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Intes 12" M1212 Deluxe experiences?

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#151 R Botero

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Posted 22 February 2024 - 08:00 AM

Stefan

 

I've had my 10" TEC in an unheated ROR since 2014.   I run a dehumidifier every morning for 3hrs - this is done automatically.   I have four telescopes in that ROR and plenty of imaging equipment.   No problems with humidity, mould, etc.  No fans running continuously though.  Natural ventilation and the dehumidifier only.

 

Roberto


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#152 markmanner

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Posted 22 February 2024 - 08:45 AM

Stefan

 

I've had my 10" TEC in an unheated ROR since 2014.   I run a dehumidifier every morning for 3hrs - this is done automatically.   I have four telescopes in that ROR and plenty of imaging equipment.   No problems with humidity, mould, etc.  No fans running continuously though.  Natural ventilation and the dehumidifier only.

 

Roberto

Stefan, as another data point, I had a TEC 10" (along with a refractor and large RC telescope) in a roll-off observatory in very humid Tennessee for more than a decade, and no mold problems. Similar to Roberto's experience, I ran a very low level heat source and dehumidifier automatically each evening (after observing, and when not).  I think mold many times happens when scopes are used outside and then brought in, have condensation, and are put up in a case or somewhere they can't dry out. 


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#153 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 22 February 2024 - 12:04 PM

Roberto - I just looked at everything again carefully with bright light. If I'm honest, the lens and mirror don't look really clean. You can see a lot of stains and also some large and small scratches but also some hair and a lot of dust. Some tiny signs of fungus can actually be seen in the lens. Probably if I want to enjoy it for many years I can't avoid cleaning it? Are there instructions for removing the lens and removing the primary mirror, what to pay attention to and how what is attached? And above all - how do you adjust the primary mirror perfectly again afterwards?

#154 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 03:36 AM

Hello, are these three large screws to remove the main mirror cell? And does the primary mirror need to be adjusted afterwards and if so, how? What means and methods can I use to clean the sital mirror and the meniscus lens? Does it make sense to re-blacken the inside of the tube? Thank you

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#155 deSitter

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 03:53 AM

Hello, are these three large screws to remove the main mirror cell? And does the primary mirror need to be adjusted afterwards and if so, how? What means and methods can I use to clean the sital mirror and the meniscus lens? Does it make sense to re-blacken the inside of the tube? Thank you

This is making me nervous. Does the Losmandy bar wiggle around? if not, why are you so keen to get inside?

 

I don't know what is invested in this scope, but I would buy a 6" Mak and practice on that before tinkering with such a large instrument. That has to be a lot safer.

 

-drl


Edited by deSitter, 23 February 2024 - 03:54 AM.


#156 deSitter

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 03:58 AM

Stefan, as another data point, I had a TEC 10" (along with a refractor and large RC telescope) in a roll-off observatory in very humid Tennessee for more than a decade, and no mold problems. Similar to Roberto's experience, I ran a very low level heat source and dehumidifier automatically each evening (after observing, and when not).  I think mold many times happens when scopes are used outside and then brought in, have condensation, and are put up in a case or somewhere they can't dry out. 

Absolutely right - you have to make sure the scope is not put away with hidden condensation.

 

At the end of a night, I will heat the equipment with a hair dryer if near an AC source, before bringing it inside.

 

-drl



#157 luxo II

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:04 AM

Stefan your pic in post #154 -  those three groups of screws are for collimating the primary mirror.

 

Within each group, the centre larger screw pulls the mirror toward the back, while the two grub screws on either side push the mirror forward. WIth only one screw pushing while the other pulls, it tends to twist the plate supporting the mirror and the result is unpredictable collimation. The Russians found that using two grub screws on either side of the one in the middle eliminates this twist, provided they are just firm and not overtightened.

 

My 10" has similar.


Edited by luxo II, 23 February 2024 - 07:06 AM.

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#158 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:21 AM

Hello Luxo, I'm wondering how I can remove the main mirror for cleaning. Markus just said that I have to loosen these three screws in order to remove the cover with the mirror. Are there no instructions? @Roberto you meant you take everything apart every year to clean the optics?

#159 R Botero

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:27 AM

Stefan

 

Call APM!!!  None of us here have had that scope and can only make suggestions.   From reading your post on the corrector #153 above:

 

 

You can see a lot of stains and also some large and small scratches but also some hair and a lot of dust. Some tiny signs of fungus can actually be seen in the lens. Probably if I want to enjoy it for many years I can't avoid cleaning it? Are there instructions for removing the lens and removing the primary mirror, what to pay attention to and how what is attached? And above all - how do you adjust the primary mirror perfectly again afterwards?

You need to speak to them directly.  If the corrector has fungus and/or scratches, if you were not made aware of these and the price reflected it, you don't want to be keeping it in my opinion.   

 

Roberto



#160 R Botero

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:29 AM

Hello Luxo, I'm wondering how I can remove the main mirror for cleaning. Markus just said that I have to loosen these three screws in order to remove the cover with the mirror. Are there no instructions? @Roberto you meant you take everything apart every year to clean the optics?

 

Again, we don't know this scope.  In my TEC, a number of bolts come off at the front, around the corrector, and that comes off.   If I wanted to remove the primary mirror, then I would have to unscrew bolts similar to those shown in your picture in #154.  

 

Call APM, even better, have a video call.  

 

Roberto



#161 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:39 AM

Well, I spoke to Markus Ludes on the phone today. He said it wasn't rocket science. I was supposed to mark the meniscus lens and then remove it and then remove the mirror with these three screws. I'll just try it...
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#162 NevelP

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 08:14 AM

Stefan, you said “Some tiny signs of fungus can actually be seen in the lens.” You also asked whether “re-blacking” of the tube is required. Did you see the fungus on the meniscus itself or did you see it through the meniscus but somewhere in the tube? Generally, the Intes Micro maks have very good black coating / flocking material. If the fungus is inside the tube, which would give me the creeps, you may be able to clean it without rubbing off the paint. If the paint does come off somewhat, you can retouch it with matte flocking paint the Teleskop-Express sells in your country. You will not see the difference when observing.

I had to install new flocking material in my Intes MK91, because the original stuff had deteriorated. I ended up using Protostar. It was easier with the MK91 because it does not have all the knife edge baffles in the tube that yours does have.

#163 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 08:26 AM

No, there is no fungus in the tube. I saw tiny, maybe 1mm, marks on the inside of the lens. Since I have to open it anyway because the rail is loose, I want to clean it straight away. I found two pictures of someone dismantling the mirror cell including the cover. I'll try that first. The second picture shows what I think is a good idea for adjusting the main mirror. I'm going to print one of these out. Of course I will report with pictures and would be grateful for any help.

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#164 markmanner

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:10 AM

Good luck and have fun. After some pre-worrying, I took my 12" apart and back together again no problems. As noted, the meniscus and the rear cell are heavy and will try to shift on you when they are pulled from the tube, so be prepared!

Mark



#165 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:29 AM

Thank you. I also think that people think about it way too much. Basically, I'm a mechanical engineer by profession. I think you're just afraid that something will break or that you'll never be able to adjust it, which is actually nonsense. The closer I look at these pictures, I actually only see a very simple and logically structured mechanism that ultimately has to be aligned exactly centrally to one another. I don't know if I'll get to it this week, but I'll take pictures and report back.


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#166 deSitter

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:36 AM

Thank you. I also think that people think about it way too much. Basically, I'm a mechanical engineer by profession. I think you're just afraid that something will break or that you'll never be able to adjust it, which is actually nonsense. The closer I look at these pictures, I actually only see a very simple and logically structured mechanism that ultimately has to be aligned exactly centrally to one another. I don't know if I'll get to it this week, but I'll take pictures and report back.

The reason is 5x magnification by the secondary. There is no way to do that right without complex equipment. Tweaking until you have centered donuts is not collimation, it is self-deception. Why do you imagine puttering about in the shop is as good as an actual optics manufacturing operation with the necessary equipment to do it right? Laser pointers are not a substitute for an optical lab. Really, reading your posts causes my hair to stand on end.

 

Was your Losmandy bar actually loose? That is, did it wobble? And if it did not wobble, why did it need adjusting?

 

-drl


Edited by deSitter, 23 February 2024 - 09:37 AM.


#167 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 04:04 PM

So... everything would be dismantled. And it was necessary. There was a lot of looseness and the mirror had definitely already been cleaned by someone who had probably never done it before... The rail was also loose. The catch mirror holder too and even tipped over. In any case, it's very interesting to understand how everything is structured. Keep your fingers crossed for me that everything will work out again afterwards. Best regards, Steve

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#168 luxo II

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:47 PM

Stefan, not sure if you noticed this…

 

As you know the focuser knob on the back drives a pinion which engages and rotates the large gear ring. The shaft of the focuser knob is set eccentrically in the bushing on the back of the scope - rotating the bush adjusts how tightly the teeth of the pinion mesh with the large gear.


Edited by luxo II, 23 February 2024 - 07:48 PM.

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#169 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 04:38 AM

Thank you Luxo, that's understandable otherwise you wouldn't have any setting options. Markus told me when I put the primary mirror unit back in I shouldn't touch the adjustment because it didn't move the pressure screws and the unit is only attached to the three tension screws.
However, I'm not even sure if the primary mirror was even perfectly adjusted. In any case, you could see that someone had already cleaned it improperly! I would like to at least check this adjustment. I saw the complicated unrolling method, I now thought of something much simpler that I think must work. I'm going to print a mask with a tiny hole in the middle. I design the mask so that it fits perfectly into the meniscus lens frame. So I then mount the frame, except that the mask sits in it instead of the lens. You can then use the OCAL to check whether this hole is exactly in the middle. If not, I will replace the main mirror adjustment. What I also don't like is that the secondary mirror is attached from the inside out with the fastening screw. Only the three adjusting screws are on the outside without a guide! You can move the secondary mirror back and forth by several millimeters because it just hangs loosely on a screw in the middle. Here I will also try to build a guide so that the secondary mirror is kept exactly centered even if it is loose. And now a very primitive question. Purely theoretically at least you could replace the tube with a carbon tube, which of course has to be very stable?



#170 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 04:57 AM

I have now constructed this mask, which fits perfectly into the frame of the lens. In my opinion, this should make it possible to check the main mirror adjustment. The large openings ensure that enough light can fall into the mirror, which then illuminates the mask from the inside so that the OCAL sensor is sufficiently illuminated.

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#171 JohnH

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 03:22 PM

Hello, are these three large screws to remove the main mirror cell? And does the primary mirror need to be adjusted afterwards and if so, how? What means and methods can I use to clean the sital mirror and the meniscus lens? Does it make sense to re-blacken the inside of the tube? Thank you


The back of your telescope is almost identical to my 8 inch m809.

It looks like a filar type focuser, and a ventilation fan but otherwise identical. In my case there are set screws set about a quarter inch in from the edge of the rear mirror cell through the tube that hold the primary mirror cell and mount in place. If you go through my old post you'll find photographs of me disassembling it years ago
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#172 luxo II

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 03:38 PM

That mask should be fine, effectively a more precise version of the string method. But no need to obsess over this as Rumaks are not as sensitive to primary mirror tilt as say classical cassegrains or RCs. Secondary mirror tilt is what matters most.

Why a carbon fibre tube ? You need to define the issue you want to solve before leaping to a solution (otherwise it may be worse than what you have now).

I can think of five possible issues - weight; differential thermal expansion causing the focal plane to shift with temperature changes; thermal aspects inside the OTA ie insulation; flexure vs the need to maintain optical collimation; and mechanical aspects (mounting, the way the cells fit, piggyback scopes etc).

Lastly, there are the environmental aspects associated with producing and disposing of it one day. Personally I think CF is not a helpful material and in particular is environmentally hazardous in the long run.

Edited by luxo II, 24 February 2024 - 04:58 PM.


#173 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 25 February 2024 - 01:23 PM

I'm now glad that I cleaned the mirror and lens.

 

 The optics shine like new again!

 

 A lot also had to be done in the tube, some of the panels were moved, loose screws, some of the paint was off, I repainted here...

 

 And the tube was covered with heat-repellent gold foil from the automotive industry.

 

 It was spontaneously christened the “Golden Eye Telescope”.

 

 Everything else follows...

 

 

 Best regards, Steve

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#174 StefanBemmerl

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Posted 25 February 2024 - 01:24 PM

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#175 deSitter

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Posted 25 February 2024 - 01:26 PM

I'm now glad that I cleaned the mirror and lens.

 

 The optics shine like new again!

 

 A lot also had to be done in the tube, some of the panels were moved, loose screws, some of the paint was off, I repainted here...

 

 And the tube was covered with heat-repellent gold foil from the automotive industry.

 

 It was spontaneously christened the “Golden Eye Telescope”.

 

 Everything else follows...

 

 

 Best regards, Steve

This is like a compendium of things NOT to do with a new telescope, particularly a precision instrument. The only thing you haven't done to it is use it in appreciation.

 

-drl


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