210_151845688~2.jpg

 

EDIT:

Doh!... I have the plastic bezel removed! Just noticed that the bezel limits how far forward you can move the scope.

Did you bake that biscuit, Echo?

 

[Echolight]

Did you bake that biscuit, Echo?

 

Yes. In the oven. Especially for this experiment.

But it's no big deal 

[Echolight]

You could probably make a new bezel or cover with your 3D printer.

One that would let you move the scope farther forward.

If you are worried about dust or something getting in there without it.

I think some just make a flat cover.

Or you can put shims behind the dovetail.

https://www.cloudyni...arts/?p=3474878

Edited by Echolight, 10 December 2023 - 05:34 PM.

[Fiske]

You could probably make a new bezel or cover with your 3D printer.

One that would let you move the scope farther forward.

If you are worried about dust or something getting in there without it.

I think some just make a flat cover.

Or you can put shims behind the dovetail.

https://www.cloudyni...arts/?p=3474878

Or just use a $7 RJ12 adapter cable from Amazon. 

 

I loved Caddyshack, of course. 

[Bill Barlow]

Thanks, Rich!

 

It's way too close for my comfort, I'll tell you that. 

 

With regard to seeing versus aperture, it's certainly what I found with the 22-inch Dob. Larger aperture scopes are far more sensitive to seeing conditions and 4 nights out of 5 there was no point in going beyond low to moderate magnification with it. Still, hazy summer nights are about the best seeing in this area, usually a disaster for dew at dark sky sites, but much less problematic in urban areas. A rare urban advantage. 

 

Bill Barlow might weigh in on typical SCT magnifications in our area. He has been observing with various size SCTs for years, and recently sold his C11 and went with a 9.25, I think. And has also had 8-inch SCTs and has a C6 as well. He was saying 125-250x. I'm guessing many nights the limit is closer to 125x. 

 

I also have the Orion CC8 Cassegrain, which is going to get more outings on the iOptron AZ Tri-pier set up, so it will get in on the side by side fun too. 

 

At any rate, I love the 6SE and the EON 120 both. They will be showing up in my observing reports. (In a supporting role, naturally.  )

Fiske, my experience with the seeing conditions here in KC for SCT's is that I can push the magnifications higher (200X or more) in the late Spring and Summer months when the turbulence aloft is much less due to weaker wind fields.  During the Fall and Winter magnifications typically are less, usually under 200X most nights.  But deep sky objects like galaxies and nebulae don't seem to suffer as much as viewing planets and double stars.

 

Bill

[Fiske]

Fiske, my experience with the seeing conditions here in KC for SCT's is that I can push the magnifications higher (200X or more) in the late Spring and Summer months when the turbulence aloft is much less due to weaker wind fields.  During the Fall and Winter magnifications typically are less, usually under 200X most nights.  But deep sky objects like galaxies and nebulae don't seem to suffer as much as viewing planets and double stars.

 

Bill

Thanks, Bill! 

[Echolight]

Or just use a $7 RJ12 adapter cable from Amazon. 

 

I loved Caddyshack, of course. 

Oh yeah. I must have missed that in your earlier comment.

[Fiske]

With the arrival today of a Baader 2-inch Amici diagonal (clear aperture 1.49 inches) one more hopeful has joined the competition for ideal support telescope, my long neglected Astro-Tech AT-80.

 

 

With the Baader diagonal, the view is correct-image for easy star-hopping. I was concerned that vignetting might be an issue, but discovered the only eyepiece in my collection that would actually vignette is the Nagler 31mm Type 5, which I would never use with it anyway. The only thing remaining is to attach a red-dot finder. (Prusa i3 3D printer standing by.  )

 

I have decided to name the AT-80 in honor of my friend (and 80mm refractor advocate par excellence) Jon Isaacs. And since I already have one instrument named in his honor, my 10.5x70mm Resolux (Big Jon), the AT-80 will henceforth be known as Little Jon.  Jon appreciates a thrifty bargain, but even he would be hard pressed to top the deal I got on the AT-80. Free.  (Okay, the Baader 2-inch Amici diagonal, not so much.)

 

And before anyone asks, my cat's name is Wren. 

Edited by Fiske, 05 January 2024 - 07:11 PM.

[Dale Smith]

Wren looking on is the delightful cherry atop this wonderful sundae of an image