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Vintage and Classic Binoculars discussion part III

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#6526 MisterDan

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 11:41 AM

 I thought PROMINAR was the trademark for their proprietary lab-grown flourite crystal lenses, which would not be BaK4 ?
 

Kowa's "Prominar" trademark dates back to the mid-'50s and is not directly associated with Fluorite in any form (be it lab grown or harvested).  "Prominar", for lack of a better definition, simply means "premium" and/or "our best":  fit & finish, precision, fidelity, clarity, design, workmanship, technology, et.al.

 

Over the decades, it has applied to Kowa binoculars, spotting scopes, photography/cine lenses, and other optical instruments.  Kowa even tagged their old (we're talking ~70 years ago) 2x20 opera glass with the "Prominar" name.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304922832829

 

Currently, some of Kowa's Prominar products do indeed utilize their lab-grown Fluorite lenses, but many of their other products (cine, photography, & a/v lenses) do not and are Fluorite free.

 

Kowa's BD56-XD binocular is a Prominar product but does not utilize lab-grown Fluorite lenses.

 

Best wishes.

Dan


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#6527 semlin

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 11:42 AM

on the skinny blade screwdriver hunt, i found that the old-fashioned chrome body black shaft screwdrivers do have very skinny blades.

 

they are exceedingly cheap on amazon.

https://www.amazon.c.../dp/B07PV5D3VV/



#6528 MisterDan

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 12:16 PM

Huh?  what's an "achromat" and what shape is it ?

Many optical instrument trademarks/logos incorporate a stylized cross-section of an achromat (or - technically - a two-element objective, be it achromat, apochromat, or neither).  It's typically utilized as a "frame" or outline for brand/model/line names ("SILVAMAR", "GLORY", etc.), optical configurations (e.g. "8x30", "7 X 50", etc.)., and/or manufacturing locations (e.g. "JAPAN", "TOKYO", "JENA", et.al). The Bushnell and Carl Zeiss logos are two of the best known "achromat  frames".

 

Here are a few of the hundreds:

 

FPO_logo.png    Kuroki_logo.png    Kyowa_logo.png

 

SOC_logo.png    Tor_logo.png    Wuest_G_logo.jpg

 

"Stylized" is the key word, here.  Some "achromat frames" are so stylized, they're not immediately recognizable as cross-sectioned achromats.

 

Best wishes.

Dan


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#6529 jarrodeu

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 01:21 PM

Did early coatings do any color correction for better color rendition?  If not when did they begin doing color correction?
 

Good question, I have no idea. Maybe someone else here knows?

 

Jarrod



#6530 LoveWillSteerTheStars

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 10:53 PM

Came across a very nice pair of Sears red stripe 7x35 EWA No.6271 (J-E83 / J-B46) recently and thought I'd share.

Anyone know if that red stripe is unique to the 6271, or common to various Discoverer models?  I have one that is missing the beauty rings so not sure what model number I have.
 



#6531 LoveWillSteerTheStars

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 10:57 PM

Thanks for the feedback, semlin!

 

You're right, they appear to be marked J-E83, not J-B83. Corrected my original post. The light plays tricks on my eyes, as the stamp is partially obstructed by the focusing wheel.

You can whiten stampings with toothpaste or wetted baking soda.  Or permanently with an oil paint touchup stick -- heat the metal then rub the stick to fill, and wipe off the excess.
 


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#6532 LoveWillSteerTheStars

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 11:08 PM

an achromat- the lens

 

https://en.wikipedia...Achromatic_lens

I don't see any resemblance to those cartouches (with E or G, some posts above).  you outlined one in yellow...



#6533 Bdhester123

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 12:23 AM

Anyone know if that red stripe is unique to the 6271, or common to various Discoverer models?  I have one that is missing the beauty rings so not sure what model number I have.
 

 

yes i think thats correct, the 6266(black), 6271(red), 6291(blue? w/ compass). they are all essentially the same as far as i know, some are pretty solid, a budget rangemaster clone i guess   



#6534 LoveWillSteerTheStars

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 01:31 AM

 

Anyone know if that red stripe is unique to the 6271, or common to various Discoverer models?  I have one that is missing the beauty rings so not sure what model number I have.
 

 

yes i think thats correct, the 6266(black), 6271(red), 6291(blue? w/ compass). they are all essentially the same as far as i know, some are pretty solid, a budget rangemaster clone i guess  

Sears Discoverer 10x50 model 6293 Extra Wide Angle. Blue Stripe, compass in the front hinge cover.

 

Do Discoverers have eccentrics for collimation or what?



#6535 Senex Bibax

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 09:55 AM

Sears Discoverer 10x50 model 6293 Extra Wide Angle. Blue Stripe, compass in the front hinge cover.

Why did this remind me of A Christmas Story?   "A Red Ryder Sure Shot Double Action BB Gun with a compass in the stock!"


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#6536 Ancient Mariner

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 10:03 AM

Did early coatings do any color correction for better color rendition?  If not when did they begin doing color correction?
 

I think most manufacturers in WWII concentrated on single coatings which reflected blue, therefore the binocular transmitted a slightly warmer colour of light. Soon after the war it was the camera lens manufacturers who began to coat various elements in the same lens with amber, blue and purple in order to gain a more neutral rendition, particularly with the use of reversal film. This technology filtered through into binoculars, and definitely by the 60s some makers were using a combination of amber coated lenses and blue coated prisms to gain a more balanced hue. Even after all these years, and with the advent of multicoatings, some manufacturers are unable to provide a completely neutral colour transmission - as can be seen in various reviews on Cloudy Nights.


Edited by Ancient Mariner, 13 February 2025 - 10:12 AM.

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#6537 MisterDan

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 10:23 AM

Why did this remind me of A Christmas Story?   "A Red Ryder Sure Shot Double Action BB Gun with a compass in the stock!"

I bet Miss Shields would scrooge about a Sears Discoverer, too.

"It has terrible eye relief!  C+ "

grin.gif


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#6538 Eric Drum

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 11:44 AM

It looks like center focus was available a little earlier for these B&L=Zeiss than it was for the standard Zeiss. I believe Zeiss didn’t offer it until around 1910? No case, but objective covers on mine.

I beieve Zeiss didn't make a "centre-focus Feldstecher", with hinge arm frames attached to the tubes with 5 screws each side. It came in later with one-piece castings for tube-and-arms.
 
Spindler (& Hoyer) made one, but lacking a license for 'stereoscopic' wide-objectives, they were dumped anonymously with a pawnbroker in London.

Ironically, I found this gun-dealer and pawnbroker's name on a center-focus Feldstecher I bought recently! Apparently made by Spindler (& Hoyer) ... I should probably start another thread for that ?

 
Center focus Feldstecher

 
Moritz Hendsoldt, Wetzlar also made one. I think they were sued, and eventually licenced by Zeiss.



 
The center-focus wheel explains Bausch & Lomb hinge arms not being right at the back: I thought it was nose-clearance!

Another thread here about a French-looking 'Zeiss Telonar' with center focus ...
 
I found it because there is currently an implausible 'VINTAGE MILITARY CARL ZEISS M-G' 12x40 (allegedly) on that auction site. MG on French binoculars usually means Ministère de la Guerre.
 
There is also a thread about (not a fake but) a licensed Bausch & Lomb Zeiss Stereo Field Glass.
Is it just me, or does it look like it was dismantled, but reassembled with the body back-to-front? Weird!
(The Inter Pupillary Distance click adjustment button is awkwardly between the eyepieces.)

Contrast FrankL's normal front-to-front version

 

40686550532_f116c22ba0_4k.jpg
 

Bausch & Lomb Optical Co., Zeiss Stereo Field Glass 8x20 (View 1) by Frank, on Flickr.
I haven't noticed the axle being shorter than the bridge-frames on a real Zeiss, but haven't checked them all. Presumably it is done for extra 'nose-relief'?

 

Does anyone know if Zeiss made an over-and-under prismatic glass?

 

Many other makers did, presumably to avoid the Zeiss patent until it expired in 1908.

I think this is another 'fake Zeiss':

I guess the soldiers that asked the engraver for "9. Landwehr Division Deutsches Kaiserreich" on the left said "Put 'Carl Zeiss Jena D.R.P.' " on the right!". An expenses fiddle?

 

S l1600 (19) 01
 
Manufacturer names link to sources.

Edited by Eric Drum, 13 February 2025 - 01:08 PM.

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#6539 semlin

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 12:17 PM

I think most manufacturers in WWII concentrated on single coatings which reflected blue, therefore the binocular transmitted a slightly warmer colour of light. Soon after the war it was the camera lens manufacturers who began to coat various elements in the same lens with amber, blue and purple in order to gain a more neutral rendition, particularly with the use of reversal film. This technology filtered through into binoculars, and definitely by the 60s some makers were using a combination of amber coated lenses and blue coated prisms to gain a more balanced hue. Even after all these years, and with the advent of multicoatings, some manufacturers are unable to provide a completely neutral colour transmission - as can be seen in various reviews on Cloudy Nights.

i collect old camera lenses which i shoot with modern digital cameras.  the camera industry transition to modern multicoating happened during the 1970s.  pentax super multi coating was introduced in 1971 and involved 7 coatings per element and also a new application process that made multicoating less delicate.  that's kind of the dawn of modern multi-coating although anbitious lens makers going back to the 1950s were multicoating on a less ambitious scale.

 

its primary benefit was eliminating lens flare, ghosting and chromatic aberration and false colour and increasing light transmission efficiency.  it was also colour balanced but it took until the 1980s for that to really dial in.  basically, i am interested in lenses before 1980 and especially before 1970 in significant part because they are not multicoated and colour balanced so the varying colour cast gives images from each lens its own feel.

 

i have no clear idea how that translates for binoculars.  i believe zeiss was experimenting with multi-coating in ww2 and they were certainly varying the coating on different lens elements.  i would also infer nikon was up to something early on based on the unusual coatings of my early nkk binoculars, and certainly asahi pentax tried something with its proprietary amber coated binos in the eartly 1960s which resemble the coatings on their camera lenses of the time which were double coated.

 

while we are discussing this, the technical leap forward in coatings in ww2 was not the mgfl coatings themselves, the benefits of which were known sometime earlier, but an application method to make the coatings durable and not just rub off in field conditions.  they figured out how to bond a coating to glass but it then took a while to figure out how to make the coatings adhere to each other.


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#6540 semlin

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 05:36 PM

here's an old us patent case about the wartime binocular lens coating that describes the coating process.  

https://casetext.com...lomb-optical-co

"The military services, and particularly the Navy, were particularly anxious to find a practical way of coating binoculars, periscopes and other "light-transmitting" glass surfaces, which should make the film at once tenacious and viable. Indeed, some of the testimony imputes to the services a scarcely understandable estimate of the importance of such a coating. The trouble had been that all the earlier coatings, though their proper composition was known, could be readily scratched or even rubbed off."


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#6541 brentwood

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Posted 13 February 2025 - 11:01 PM

on the skinny blade screwdriver hunt, i found that the old-fashioned chrome body black shaft screwdrivers do have very skinny blades.

 

they are exceedingly cheap on amazon.

https://www.amazon.c.../dp/B07PV5D3VV/

That is what I am trying to us to get that tiny grub screw out of my Deltarem. They do fit in but the shaft is too small to put much torque on. 



#6542 LoveWillSteerTheStars

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 03:09 AM

Many optical instrument trademarks/logos incorporate a stylized cross-section of an achromat (or - technically - a two-element objective, be it achromat, apochromat, or neither).  It's typically utilized as a "frame" or outline for brand/model/line names ...

"Stylized" is the key word, here.  Some "achromat frames" are so stylized, they're not immediately recognizable as cross-sectioned achromats.

Thanks.  Some I have seen - not those you linked - look more like a double sided razor blade to me.
 



#6543 LoveWillSteerTheStars

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 03:18 AM

on the skinny blade screwdriver hunt, i found that the old-fashioned chrome body black shaft screwdrivers do have very skinny blades.

 

they are exceedingly cheap on amazon.

https://www.amazon.c.../dp/B07PV5D3VV/

In my experience the tiny width are skinny, but the binocular screws may need a 3-4mm wide blade, and those are too thick.



#6544 LoveWillSteerTheStars

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 03:58 AM

here's an old us patent case about the wartime binocular lens coating that describes the coating process.  

https://casetext.com...lomb-optical-co

"The military services, and particularly the Navy, were particularly anxious to find a practical way of coating binoculars, periscopes and other "light-transmitting" glass surfaces, which should make the film at once tenacious and viable. Indeed, some of the testimony imputes to the services a scarcely understandable estimate of the importance of such a coating. The trouble had been that all the earlier coatings, though their proper composition was known, could be readily scratched or even rubbed off."

Such refs are very interesting.  Further on, it says the process was brought to the Naval Gun Factory in 1941:

>>

There remains only one other point of enough importance to demand discussion: i.e. whether what Lyon had done before November 17, 1941, — a year before his filing date — forfeited his right to a patent under § 102(b) of the Act: that is, whether he had put it in "public use or on sale in this country, more than one year prior to the date of application".

 

Lyon began to work for the Naval Research Laboratory in January, 1941, trying to find an effective coating. By the middle of June, 1941, he was assured that he "had consistent results as far as hardness and adherence of the film was concerned." He "appeared to be on the right track"; but much testing had still to be done. Nevertheless, "by the first of July" he "was reasonably certain that" he "was getting a hard durable film * * remarkably consistent in the results." "Many, many tests were made," which, however, by September, 1941 had convinced him "that we were in a position to try this thing out on some actual simple instruments." There were a number of old binoculars, which were given to him to coat and it was arranged that these should be introduced surreptitiously, so that the users would not know which had been coated by the new process and which had not.

 

From binoculars he went to other instruments, so that by October first the "Optical Shop of the Naval Gun Factory" had "completed certain experimental work," and "estimated that $10,000" was "required to provide for equipment and further research."

 

The "experimental work" had "developed to such a stage as to place the product in production." The officer in charge concluded the letter from which we quote by requesting that the Bureau of Ordnance should approve a "project" for $20,000 both for "production equipment in the shop" and for five units for "repair activities afloat." Such an approval was issued on October 30; but it is to the last degree unlikely that any production should have taken place within three weeks, that was not part of the "further research" deemed necessary on October 1st. At any rate it is clear that the defendant, which had the burden, did not prove its defence. Its theory is that, if with Lyon's consent the Navy exploited the process, it was the same as though he had done so himself; indeed in the end the Navy's exploitation would be far more profitable to him than any sales that he could personally make. It is not necessary to pass upon the legal validity of that interpretation of § 102(b), because, though we should accept it arguendo, it was not proved, as we have just said.

>>


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#6545 Ancient Mariner

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 04:35 AM

Were the US anti reflection coatings always magnesium fluoride right from the beginning? Zeiss WWII binoculars had softer cryolite coatings and I am not sure whether they changed to magnesium fluoride during or after the war. There are a few examples of Busch (a Jena subsidiary) flak binoculars which are said to be multi coated. The same red-orange coating was used on some u boat "fat boy" binoculars by Zeiss. I have not seen as many examples of Leitz WWII binoculars with coatings, so I presume the technology came later to Leitz. One Leitz 7x50 example that I serviced had very soft coatings which I think were cryolite.



#6546 Eric Drum

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 09:57 AM

Were the US anti reflection coatings always magnesium fluoride right from the beginning? Zeiss WWII binoculars had softer cryolite coatings and I am not sure whether they changed to magnesium fluoride during or after the war. There are a few examples of Busch (a Jena subsidiary) flak binoculars which are said to be multi coated. The same red-orange coating was used on some u boat "fat boy" binoculars by Zeiss. I have not seen as many examples of Leitz WWII binoculars with coatings, so I presume the technology came later to Leitz. One Leitz 7x50 example that I serviced had very soft coatings which I think were cryolite.

Some US mil bins had a thin decal label 'Coated. Clean with care' or something. I have one such Wollensak 6x monocular from USAF liferaft kit. Possibly well post-war.
 
Even earlier, Langmuir and Blodgett used Barium Stearate, a fatty acid floated onto the surface in a water bath. 44 mono-molecular layers gave a quarter wave thickness. That would barely survive a touch.
DIY 'homemade' anti-reflection coating?
 
That thread also discusses weak (or dilute) acid etching of specific glasses, to produce a porous layer, a process used by Canon and Nikon on modern internal camera lens surfaces 'nanotech' and also recently by Apple for extremely expensive computer monitors, and an optional 'nano-texture' coating on iPad Pros. Of course, the details are secret, but Apple seem to have made the iPad coating more fingerprint-resistant than the earlier monitor. An old Goerz glass catalog I posted elsewhere (BAK4 thread) listed the weathering properties of some optical glasses.
 
It is interesting the 1955 Lyon v. Bausch Lomb Optical Co. patent case linked above also mentions 'waterproofing' coatings, presumably hydrophobic treatment (silane?). Apple's finger-print proofing is probably a similar, but opposite, oleophobic treatment. Both now common on new binoculars and phones/tablets respectively.
 
On Cryolite;
Avoid hot water method for decementing WW II German lenses
 
Old Hartmann binoculars and Leitz Binuxit amongst others have fragile coatings.


Edited by Eric Drum, 15 February 2025 - 08:02 AM.

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#6547 Eric Drum

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 07:20 AM

Does anyone know if Zeiss made an over-and-under prismatic glass?
 
Many other makers did, presumably to avoid the Zeiss patent until it expired in 1908.
I think this is another 'fake Zeiss':
I guess the soldiers that asked the engraver for "9. Landwehr Division Deutsches Kaiserreich" on the left said "Put 'Carl Zeiss Jena D.R.P.' " on the right!". An expenses fiddle?

There is, of course the cute Turol and Turolem 4x20 ...
Binocollection.com list them in a sidebar as 'Novelty'.
They list no other over-and-under style binoculars with objectives spaced similarly to eyepieces.
><
 
They also describe the first Zeiss center-focus models:

 

Binoculars with central focusing appeared on the market in the middle of the 19th century. Carl Zeiss engineers were not in a hurry with such devices’ production, since they considered them less reliable and protected from dust and dirt. First prototypes of these binoculars were produced in Jena back in 1907, but only in 1909/1910 Carl Zeiss was forced to begin mass production of the devices of such design under the competitors’ pressure and because of the demand. First models of central-focus binoculars appeared in T136 catalog in 1910–those were Teletur 6x15, Telexem 6x21, Telactem 8x24 and Silvarem 6x30. Subsequently, all civilian Carl Zeiss binoculars with central focusing had an “...em” ending in their designations.

 

I guess 'middle of the 19th century' applies to 'Galilean' field glasses?
Ah, no. Thanks to Dr. Gijs van Ginkel:

 

Screenshot 20250215 131702 01

 

Fig. 2 Three very early ivory binoculars from the period from 1825-1830. The left specimen is one of the first serially produced two-eye binoculars (Voigtländer, patent in 1823). The centre binoculars dated 1825 (also from Voigtländer) is perhaps the oldest known extant instrument with a centre-mounted focusing mechanism. Right: Petitpierre, Berlin, around 1830/40. Centre-mounted focusing mechanism and screw focus for the ocular supports.

Carsten Grabenhorst, "Voigtländer & Sohn. Die Firmengeschichte von 1756 bis 1914", Appelhans Verlag, 2002, ISBN 3-930292-25-4, 228 pag. ?

Screenshot 20250215 132104 01

 

First binoculars produced with porroprisms.
Left: by Boulanger in 1859
Right: by Nachet in 1875


So the first binoculars produced with porroprisms already had centre focus!

Those long, thin telescope binoculars were also centre focus.


Edited by Eric Drum, 15 February 2025 - 09:04 AM.

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#6548 MisterDan

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 04:32 PM

-Just wanted to give folks a "heads up"...

 

Many of you might be interested in post #13 of this thread:

https://www.cloudyni...des/?p=11508007

grin.gif

 

Best wishes.

Dan


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#6549 ChrisNYPilor

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 10:56 PM

Quick question.  Are all 35mm objective lenses swappable?  I just received a pair of JB75 Mayflower 7x35's.  They are in great condition but one of the objectives is delaminating.  Here is a link to the original ad.  I have many bins of this era, though nothing identical.



#6550 semlin

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 11:22 PM

Quick question.  Are all 35mm objective lenses swappable?  I just received a pair of JB75 Mayflower 7x35's.  They are in great condition but one of the objectives is delaminating.  Here is a link to the original ad.  I have many bins of this era, though nothing identical.

not all.  binoculars need an objective of a focal length that matches the optic path length of the binocular.  that can vary taking into account binocular height, prism size and eyepiece design.  so the donor binocular has to roughly match the height and width of the binocular in question.

 

the objectives in 35mm binoculars are also not always exactly 35mm diameter so they may not fit in the lens cell.  

 

only one way to find out.




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