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Unfortunately low ISO and short exposures doesn't fix the ring issue with the D5600

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#1 unimatrix0

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Posted 18 December 2023 - 03:28 PM

I recently shot the Andromeda galaxy with my full spectrum Nikon D5600 which turned out to be ok, although it was more of a test. 

 

Since there is that concentric ring issue with the Nikon cameras (some claim they do not, but they do), Mark recommended me to try the lowest ISO and use shorter subs. 

 

Well, it worked for the Andromeda Galaxy, but appearently doesn't work for the Pleidaes .   I start to see a pattern, where brighter objects will cause the Nikon sensor (or internal processing) to create those ring defects in the images. 

 

And no, the image is not overstretched or calibrated badly. The rings are there int he subs. 

 

I am trying to figure out whether the choice of a telescope (Newtonian vs refactor) also matters, but since I do not get rings using a 533mm or even my Pentax K70 DSLR using a Newtonian, I doubt the choice of the telescope matters. 

 

So, I'm sure more tolerant people wouldn't care, but I just cannot unsee it, once I see it. 

 

I'm just not sure if I should keep using this camera. I bought it relatively cheap as used ($250), to get an APS-C sized sensor in my arsenal. 

 

BUT

I get rings if it's a short exposure and low ISO as well as longer exposure with higher ISO and the mix of those.  It just doesn't matter what I set it to, the rings will make an appearance. 

I used ISO100 and 20 second subs for this: 

Here is with moderate stretch
med_gallery_355785_16988_1336808.jpg

 

 

to demonstrate the ring I over stretched it

med_gallery_355785_16988_5532510.jpg

 

 

I wish there would be a "ring remover" script in Pixinsight, lol! 

Just like there is Canon banding removal script. 
 


Edited by unimatrix0, 18 December 2023 - 03:31 PM.


#2 zakry3323

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Posted 18 December 2023 - 03:31 PM

I don't think it matters what kind of OTA you use, I had the same issue with a rather elderly Canon digital SLR and an Orion ED80 several years ago. 



#3 KuiperBeltKing

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Posted 18 December 2023 - 03:54 PM

Hmm, color rings, eh? I had really bad ones with my Sony a7 IV but I blamed them on the lens that I used. The possibility that this was caused by the camera itself never occurred to me.   



#4 unimatrix0

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Posted 18 December 2023 - 10:17 PM

Hmm, color rings, eh? I had really bad ones with my Sony a7 IV but I blamed them on the lens that I used. The possibility that this was caused by the camera itself never occurred to me.   

SharkMelley has a whole thread about which cameras have concentric rings. The usual recommendation is to use low ISO with the Nikon and short exposures, but unfortunately that only worked like once. It seems like brighter objects causing more issues.  On the other hand I really don't want to shoot 2000 subs with 10 second each, if that's the solution. 

 

https://www.cloudyni...ncentric-rings/



#5 sharkmelley

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Posted 19 December 2023 - 12:26 AM

Mark recommended me to try the lowest ISO and use shorter subs. 

 

Well, it worked for the Andromeda Galaxy, but appearently doesn't work for the Pleidaes . 

Upload one of your Pleiades flats and one of your Pleiades lights to a file-sharing site and I'll take a look.

 

 

Hmm, color rings, eh? I had really bad ones with my Sony a7 IV but I blamed them on the lens that I used. The possibility that this was caused by the camera itself never occurred to me.   

Are they circular or are they polygon-shaped?  In any case, make sure you turn off all lens corrections.

 

Mark



#6 Devonshire

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Posted 19 December 2023 - 09:01 AM

I've seen threads like this come up from time to time on the D5xxx's, but I've had no trouble with my D5300a @ ISO200, for multi-minute exposures. 

 

I will say that I am almost always shooting barely-visible nebulas filtered, so my histogram is well to the left.  I think Mark's asking a good question, asking for a look at both Lights AND Flats.


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#7 Tribe_Of_Dan

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 06:31 AM

Is not this the kind of thing that can be solved by flats, darks and biases?



#8 sharkmelley

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 06:55 AM

Is not this the kind of thing that can be solved by flats, darks and biases?

Darks, flats and biases will not solve the problem of rings that are "baked" into the raw data by in-camera processing

 

See the following pages for more information:


Edited by sharkmelley, 20 December 2023 - 06:57 AM.

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#9 Devonshire

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 09:25 AM

Mark,

 

Your links were a very interesting read.  Thank you for the work you invested in those pages.



#10 asanmax

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 04:15 PM

I recently shot the Andromeda galaxy with my full spectrum Nikon D5600 which turned out to be ok, although it was more of a test. 

 

Since there is that concentric ring issue with the Nikon cameras (some claim they do not, but they do), Mark recommended me to try the lowest ISO and use shorter subs. 

 

Well, it worked for the Andromeda Galaxy, but appearently doesn't work for the Pleidaes .   I start to see a pattern, where brighter objects will cause the Nikon sensor (or internal processing) to create those ring defects in the images. 

 

And no, the image is not overstretched or calibrated badly. The rings are there int he subs. 

 

I am trying to figure out whether the choice of a telescope (Newtonian vs refactor) also matters, but since I do not get rings using a 533mm or even my Pentax K70 DSLR using a Newtonian, I doubt the choice of the telescope matters. 

 

So, I'm sure more tolerant people wouldn't care, but I just cannot unsee it, once I see it. 

 

I'm just not sure if I should keep using this camera. I bought it relatively cheap as used ($250), to get an APS-C sized sensor in my arsenal. 

 

BUT

I get rings if it's a short exposure and low ISO as well as longer exposure with higher ISO and the mix of those.  It just doesn't matter what I set it to, the rings will make an appearance. 

I used ISO100 and 20 second subs for this: 

Here is with moderate stretch

 

 

to demonstrate the ring I over stretched it

med_gallery_355785_16988_5532510.jpg

 

 

I wish there would be a "ring remover" script in Pixinsight, lol! 

Just like there is Canon banding removal script. 
 

The rings in your image look like normal artifacts when using a Newtonian telescope. Those are sometimes not easy to calibrate out using flat frames. A bit of Photoshop magic usually helps.

Did you use a Newt to shoot the lights?

I guess I'm one of those who claim that they have never seen rings in their images. I'm on my sixth D5300 and have never seen the notorious rings in my images. Perhaps I'm just lucky smile.gif



#11 vidrazor

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 07:14 PM

Not exactly proper protocol I suppose, but when you have lemons, you can make lemonade. smile.gif

 

I separated the stars and nebulosity with Starnet, then used color and luminosity adjustment layers in Photoshop to eliminate the color cast and even out the luminosity, then recombined the stars and luminosity.

 

Not the best way to go about this I suppose, but it does improve the beast. smile.gif

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#12 sharkmelley

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 06:50 PM

The rings in your image look like normal artifacts when using a Newtonian telescope. 

Why would the rings from a Newtonian telescope be coloured?



#13 asanmax

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 09:53 PM

Why would the rings from a Newtonian telescope be coloured?

Are they? I didn't download the image to have a closer look.



#14 Spaceman 56

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 03:04 AM

I guess I'm one of those who claim that they have never seen rings in their images. I'm on my sixth D5300 and have never seen the notorious rings in my images. Perhaps I'm just lucky smile.gif

I have also never seen any rings from my D5600 images.

 

seems good down here. smile.gif



#15 unimatrix0

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 10:17 AM

Why would the rings from a Newtonian telescope be coloured?

The rings also appear on a refractor telescope too. I just know, because I use 2 other cooled cameras and there are no rings, regardless which telescope used.  I also tried my Pentax K70 and there is no ring, regardless of telescope. 

Rings only show up with the Nikon D5600


Edited by unimatrix0, 11 January 2024 - 10:17 AM.


#16 unimatrix0

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 10:24 AM

Here is a sample of lights, flats biases

https://drive.google...ZhD?usp=sharing



#17 unimatrix0

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 10:34 AM

Here is the same scope with the QHY183C camera. I had no rings. Granted, I used a different coma corrector, but I get rings with either of my CCs and using the Nikon. As I said, it's not the scope or other parts of the rig, but we got people who want to blame the telescope, regardless of all the evidence regarding color rings with Nikon D+ brands. 

https://drive.google...?usp=drive_link

 

 

(below the final image from the QHY183C, which was just a qucik tes of 1.5 hrs or so) no sign of rings (same scope). 

 

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Edited by unimatrix0, 11 January 2024 - 10:42 AM.


#18 sharkmelley

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 12:56 PM

Here is the same scope with the QHY183C camera. I had no rings.

It would be useful to see a raw light and raw flat from the Nikon D5600.



#19 unimatrix0

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 02:07 PM

It would be useful to see a raw light and raw flat from the Nikon D5600.

I posted it above. It was taken with Ekos/Stellarmate, which saves in .fits format even for the DSLRs. 


Edited by unimatrix0, 11 January 2024 - 02:07 PM.


#20 sharkmelley

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 02:56 PM

I posted it above. It was taken with Ekos/Stellarmate, which saves in .fits format even for the DSLRs. 

Thanks.

 

Here's the analysis of the light and flat, where I divide the (bias subtracted) red and blue channels by the (bias subtracted) green channel, then stretch.

 

unimatrix0_M45.JPG

 

You'll notice that the light is perfect with no hint of rings.  This is because you kept the signal level low as I suggested.

Unfortunately, the signal level in the flat was far too high.  In the red channel this triggered the rings caused by Nikon's faulty lossy compression and in the blue channel it triggered the rings caused by Nikon's hardcoded (colour shading) correction.

 

Mark


Edited by sharkmelley, 11 January 2024 - 02:57 PM.

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#21 deansjc

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Posted 20 February 2024 - 09:00 AM

I recall on this thread that one or more people had been in touch with Nikon on this matter.  I don't recall any feedback from Nikon being posted here.

 

Was there any feedback from Nikon.  (I ask not wishing to discuss how useful this might be in the end; I'm just curious as to response received, if any.)

 

Thanks.



#22 Ron359

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Posted 20 February 2024 - 11:56 AM

Thanks.

 

Here's the analysis of the light and flat, where I divide the (bias subtracted) red and blue channels by the (bias subtracted) green channel, then stretch.

 

attachicon.gif unimatrix0_M45.JPG

 

You'll notice that the light is perfect with no hint of rings.  This is because you kept the signal level low as I suggested.

Unfortunately, the signal level in the flat was far too high.  In the red channel this triggered the rings caused by Nikon's faulty lossy compression and in the blue channel it triggered the rings caused by Nikon's hardcoded (colour shading) correction.

 

Mark

Then the obvious  deduction is that  the rings are created by bad flats.  A very common problem for 'amateur astrophotographers' images.   To blame the camera maker for making a bad camera not designed for astro imaging is clearly bogus and misleading.   If they chose to pay attention to you or others complaints like this to them, and reply to your 'findings', Nikon could sue you for slander & libel  and you'd lose in a heartbeat.  You're lucky that Its a waste of their time to reply to these bogus conclusions.  

 

In short,  what you call a fault is 'not a bug, but a feature.'   Even likely its patented.  


Edited by Ron359, 20 February 2024 - 12:10 PM.


#23 vidrazor

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Posted 20 February 2024 - 12:08 PM

Then the obvious  deduction is that  the rings are created by bad flats.  A very common problem for 'amateur astrophotographers' images.   To blame the camera maker for making a bad camera not designed for astro imaging is clearly bogus and misleading.   If they chose to pay attention to you or others complaints like this to them, and reply to your 'findings', Nikon could sue you for slander & libel  and you'd lose in a heartbeat.  You're lucky that Its a waste of their time to reply to these bogus conclusions.  

It would be foolish to believe this isn't a problem with Nikon cameras simply because of this instance.

 

Nikon not responding about this issue isn't surprising either, they never responded about the D600 issue until lawsuit were levied against them.

 

So if anything they're lucky frustrated astrophotographers haven't levied a lawsuit against them for staying quiet on the issue. ;)



#24 Ron359

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Posted 20 February 2024 - 12:34 PM

It would be foolish to believe this isn't a problem with Nikon cameras simply because of this instance.

 

Nikon not responding about this issue isn't surprising either, they never responded about the D600 issue until lawsuit were levied against them.

 

So if anything they're lucky frustrated astrophotographers haven't levied a lawsuit against them for staying quiet on the issue. wink.gif

From what I read, the Nikon D600 suit had nothing to do with astro imaging or even lossy image compression of raw files.   It had everything to do with defective sensors affecting the majority of consumer daylight photographers D600 images.  BTW I gave up 30 yrs of using Nikons for Canon many years ago, so I don't follow them much. But I see many good ring free astro photos from them as well as many from Canons.   

 

 (quote:  "In what has become quite the thorn in Nikon’s side, owners of the defective, oil spotty, sensor dust filled Nikon D600 have gotten a settlement from one of the class action lawsuit filed earlier this year."

 

But Good luck if you mange to bring a suit for so-called faulty compression rings that appear in some tiny few astro-images processed with bad flats.  

 

https://www.hanley-l...egative reviews.


Edited by Ron359, 20 February 2024 - 12:47 PM.


#25 vidrazor

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Posted 20 February 2024 - 01:26 PM

From what I read, the Nikon D600 suit had nothing to do with astro imaging or even lossy image compression of raw files.   It had everything to do with defective sensors affecting the majority of consumer daylight photographers D600 images.  BTW I gave up 30 yrs of using Nikons for Canon many years ago, so I don't follow them much. But I see many good ring free astro photos from them as well as many from Canons.   

 (quote:  "In what has become quite the thorn in Nikon’s side, owners of the defective, oil spotty, sensor dust filled Nikon D600 have gotten a settlement from one of the class action lawsuit filed earlier this year."

But Good luck if you mange to bring a suit for so-called faulty compression rings that appear in some tiny few astro-images processed with bad flats.  

https://www.hanley-l...egative reviews.

You obviously missed my point.
 


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