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41 possible new eclipsing binaries : a call for observations

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#1 chrismlt

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 11:26 AM

Hi All,

 

(Please forgive my bad english, and don't hesitate to correct it, if necessary)

 

I'm Christophe, french amateur astronomer, amateur of photometry and variable stars.

I would like to present you a call for observations relative to 41 bright stars that are suspected to be long period binary stars. No eclipse were ever observed/recorded for those stars.
This call was originally  published in french/France a few days ago for the french amateur community, and it would nice if some observers here or there, in Europe, from the opposite part of the pond, or in Asia, would also be interested in it.

 

The periods of the candidates were derived from the GAIA DR3 catalog, and are always in hundreds of days, ranging from 200 days to 400 and more days.
The exact duration of the eclipses and deep are unknown, and have to be caracterized, but some eclipses could last for several dozen of hours.

 

Photometry and spectropscopy :
Time series are generally requested for several weeks around a precise date. Ephemeris will be uploaded here, or could be found on the GeminiPRO-AM website (url provided below, in french).
TriG, TriB, TriR, G, V, R, B and other classic photometric filters can be used.
Spectrocopy is welcome, especially near the eclipses, if they are ever found.

 

The main goal is to find or reject any possibility of eclipse.

 

Each star candidate will be observed spectroscopically with the very high resolution SOPHIE spectrograph at the T193cm of the Observatoire de Haute Provence (OHP) before any publication of ephemeris.

 

You can read the original paper below, by J.-L. Halbwachs et al, Université de Strasbourg, CNRS, Observatoire astronomique de Strasbourg, UMR 7550, F-67000 Strasbourg, France.

 

The first star candidates with an accurate published ephemeris are :

 

- HD29410, to be observed in december 2023, right now, indeed.

- HIP 8342, to be observed in january and feb 2024

 

(Ephemeris below)

 

Observations will have to be send directly to JL  Halbwachs (email adress on the ephemeris paper).

 

We could/should discuss about any observations here, post LC and other aspects of this adventure, if needed ; and alerts, if any, will also be provided here, as well as any follow up.

 

I will try to find those eclipses by myself, altogether with other observers in France (Gemini project), if any, with several optics ranging from 50 to 280 mm in diameter, depending of the circonstances, and a 650D canon DSLR.

 

I hope there will be some interested observers to help finding those new eclipsing binaries.

 

Thank you for reading,
Good skies,
Christophe

 

 

The Gemini Pro-AM website (in french) :

https://proam-gemini...ires-a-eclipse/

 

There is a video conference about the full story (in french).

 

 

The original paper :

 

 

2023sf2a.conf.191H-1.jpg


Edited by chrismlt, 12 December 2023 - 12:01 PM.

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#2 chrismlt

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 11:28 AM

2023sf2a.conf.191H-2.jpg

 

2023sf2a.conf.191H-3.jpg

 

Ephemerides-eclipses_01_en-1.jpg


Edited by chrismlt, 12 December 2023 - 11:31 AM.


#3 chrismlt

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 11:37 AM

The original paper, and the call for observations in pdf format.

 

Attached File  2023sf2a.conf.191H.pdf   283.06KB   17 downloads

 

 

Attached File  Ephemerides-eclipses_01_en.pdf   122.72KB   25 downloads



#4 chrismlt

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 11:51 AM

Well. Last, but not least, I have prepared some observation maps to helf any photometry.

 

Within each map, the large circle is 4 deg in diameter. The smaller one is 1 deg in diameter.

The large rectangle, is about 3x2 deg, that represent about the field of view in an typical APSC DSLR with a 400mm focal lenght.

The smaller rectangle is about 2x1.25 deg, which is the field in an APSC with a 650mm focal lenght.

 

The target (HD29410) is marked with black lines.

 

The possible comps are annoted in red, with names, G mag (from Vizier) and spectral class. Only G and K comps were selected, as HD29410 is a K0 star.

The comps were submitted to the VSX, which did'nt return any known variability.

 

***

 

Please feel free to ask.

Any comments are welcome.

Good skies.

 

See you there ;-)

 

Cheers,

Christophe Marlot

 

 

 

HD29410 rectangle3deg annoteewebsmall.jpg

 

 

HD29410 rectangle2deg annoteewebsmall.jpg


Edited by chrismlt, 12 December 2023 - 12:08 PM.


#5 chrismlt

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 11:53 AM

The maps as a zip file :

 

Attached File  HD29410 maps.zip   421.6KB   3 downloads



#6 GaryShaw

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 03:25 PM

Hi Christophe

 

This sounds extremely interesting and I will be looking into it for sure!

 

I do want to ask though, will you and your colleagues be coordinating this call for new target observations with the AAVSO, which is the primary global repository for gathering, organizing and archiving all observations on variable stars, eclipsing binary stars as well as added data from amateurs for ‘confirmed’ exoplanets?

From an initial reading of the posts above, I am unclear who would be receiving our data on these new targets and how and where would that data be archived, organized and cataloged so that it is made freely-available to all researchers around the world? The data infrastructure for doing all this already exists within the AVAVSO I believe.

 

Anyway, it is great that you are doing this and, once I get time to re-read and more carefully study the information above, I may find my questions are already answered. Thank you very much for this exciting announcement and observational opportunity.

cheers,

Gary



#7 Tapio

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 03:36 PM

Interesting project.
I had exactly same questions in mind as Gary.

#8 yuzameh

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 07:59 PM

Hi All,

 

(Please forgive my bad english, and don't hesitate to correct it, if necessary)

 

I'm Christophe, french amateur astronomer, amateur of photometry and variable stars.

I would like to present you a call for observations relative to 41 bright stars that are suspected to be long period binary stars. No eclipse were ever observed/recorded for those stars.
This call was originally  published in french/France a few days ago for the french amateur community, and it would nice if some observers here or there, in Europe, from the opposite part of the pond, or in Asia, would also be interested in it.

 

The periods of the candidates were derived from the GAIA DR3 catalog, and are always in hundreds of days, ranging from 200 days to 400 and more days.
The exact duration of the eclipses and deep are unknown, and have to be caracterized, but some eclipses could last for several dozen of hours.

 

Photometry and spectropscopy :
Time series are generally requested for several weeks around a precise date. Ephemeris will be uploaded here, or could be found on the GeminiPRO-AM website (url provided below, in french).
TriG, TriB, TriR, G, V, R, B and other classic photometric filters can be used.
Spectrocopy is welcome, especially near the eclipses, if they are ever found.

 

The main goal is to find or reject any possibility of eclipse.

 

Each star candidate will be observed spectroscopically with the very high resolution SOPHIE spectrograph at the T193cm of the Observatoire de Haute Provence (OHP) before any publication of ephemeris.

 

You can read the original paper below, by J.-L. Halbwachs et al, Université de Strasbourg, CNRS, Observatoire astronomique de Strasbourg, UMR 7550, F-67000 Strasbourg, France.

 

The first star candidates with an accurate published ephemeris are :

 

- HD29410, to be observed in december 2023, right now, indeed.

- HIP 8342, to be observed in january and feb 2024

 

(Ephemeris below)

 

Observations will have to be send directly to JL  Halbwachs (email adress on the ephemeris paper).

 

We could/should discuss about any observations here, post LC and other aspects of this adventure, if needed ; and alerts, if any, will also be provided here, as well as any follow up.

 

I will try to find those eclipses by myself, altogether with other observers in France (Gemini project), if any, with several optics ranging from 50 to 280 mm in diameter, depending of the circonstances, and a 650D canon DSLR.

 

I hope there will be some interested observers to help finding those new eclipsing binaries.

 

Thank you for reading,
Good skies,
Christophe

 

 

The Gemini Pro-AM website (in french) :

https://proam-gemini...ires-a-eclipse/

 

There is a video conference about the full story (in french).

 

 

The original paper :

 

 

attachicon.gif 2023sf2a.conf.191H-1.jpg

Vous voudrons parlez avec AFOEV, l'Association Francais pour la Observatione d'Etoiles Variables

 

and if you think your English is bad, you can now see how abysmal my French is.



#9 pvdv

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 10:25 PM

Well, the AFOEV stores its data at Strasbourg's CDS (Simbad, Vizier, Aladin, etc...) and the investigator is at unistra...



#10 chrismlt

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 02:55 AM

Hi Christophe

 

This sounds extremely interesting and I will be looking into it for sure!

 

I do want to ask though, will you and your colleagues be coordinating this call for new target observations with the AAVSO, which is the primary global repository for gathering, organizing and archiving all observations on variable stars, eclipsing binary stars as well as added data from amateurs for ‘confirmed’ exoplanets?

From an initial reading of the posts above, I am unclear who would be receiving our data on these new targets and how and where would that data be archived, organized and cataloged so that it is made freely-available to all researchers around the world? The data infrastructure for doing all this already exists within the AVAVSO I believe.

 

Anyway, it is great that you are doing this and, once I get time to re-read and more carefully study the information above, I may find my questions are already answered. Thank you very much for this exciting announcement and observational opportunity.

cheers,

Gary

Hello Gary, Hi all !

 

Thanks for your nice replies and your possible implication in this project.

 

As an amateur astronomer, I understand your concerns about the data. I had a few exoplanet transits and variable stars / eclipsing binaries observations in the past last ten years, and some occultations before that, dating back to the 2000's, and my habits have always been to share data, of course.

I'm not a "direct" member of AAVSO, but I know it quite, because this were I used to publish most of my data, generally working after published alerts by AAVSO.

I think you're right on this.

 

This will be my first implication in a Gemini Pro-AM project. So I can't tell you much of it, apart from the fact that this is a well know project here, in the french amateur community, and a prestigious organisation in charge of sharing projects between amateurs and pros, like exoplanet transit observations. Very recently, it had the task of beeing interface PRO-AM in the observation of the occultation of Betelgeuse by Leona, with LESIA/Observatoire de Paris. And so on.

 

Sometimes, you have to deal in some very competitive area of science (eg : exoplanets), I think, and some professionnal astronomers don't want data to be publicly available before publication of the paper.

 

I suggested Mr Halbwachs to ask help from AAVSO so as to get the priceless involvment of it's members all over the world, but it declined it for now.

I think data will be available sometimes and somewhere after publication, but I don't know much more about this.

 

Anyway, I can't speak for him, of course, as I'm only an observer sharing an alert.

But the point is that I will send him your questions, and post here his answer asap.

 

Once again,

thank you so much for helping.

Christophe

 

PS : clouded out here, for most of the week. Clear skies.



#11 chrismlt

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 02:56 AM

Well, the AFOEV stores its data at Strasbourg's CDS (Simbad, Vizier, Aladin, etc...) and the investigator is at unistra...

I'm not sure of this, but I think some data from AFOEV are also shared and published by AAVSO.



#12 chrismlt

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 02:57 AM

Vous voudrons parlez avec AFOEV, l'Association Francais pour la Observatione d'Etoiles Variables

 

and if you think your English is bad, you can now see how abysmal my French is.

You're nice, Yuzameh ;-)



#13 yuzameh

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 05:56 PM

I'm not sure of this, but I think some data from AFOEV are also shared and published by AAVSO.

The aavso got quite acquisitive a little while back, part of their we're the global group for amateur variable star ethos they came up with under the director afore the director afore last.  They get BAA, AFOEV, probably HAA, maybe VSOLJ and also RASNZVSS data and bung it in their system.  It is sometimes better to stick to data from one organisation if they have sufficient temporal coverage as this lumping just increases the noise, especially as quite distinct visual estimation techniques are used between groups, and not always the same comparison stars.  Equally it is never clear whether photometric V values are really V, or transformed with a gimmick raw CCD without using any colour term, or whatever, even in each individual survey, least of all when they are lumped together.

 

It'll be interesting if Halbwachs hasn't contacted afoev http://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/afoev/ and data at ftp://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/pub/afoev/ , because his name sounds very Strasbourg-ian, I've noticed a lot of CDS Strasbourg staff for instance have French given names and Germanic family names, no doubt reflecting the history of Alsace. 

 

I'm also assuming he's the same Halbwachs as the famous French astronomer of some long standing and career?  Or is that just coincidence?  I can see why he'd like to keep it to French groups, if they thought it up themselves and have an outreach project in mind.  Maybe he's one of the GAIA teams?  He's had a long standing interesting in astrometry from what I can see, or at least has worked in that area.  A quick check at IAU webpages reveal he was at least based at Strasbourg University a few years ago, and an ADSABS search, and full confirmation comes when I check adsabs.harvard.edu which gives me a paper by him which is the self same paper you've posted above.


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#14 yuzameh

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 05:57 PM

You're nice, Yuzameh ;-)

Actually, Nice is where the observatory is  ; )



#15 GaryShaw

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 06:54 PM

Hi

This is all very interesting and I expect many folks would enjoy contributing to this project - including myself. For such a volunteer effort and collaboration to work we, well I guess I mean ‘I’, would like to hear, from whomever would be the leader/ manager of this project, that the data we all contribute will be publicly-available to any individual or group. 
 

So, it would be very helpful, if not customary, for whomever it is who proposes to receive the observational data from us, to identify themselves and their organization and clarify a bit on how the data will be submitted, organized and maintained and whether the data will be publicly available to anyone in the global community. 
Gary


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#16 chrismlt

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Posted 16 December 2023 - 05:11 AM

Hi

This is all very interesting and I expect many folks would enjoy contributing to this project - including myself. For such a volunteer effort and collaboration to work we, well I guess I mean ‘I’, would like to hear, from whomever would be the leader/ manager of this project, that the data we all contribute will be publicly-available to any individual or group. 
 

So, it would be very helpful, if not customary, for whomever it is who proposes to receive the observational data from us, to identify themselves and their organization and clarify a bit on how the data will be submitted, organized and maintained and whether the data will be publicly available to anyone in the global community. 
Gary

Gary, All,

 

As explained early in this topic, I'm only a variable star and photometry enthousiast, who shared an alert. I'm absolutely no part of the team or staff involved in the original paper, and requesting those observations.

 

You're perfectly right about the final destination of the data, of any data, that should always been puclicly-available.

 

Well, after a couple of silent days, I don't think we will ever receive any official communication from the team resquesting the observations. Which is a pity.

That's it.

 

So, I begun last night to get data about HD29410, after weeks of bad weather. The coming days should be productive. I will send those data to the mentioned email adress. And I will also send a copy to the AAVSO.

 

Maybe, if some observers are interested in this observation, they could do the same ? I don't know. Everybody has to do with his own sensibility.

 

The ephemeris about the 39 next expected eclipsing binaries will be freely available in the Gemini Pro-AM website in the coming months, years.

 

https://proam-gemini...ires-a-eclipse/

 

This is in french, but I suppose an automaded translation, if needed, can be obtained via goog.

 

Also, If I found any eclipse for HD29410, I can send news here, if you think this of any utility.

 

Or, perhaps, is it better to close this topic, as not really appropriate, if nobody is interested ?

Please let me know.

 

Clear skies,

Christophe


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#17 GaryShaw

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Posted 16 December 2023 - 09:28 AM

Hi Christophe

For my own view, I very much appreciate that you brought this interesting observing project to the attention of this forum. I plan to read more of the sources that you reference and try to form an accurate understanding of what is going to be happening. Until I do that, my first impression is that it would take considerable extra effort to participate and make observational contributions.

 

Beyond the language barrier, so far it’s unclear what the observation parameters are. When the AAVSO receives a request for observations from professional astronomer teams, it issues an ‘Alert’ which is a detailed announcement summarizing what the professionals are asking for help with. This Alert also specifies other parameters such as timeframe or specific schedule information, any requirements for specific filters to be used as well as the cadence, or frequency, of observations. Sometimes they present a special Webinar to explain their research goals and discuss any details of the requested observations so that the amateurs are clear on how best to collect the data.
 

Importantly, the researchers ask that the data be submitted to the AAVSO which is where they, and anyone else, will go to download it. The Alert is hosted within the Community Forum of the appropriate observational Section. Questions and conversations regarding the Alert are all hosted within that Forum as well. The AAVSO has also established standard formats for the observation Reports and provides ‘macros’ that automatically convert observers’ data into the correct report format. All of the above ensures that the professionals get the data they need and that we in the amateur community that contribute that data, can submit it in via an efficient and semi-automated process.
 

Without a clear structure for the involvement of the amateur community, it’s a bit hard for me to envision a process for the time-efficient participation in the project you’ve outlined. Id enjoy reading posts on your involvement in the project.

cheers,

Gary


Edited by GaryShaw, 16 December 2023 - 09:31 AM.


#18 yuzameh

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Posted 16 December 2023 - 09:46 PM

Despite my tone in emails sometimes, ie somewhat weighted with my subjective spin, in essence I state what effectively occurred/s.

 

I think AAVSO forgets that once upon a time it was like pulling teeth getting data out of them and incredibly difficult getting to publish a paper using their data without Janet being listed as a co-author, rather than just referencing and/or acknowledging the organisational source.

 

Times change of course.

 

I think probably if Halbwachs wanted it to remain Francophone, for despite him having published there are still such things as proprietary periods for professionals involved with data processing from big surveys (I instantly noted that there is no catalogue of the full 41 objects mentioned anywhere, or available that I can find because I searched for said) you probably shouldn't have mentioned it on an Anglophone discussion board (or whatever they are called nowadays).

 

It's not always clear how public a pro-am proposed collaboration is, they do tend to like some assurance of correctly transformed photometry and readily handled provenance.


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#19 robin_astro

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Posted 17 December 2023 - 11:17 AM

If I had limited my astronomical spectroscopy collaborations by language or borders, I would not have got very far !  Looking at this project where the potential eclipses of the first two candidates are 14 and 22 hours long I would say it would be useful to have a good geographical spread of observers and a fast alert system to have the best chance of success so I would be calling for observations from as wide a field as possible. (The question about confidentially is moot since they have published the details of the upcoming targets and  the approximate ephemeris on a public website making it a personal choice as to whether to make the data public or even cooperate with the team.)

 

Cheers

Robin


Edited by robin_astro, 17 December 2023 - 11:17 AM.

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#20 chrismlt

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Posted 19 December 2023 - 03:02 AM

Hello all,

 

I received a private email this morning : It seems there was a begining of eclipse observed by a french observer over the night december 17-18, which need confirmation.

 

Indeed, I had a drop, going from 7.30 to 7.40 in G band over the same night, but the conditions were very rough : low fog, and the lens of the refractor was frozen, so I could'nt be sure.

 

 

Edit (six hours later) : possibly a false alarm ; now waiting for confirmation - or not - by other observers.

 

 

 

Clear skies,

Christophe


Edited by chrismlt, 19 December 2023 - 09:00 AM.


#21 chrismlt

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Posted 02 March 2024 - 02:30 AM

Dear all,

 

Just a few words about the end of this story.

 

Yeah, you were badly right, guys. A few days after my last message here, I was told it was strictly forbidden to share anything anywhere about this confidential campaign, and that observers from "outside" where no longer expected, or wanted.

 

So, I stopped immediately any collaboration with this team, as I'm considering sharing material and experiences as fundamental in astronomy. And, consequently, discarded 8 or 9 full nights of observations.

 

As far as I know, (but this is confidential, and for your eyes only   ;-) I might put in jail ...), there was no eclipse seen for the first star, and the probability of eclise for the second star was recalculated following questionning from observers, and dropped to a ridiculous proportion, I can't remember the exact %.

 

Well, in january and feb, I returned to AAVSO campaigns (31 Cyg eclipse) and to observing T CrB.

February was terrible here : only 7 morning observations.

 

Clear skies.

Cheers,

Christophe


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#22 chrismlt

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Posted 02 March 2024 - 02:36 AM

If I had limited my astronomical spectroscopy collaborations by language or borders, I would not have got very far !  Looking at this project where the potential eclipses of the first two candidates are 14 and 22 hours long I would say it would be useful to have a good geographical spread of observers and a fast alert system to have the best chance of success so I would be calling for observations from as wide a field as possible. (The question about confidentially is moot since they have published the details of the upcoming targets and  the approximate ephemeris on a public website making it a personal choice as to whether to make the data public or even cooperate with the team.)

 

Cheers

Robin

In fact, Robin, that's what I was thinking, and  the origin of my calling here.

 

The irony in this story is that the 14 and 22 hours eclipse long were apparently arbitrarily choosen. Asked about this, the team answered that the eclipse could also be far less longuer than this.

 

Well well well.

 

;-)

 

Christophe



#23 Fabricius

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Posted 02 March 2024 - 04:11 AM


Well, in january and feb, I returned to AAVSO campaigns (31 Cyg eclipse) and to observing T CrB.
 

Indeed, I think you would be better off to focus your efforts on 31 Cyg and T CrB.

 

I analysed long-term photometry of HD 29410 and HIP 8342 by automated surveys ASAS (2001-2009) and KWS (Kamogata/Kiso/Kyoto Wide-field Survey, 2010-2024).

Both stars appear to be constant.

If they are variable, the amplitude must be low (< 0.1m) or the period must be close to 365 days (annual observation gap of the surveys).



#24 pbealo

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Posted 02 March 2024 - 09:11 AM



yuzameh

 

"I think AAVSO forgets that once upon a time it was like pulling teeth getting data out of them and incredibly difficult getting to publish a paper using their data without Janet being listed as a co-author, rather than just referencing and/or acknowledging the organisational source.

 

Times change of course."


yuzameh

 

While I knew Janet Mattei from her association with the ATMs of Boston, I was not actually involved with AAVSO until 2018ish, so can't speak of her policies, etc 20+ years ago. The internet barely existed!

 

But I can categorically state that since I have been involved AAVSO database data is freely available from the AAVSO website to anyone and everyone who wishes to use it. No membership requirements. No "demand" for attribution, etc. We do encourage users of this data (I can't call it "our data", we didn't generate it all, we merely store it and make it available) to acknowledge the source of this data in any papers, presentations, etc. I think that's only fair. Because of some data I submitted to the database I, and several other AAVSO observers, were listed as  coauthors on one paper from Prof Bellim.of U of Washington, something I did not request, but was happy when Prof Bellim contacted me! And if he made requests for data on other stars I would jump right on it!

 

As an organization, we encourage pro-am collaboration, publishing many campaigns and alerts at the behest of the professional community to encourage amateur observers to contribute data. I'm hosting a 3 hour session at Stellafane this year on pro-am collaboration and photometry.

 

It seems to me that AAVSO is a changing organization with the exciting new leadership of Dr Brian Kloppenborg. I know I enjoy working with him.

 

We would welcome you back with open arms.

 

Clear Skies,

Peter Bealo

BPEC

AAVSO Board member, observer and I&E Section Lead


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#25 robin_astro

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Posted 02 March 2024 - 09:17 AM

In my view  GEMINI would do better to be more open and research what is already going beyond their "bubble". For example one of their project teams claim that 

 

"We have just launched the manufacturing of two prototypes relying on existing
spectrograph. On the Alpy 600 we replace the grism for a transmission blazed grating
of 200 grooves per millimeter, giving an Alpy 200."

 

https://sf2a.eu/proc...a.conf.199M.pdf

 

Whereas regulars here and elsewhere will know that I first developed the ALPY200 ten years ago now and have been using it since then to do exactly the type of work they are planning. To make such statements without acknowledging the original developer is unacceptable in my view.

 

Cheers

Robin


Edited by robin_astro, 02 March 2024 - 09:18 AM.

  • pbealo, RobboK, PartlyCloudy and 1 other like this


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