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Intes 12" M1212 Deluxe experiences?

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#101 deSitter

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 01:25 PM

I looked again underground today and am attaching the pictures. I think I was wrong and only the purple color of the meniscus lens is reflected in the unclean areas on the main mirror. But assuming the telescope was from the 90s, how long will the Sital mirror last? I also tested on a distant street sign (unfortunately I only held the picture up to the eyepiece with my cell phone) - no color fringe or color cast, everything was razor sharp, I actually can't see any errors and can't explain the disappointing Jupiter observations. I hope I can test it again on a good clear night.

It could just be seeing. I remember a night when things looked so good in my small refractor that I dragged out the 10" Newtonian. Nothing but the boils for hours and I gave up.

 

-drl



#102 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 01:56 PM

As for your other question: you could see in the pictures posted by APM where the previous owner used this scope (small outside observatory).

First of all, thank you very much! I was able to talk to the previous owner, who was very nice and honest, for a while on the phone. The optics are definitely perfect, he assured me of that again and showed me the star test. He also sold it because of the cooling problem, but had not insulated the tube itself. He also said that I should definitely check the adjustment again step by step up to high magnification. He can imagine that it is no longer exactly adjusted due to transport and that I can only notice this at high magnification. He also knew someone who drilled large holes on the side of a 16-inch SC behind the Schmidt plate and thus got the cooling problem under control. But that sounds too risky to me and chips would fall into the tube.
I hope Markus will give me the time to check this again, because unfortunately only rain is forecast here for the next 14 days.


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#103 NevelP

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 03:21 PM

Well that's hopeful. Happy to help.

 

As you say, I would definitely not drill holes in the tube. Aside from the fact that it's a waste of the tube's good condition, it's counterproductive to your insulation method, which aims to reduce to the interaction between different air temperatures on the inside and outside of the tube.


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#104 luxo II

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 05:15 PM

... assuming the telescope was from the 90s, how long will the Sital mirror last? 

The mirror coatings are the most vulnerable part, but to be honest the Russians seem to have done really good coatings - of roughly  a dozen scopes Ive only ever seen one where the the coatings were failing (pinholes everywhere). Reflectivity does decline slowly with age too. However, with care and patience it is feasible to disassemble and send the mirrors for recoating. 

 

The corrector and it's coating... have an indefinite life 50 years, if well treated.

 

Regarding holes and ventilation... I would not do that. If you can get insulation to work for you (NB some with larger SCT's have applied 2 layers of Reflectix with great results).

 

Lastly, if ever you want to do a total disassembly to recoat the mirrors, that's when I'd actually consider machining a new backend for your scope that works like my APM 10", with an open back so the primary cools passively, fixed primary mirror and external focuser, and a central baffle machined with ventilation, internal knife-edge baffles and light-traps along its exterior. Since you have the drawing you can determine the exact dimensions required. Unfortunately you cannot put holes in the existing backend because that will weaken it (flexure) and, with an open back a seal is required between the mirror and the OTA to stop air carrying dust and pollutants from entering the OTA and contaminating the face of the primary - this is why my scope has a fixed primary mirror. 


Edited by luxo II, 12 February 2024 - 05:26 PM.


#105 n2068dd

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 11:37 PM

Congratulations Mr.Steve!

 

INTES M1212 would be a life-time scope. Needs no more for the planets observing, I may think. Fortunately, I also could acquired INTES 10" Peruseus F12.5 in several years ago. It was made in late '90s the most earlier version. The construction is different all the way from the last version of INTES-Micro. Though Its optical quality looks the same in all productions. I hear all of INTES optical unit was polished at Ukraine factory near Kiev in early times. It could be Aries, I may suspects, though they are located in Kherson. I don't know about last period, it could be another factory like LZOS or LOMO, the optic suppler for INTES.  In 2014, STF factory is almost close to sell their remained product. I hesitated to purchase from Japan considering that serious situations. I almost gave up to acquire the INTES larger telescope after that, even in still on the AD of importer.

 

My INTES is maybe third hand used one. Modified optic settings to be worse. I reconstructed thoroughly and re-painted with powder coat. It took two years and last year I confirmed how it would be recovered as original. The test photo is below. Both the planet and the DSO looks so fine detailed.

 

Jupiter_01071 1.jpg

 

NGC891.jpg

 

And find imaging train outside of OTA is not stable to show without coma aberration. This year I plan to make custom rings for heavy imaging train showing below.

 

DSC06355.jpg

 

I may think INTES large Makustov is all-round player in all categories except wide field viewing with most detailed reproduction.

 

P.S. about for the double images: Is it derived from diagonal mirror? I may suspects.

 

Regards

Hiromu 


Edited by n2068dd, 13 February 2024 - 10:40 AM.

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#106 luxo II

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 12:34 AM

Hi Hiromu, it is interesting you think the optics were outsourced, possibly to Aries in Kiev - someone else suggested as much before. At some point they appear to be tested by the same lab in Moscow - whether destined for Intes, Intes-Micro or Santel. 



#107 n2068dd

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 10:15 AM

Hi, luxo II

 

Here's the copy of Mr.Kasai who is the trader dealing all over in Russia from '80s. He himself traveled for business in Russia many times and reported how the Russian optic was made. This article was written 1996, early times of INTEL they started maybe in 1992. In the right side of the photo below shows Mr.Vassiliev the president of INTES, and the Mr.Kasai. The named INTES product was MK63 with dedicated folk mount , OTA MK65 ,MK67 and 69, maybe. Mr.Kasai writes ' Mr.Vassiliev is mechanical engineer. All product and parts were made in his own factory.' the back machine of the two guy is the polishing machine, Mr.Kasai writes.

 

DSC06367.jpg

 

The tube milling method, you can see in the right side photo below. In the the left side photo, you can see Mr.Sykoroku the president of Asto-sib where well known for Ritchey–Chrétien telescope company.

 

DSC06369.jpg

 

Though in another writing, He told to the magazine writer. ' All of the real optical glass was made at near Kiev factory.'

 

 As M.Ludes writes, https://www.cloudyni...icro/?p=4135515

INTES was closed in shortly and the engineers were transferred to STF. STF had the same feeling of INTES rather than INTES-Micro.

 Mr.Zhiganov one of the original member of INTES started INTES-Micro. Mr.Kasai say ' INTES-Micro did not had their own plant. They ordered every elements to some fabricators and the product assembling was made in the factory of military arsenal munition at Moscow.'

In reality, INTES-Micro was the design firm with least engineer.


Edited by n2068dd, 13 February 2024 - 10:30 AM.

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#108 NevelP

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 01:38 PM

This is amazing. Thanks Hiromu. Info on Intes and the follow-up companies can be difficult to find, let alone pictures. You say the Intes engineers were transferred to STF, but should that not include Santel? I don’t want to turn Stefan’s topic into a general topic about Intes maks, but I absolutely love my current Intes MK91 and Intes/Santel MK72 and I hope it works out for him as well.

#109 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 03:28 PM

Hello people - there is something to report!!!
The weather apps no longer seem to be correct at all.
Today around noon it suddenly showed me that it could become clear and that was the case!

After the previous owner gave me another tip about the adjustment yesterday, I remembered that I have the OCAL Pro.
So after work I put it in the Intes.
You could see a slight deviation in the adjustment in the picture, see pictures - the yellowish one before, the other after the adjustment, I definitely didn't notice this with the eyepiece. I think the air has to be really calm to be able to make that out.

Now I had set up my Newton again in parallel and was a little more motivated because I had at least noticed one misalignment with the Ocal. I had to make maybe 3 or 4 minimal movements on a screw until the picture looked perfect, at least with the Ocal.

I was lucky that Jupiter's GRF was there too.

In short - it was this minimal misalignment!!

I still have goosebumps and am super excited! Jupiter was amazing!!! - better than in my Newton- I compared it side by side. The dark arc around the GRF is clearly visible.
As I was driving to the Orion Trapeze again, I briefly passed Rigel when his companion and the components E and F in the trapeze immediately jumped in my face.

Another star test showed me an excellent image with diffraction rings and the Poisson spot like in a picture book! WOW WOW WOW!!

I'm thrilled and almost wanted to return it!!
This minimal misalignment completely squashed the image. I couldn't have made it out without the Ocal.

So - I'm keeping it and would like to thank you very much for every contribution!

As I said, with the eyepiece I had the impression that the adjustment was correct.
It's unbelievable what this minimal difference does to the MC!

It's definitely better than my really, really good Newton!

I'm still completely speechless!

Best regards, Steve

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#110 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 03:28 PM

and after

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#111 luxo II

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 03:38 PM

Congratulations, Stefan !

 

.. in the scopes with deluxe optics the difference between perfect and "close" is significant.

In mine when its right its like opening a window into space.


Edited by luxo II, 13 February 2024 - 03:38 PM.


#112 Kitfox

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 03:50 PM

That is fantastic news!!!  I know that joy you feel right now, and you have earned it, too!



#113 NevelP

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 04:43 PM

Excellent, well done! Let us know how you progress.

#114 R Botero

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 06:01 PM

and after

Hooray waytogo.gif



#115 CHASLX200

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 06:59 PM

Congratulations Mr.Steve!

 

INTES M1212 would be a life-time scope. Needs no more for the planets observing, I may think. Fortunately, I also could acquired INTES 10" Peruseus F12.5 in several years ago. It was made in late '90s the most earlier version. The construction is different all the way from the last version of INTES-Micro. Though Its optical quality looks the same in all productions. I hear all of INTES optical unit was polished at Ukraine factory near Kiev in early times. It could be Aries, I may suspects, though they are located in Kherson. I don't know about last period, it could be another factory like LZOS or LOMO, the optic suppler for INTES.  In 2014, STF factory is almost close to sell their remained product. I hesitated to purchase from Japan considering that serious situations. I almost gave up to acquire the INTES larger telescope after that, even in still on the AD of importer.

 

My INTES is maybe third hand used one. Modified optic settings to be worse. I reconstructed thoroughly and re-painted with powder coat. It took two years and last year I confirmed how it would be recovered as original. The test photo is below. Both the planet and the DSO looks so fine detailed.

 

attachicon.gif Jupiter_01071 1.jpg

 

attachicon.gif NGC891.jpg

 

And find imaging train outside of OTA is not stable to show without coma aberration. This year I plan to make custom rings for heavy imaging train showing below.

 

attachicon.gif DSC06355.jpg

 

I may think INTES large Makustov is all-round player in all categories except wide field viewing with most detailed reproduction.

 

P.S. about for the double images: Is it derived from diagonal mirror? I may suspects.

 

Regards

Hiromu 

I would kill for a old gray NJP -160.


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#116 deSitter

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 07:24 PM

Hello people - there is something to report!!!
The weather apps no longer seem to be correct at all.
Today around noon it suddenly showed me that it could become clear and that was the case!

After the previous owner gave me another tip about the adjustment yesterday, I remembered that I have the OCAL Pro.
So after work I put it in the Intes.
You could see a slight deviation in the adjustment in the picture, see pictures - the yellowish one before, the other after the adjustment, I definitely didn't notice this with the eyepiece. I think the air has to be really calm to be able to make that out.

Now I had set up my Newton again in parallel and was a little more motivated because I had at least noticed one misalignment with the Ocal. I had to make maybe 3 or 4 minimal movements on a screw until the picture looked perfect, at least with the Ocal.

I was lucky that Jupiter's GRF was there too.

In short - it was this minimal misalignment!!

I still have goosebumps and am super excited! Jupiter was amazing!!! - better than in my Newton- I compared it side by side. The dark arc around the GRF is clearly visible.
As I was driving to the Orion Trapeze again, I briefly passed Rigel when his companion and the components E and F in the trapeze immediately jumped in my face.

Another star test showed me an excellent image with diffraction rings and the Poisson spot like in a picture book! WOW WOW WOW!!

I'm thrilled and almost wanted to return it!!
This minimal misalignment completely squashed the image. I couldn't have made it out without the Ocal.

So - I'm keeping it and would like to thank you very much for every contribution!

As I said, with the eyepiece I had the impression that the adjustment was correct.
It's unbelievable what this minimal difference does to the MC!

It's definitely better than my really, really good Newton!

I'm still completely speechless!

Best regards, Steve

There is just no margin for error with such steeply curved surfaces.

 

Great news! Have a ball!

 

-drl



#117 CHASLX200

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 07:27 PM

There is just no margin for error with such steeply curved surfaces.

 

Great news! Have a ball!

 

-drl

Tell that to Meade with the 7" ED.



#118 n2068dd

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 08:16 PM

I'm glad you solved it!

INTEL should not worse I'd think.

 

Though yes, it requires strict optical coordination. Not as easy as many think of Makustov design with all spherical mirrors. INTES main mirror is not spherical.

Right coordination stay in the only one axis. Can't notice in the eye with eyepieces, but shows misalignment images in CCD. You may notice the tube deformation by the gravity will force the image degradation. Very very sensitive. I feel.

 

Regards

Hiromu



#119 thebonz

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 08:21 PM

Thats more like it. Great news



#120 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 08:44 AM

Thank you very much, I am incredibly relieved! How important is the silver coating on the insulation? I have black carbon foil here and would just like to make it even nicer? Or do you advise against it? The fact that this adjustment is so incredibly sensitive is really impressive. I would never have noticed. Many others can probably get a lot out of their optics with a tool like the Ocal!

#121 luxo II

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 05:35 PM

How important is the silver coating on the insulation?

The silver foil is the most important part of the insulation. It's a "radiant barrier" which works by reflecting infrared (heat) to keep it inside your scope rather than allow it to escape.

 

It is the reason why space-blankets are surprisingly warm, and NASA used the same principle to make ultralight-weight insulation for spacecraft such as the Hubble and the Apollo lunar landers. Gold coating is even better than aluminum as its reflectivity is the highest possible for a thin film, hence spacecraft were wrapped in a blanket comprised of upto 7 layers of gold-coated mylar foil, stitched or taped with Kapton tape.

 

Without knowing where you are and your climate, other solutions may work for you; for example I use a wrap made of Corflute (corrugated plastic) with a 3mm air gap between that and the OTA; this works well enough in my climate, though sometimes I do apply a little heat to the OTA (around 3-4W) via a heater strap inside the insulation, as this assists with keeping dew off the corrector - here the night-time humidity is very high, often 95%.


Edited by luxo II, 14 February 2024 - 06:08 PM.

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#122 luxo II

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 06:09 PM

NB Stefan, when you have time, some pics would be nice in this thread ... 

https://www.cloudyni...aksutov/page-14


Edited by luxo II, 14 February 2024 - 06:10 PM.


#123 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 18 February 2024 - 02:55 PM

Today my wife and I improved the insulation again so that the tape is no longer visible.

 But at the moment it seems to be working so well.

 Furthermore, the counterweight rod is still neatly modified.

 The fan also gets a filter housing and a 90 degree viewfinder is attached.

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#124 R Botero

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 07:32 AM

Great picture Stefan!  Enjoy it! waytogo.gif

With that insulation you may find you don't even need the dew shield to prevent dew formation.  I typically don't use it here in London - which is very humid - unless I can tell the air is dripping wet.

 

Roberto


Edited by R Botero, 19 February 2024 - 07:34 AM.


#125 NevelP

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 01:14 PM

Looks good, you look proud. Did you do more observations?


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