124 replies to this topic

[Diana N]

Horrible luck, but better to play it safe.  I'd hate to read "Stargazers Killed at Oregon Star Party" as headline news, and it could easily happen if OSP was held and the firefighters can't get that fire under control.

[Diana N]

We face another 30 to 40 years of wildfires before we finally burn down the remaining National Forests in the west.  They need to burn TWICE.  We are about halfway through the process.  The good news according to science studies is that in parts of the country like the southern Sierra's we only have twenty years of major wildfires to complete the process.

I get what you are saying, but somehow I can't bring myself to regard that as good news.  We've doomed our beautiful forests! 

[bignick243]

I get what you are saying, but somehow I can't bring myself to regard that as good news.  We've doomed our beautiful forests! 

The most aggravating thing about it is that nobody is talking about a plan to resolve this. It happens every year and you can **** near set your watch to it. I think I have an idea that could stop this from happening every year or at the very least slow it down. It's a pretty crazy idea and it wouldn't be easy and it defiantly wouldn't be cheap but I feel like it would be doable if society collectively put their minds to it.

 

I'd be interested in hearing any plans on how to mitigate these fires whether they are good, bad, or the dumbest thing you have ever heard of....at least then we could have a conversation about it instead of watching half the country burn to the ground every year.

[JMW]

The unofficial Stellarvue friends gathering is meeting at the end of August this year. The event is mostly people who have attended the late June/early July official Stellarvue Dark Sky Star party for years at Likely. We decide to meet unofficially at Likely at the end of the summer hoping for cooler weather. 

 

I would love to have a western state regional star party that meet in the new moon of September each year. Many of the GSSP and OSP events have been getting too hot in the day to be comfortable. September has the advantage of longer nights, cooler days.

 

I just made reservations for 4 nights at Likely RV and Golf since I had already purchased the food for OSP. My wife and I will golf 18 rounds together for 3 days and enjoy the stars for 4 nights. 

Edited by JMW, 25 July 2024 - 01:57 PM.

[Joe F Gafford]

We had a few in the past canceled due to fire or fire danger. One was the Weekend Under The Stars (WUTS) sponsored by the Cheyenne and Laramie clubs Near Foxpark WY above 9,000' elevation. This was at-the-door and the cost went to the port-a-potties and some door prizes. We had door prizes and a speaker as well as sometimes tours of Jelm Mountain Infrared Observatory. After that last fire, no star party was held there due to the pine beetle and fires left standing dead timber as a falling hazard for campers, however, there is talk of holding this again on a local forum group. This depends of sponsoring and the US Forest Service allowing reservations to that area. This site is a snowmobile, ATV and horse trailer staging area. You can come up individually, but you'll have to contend with these and lanterns at night.

 

Joe

[WadeH237]

I'd hate to read "Stargazers Killed at Oregon Star Party" as headline news, and it could easily happen if OSP was held and the firefighters can't get that fire under control.

That scenario is pretty unlikely.  The OSP site is a very large clearing inside of the Ochoco National Forest.  If folks were trapped inside the forest during a fire, the site we set up on would be a designated shelter area.

 

The few of us up on site until the cancellation were very aware of the possibility of an evacuation order that might not leave time to pack our gear back up.  If that were to happen, we would have abandoned our gear and gone back later to retrieve it (and in all likelihood, it would have been fine).

 

Part of the issue is that our presence is something that they are aware of.  Even if we don't need them for anything, they still have to keep some resources available just in case.

 

But the biggest issue is moving fire fighters and gear around.  Many of the Forest Service roads are narrow, gravel or dirt roads, and there are plenty of places where it's single lane, so if opposing traffic meets, someone would have to give way.  Imagine trying to move fire fighters and gear around, with hundreds of attendees coming in, and then going out, on those same roads.  They need to be able to move freely and not have to worry about folks being out and about as they fight this - and other, smaller - fires.

[WadeH237]

I think at one point they talked about moving it. I can't remember but I think there was some reason why they couldn't move it. Maybe Wade could chime in. September would be awesome though. I think May might be too early. I just hope they can stop it before it reaches the site. My fear is if that happens they will do the same thing they did with table mountain.

You can be sure that we will discuss it (it is a recurring topic).

 

I wouldn't be able to say more until after any decision is made, and ready to be made public.

 

Edit:  Oh, and while I am thinking about it, the OSP committee is pretty short handed.  If anyone out there would be interested in being part of the organizing committee, you can drop me a PM, and I can get you in touch with the right folks.  We would love to have a few enthusiastic folks join us.  Astronomy skills are cool, but not required

Edited by WadeH237, 25 July 2024 - 04:55 PM.

[CCDMan]

In recent years, the Oregon Star Party was cancelled in 2020 because of the COVID-19 pandemic, and cancelled in 2021 and now in 2024 due to wildfire risk.

 

With climate change and recurring wildfires, the OSP Directors should consider MOVING UP the dates of the 2025 event.  Scheduling it at the end of July is proving to be too late in the season.  

 

With a New Moon on 25 Jun 2025, how about scheduling the OSP for the period Tues.-Sun., 24-29 Jun 2025?  Although the nights are shorter in late June & early July, having the 2025 event at that time of year would avoid the wildfire conditions a lot better.  

 

If you wait until the next New Moon on 24 Jul 2025, and schedule the event for Tues.-Sun., 22-27 Jul 2025, we probably will be in the exact same situation -- wildfire smoke and/or forest closure....

I agree. As someone who used to go to OSP and have lived just East of Prineville for over 20 years now, the future for fires and smoke at that site does not look great, especially from Mid July onward. They need to either move the date or the location or both or they will find this sort of thing happening way too often. A huge amount of wasted effort for everyone!

 

If you live here it is still OK for  astronomy but that is because you can image/observe when conditions permit. As an example, we had heavy smoke last night with an AQI (I now have a monitor) of close to 200. Right now it is only 33 and perfectly fine. 

 

And although I have a roll-off in the backyard, I now find most of my imaging gets done at a remote site in California that is 30 miles in from the coast so rarely gets smoke or fire.

Edited by CCDMan, 25 July 2024 - 05:21 PM.

[triplemon]

I think OSP moved up by a month a few years ago - exactly because of fires and smoke.
It used to be in late-end of August, so to not overlap with GSSP and TMSP. And before COVID I only recall one year were smoke was a significant factor - shortly after that the date was moved.

As far as locations go - the coast range wouldn't be as dark and has a lot more clouds as the dry side. And it also has a lot less open, unforested mountain tops here in Oregon ...

So there are lots of tradeoffs to be made.

Edited by triplemon, 25 July 2024 - 09:49 PM.

[CCDMan]

And before COVID I only recall one year were smoke was a significant factor.
 

Before is exactly my point. Things have changed over here due to warming and that will only get worse. This is true for any locations in the dry mountains to the East sides of CA WA, and OR. In fact, if you look at the smoke and fires today - GSSP too would have been wiped out if it had been this weekend

[GrnXnham]

Yes, it would be better if these star parties were moved up a few weeks, but if you move them much earlier than the end of June it would make it difficult for families to attend them because kids would still be in school.

[Wes Stone]

I went to OSP every year from 1994 through 2019. There has always been the specter of closure due to fires. In 1994, I remember a letter being sent to registrants warning of the extreme fire danger and the possible need to use an alternate site near Brothers. 

 

Longtime OSP attendee and photographer Bruce Johnson has a quote on his OSP history page: "Such closures by the U.S. Forest Service or by the BLM can affect us at our new site at Indian Trail Springs. The possibility of such a last-minute closure of our star party loomed so large in approx. 1995, that the OSP Committee took a serious look at a place called Soldier Creek Meadows (aka McCormick Ranch), on private land some 60 miles ENE of Bend. I was there, and was impressed-- it could have made a fine site, but costs were prohibitive." 

 

I'd say smoke was a factor (sometimes major, sometimes minor) the majority of years that I attended OSP. I remember a very smoky night in 1996. Many years, extreme fire danger was also a concern (1994, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, etc., etc.) but what changed in 2021 was that the Forest Service actually cancelled the permit, whereas in previous years there were just various restrictions or precautions. I think I remember one year when all public recreation on the national forest off major roads was prohibited, but the star party was allowed to continue for the days listed on the permit.

 

There was a discussion back in 2013 of whether to hold OSP 2014 at the end of July or the more traditional Labor Day weekend. The arguments for July were to avoid the start of the school year and to avoid fires (even though a large fire had started in late July of 2013). They ended up having OSP 2014 in August, the week before Labor Day weekend. There were lots of fires in 2014, but for the most part the smoke stayed away from OSP. OSP has been held as late as September 9-12 in 1999, and that was probably the best year I've seen for transparency. In 2003, we did a small star party at the OSP site in late September. That also featured some of the best contrast I've ever seen. If you get away from July and August, you probably get away from the worst fire danger. But smoke is a wildcard. I don't think there is a month that you can guarantee will be smoke-free, whether from wildfires or prescribed burns. It's pretty much accepted that fire season lasts from early July through October now. For a June star party, I'd probably choose GSSP.

 

I'm not sure what OSP's future is after being cancelled 4 out of the past 5 years. Rose City Astronomers have purchased a site east of Bend that isn't likely to host a regional star party but will likely host several club star parties each year.

 

Just rambling, but not to OSP this year.

 

[Oregon-raybender]

Sorry to hear about this. Better safe than sorry as they say. Even here on the

Oregon coast, smoke is a factor, currently not to day, but the winds do shift

over to us. I noticed since moving here 18 years ago, the wind has picked

up more and a bit warmer. Gusts up to 35 mph during the last few days

have hammered the seeing. I think moving to June is possible, a slightly better

chance, but what about shorter nights, not dark until midnight.  Of course how

does effect GSSP, don't know how many people go to both?

 

Starry Nights

[audioaficionado]

I've had a star party cancelled due to rain in the summer. Fire is a natural part of our ecosystem. We can't control the weather or lightning caused fires. The site is fine and even if it gets burned over, it would still be mostly untouched in the center where most people camp. There are only a few new moons per summer so we just make the best of the schedule as it works out. OSP isn't the only regional star party so we all have to try and coexist.

[JMW]

Well the Park Fire blew up since I made the reservations at Likely RV and Golf. Air is hazardous in the area today. Made new plans for Glover Hot Springs instead.

 

The smoke map looks very ugly from areas north of Reno this morning. It is bad most places in northwestern California, Nevada north of Reno and into Oregon.

Edited by JMW, 28 July 2024 - 04:43 PM.

[vsteblina]

Before is exactly my point. Things have changed over here due to warming and that will only get worse. This is true for any locations in the dry mountains to the East sides of CA WA, and OR. In fact, if you look at the smoke and fires today - GSSP too would have been wiped out if it had been this weekend

The current mega-fire era started in 1986. 

 

I had a red card and worked fires every year since 1986 until I retired from fire in 2019.  I only worked VERY LARGE FIRES and that was primarily in the PNW. 

 

Memories of things changing are faulty.  We have had mega-fires for well over 30 years now in the west. 

 

Things did change in 2003, when the deaths of four firefighters on the Okanogan National Forest led to Federal legislation stripping Department of Justice representation for Federal employees for decisions made in the official capacity while fighting fires.  This led to a massive exodus of Federal firefighters as there is no way to liability insurance can cover the legal costs. 

 

More importantly, it led to more conservative decisions since nobody wanted to be legally libel.  This was a good thing, since it meant taking fewer chances putting out fires.  BUT looking at the fire statistics there is a huge jump in acreage burned after 2003.  That meant fires burned longer and produced much more smoke. 

 

Here is the fire history map for Oregon since 2000.  It was similar in the previous 15 years.

 

https://caltopo.com/...t&a=fire_recent

 

Good luck picking a smoke free location.

 

The most aggravating thing about it is that nobody is talking about a plan to resolve this. It happens every year and you can **** near set your watch to it. I think I have an idea that could stop this from happening every year or at the very least slow it down. It's a pretty crazy idea and it wouldn't be easy and it defiantly wouldn't be cheap but I feel like it would be doable if society collectively put their minds to it.

 

I'd be interested in hearing any plans on how to mitigate these fires whether they are good, bad, or the dumbest thing you have ever heard of....at least then we could have a conversation about it instead of watching half the country burn to the ground every year.

Foresters are livid over the destruction of the Federal forests.  Here is what needs to be done.

 

https://californiasa...-paper-camp-70/

 

We sent out editorials on this topic that were prepared by foresters and professional editors.  We sent them out to every major newspaper and several radio talk shows throughout the west.  Close to 50 different sites.

 

NONE were published. 

 

The newspapers did publish editorials on this topic written by environmental lawyers!!! 

 

As a friend that was a editorial editor said......"it is hard to convince people when the editor won't publish your opinion".

 

Good luck, getting them to listen.  They do like covering burning houses and forests since it provides pretty pictures that sell their newscasts and newspapers.

 

 

[blueplanetphoto]

From an ecological standpoint I agree with most of the report. As a wildlife biologist, I’ve had a long-standing beef with the contradictory aspects of the multiple use directive of the Forest Service. I think it causes too many conflicts within the resource management structure. The first mega fire to capture the public’s attention was probably the Yellowstone fire in the late 80s. I was just starting my undergrad degree at Colorado State the year after.

It’s too large a topic to get into here, but what is readily apparent is large fire complexes are more frequent and will be regular features of the summer in the west. It might result in the major star party events overlapping in spring and fall, whereas now they are more spread out and people can attend multiple events if they wish.

Having also worked in government (USFS, USFWS), I don’t anticipate any management changes anytime soon. 🙂 Even if major changes were put in place, it would be years before they were implemented or any positive results realized. For now, it’s a matter of playing chicken with fire season (or dodgeball, whichever you prefer). Not just OSP but all astronomy events in the western US.

[bignick243]

Well the Park Fire blew up since I made the reservations at Likely RV and Golf. Air is hazardous in the area today. Made new plans for Glover Hot Springs instead.

 

The smoke map looks very ugly from areas north of Reno this morning. It is bad most places in northwestern California, Nevada north of Reno and into Oregon.

Scott Manley posted a video where he flew up by the Park fire. It's pretty wild to get a birds eye view of it and just how large it is.

[Alex McConahay]

Finding irony in the situation:

 

So, disappointed after a 1000 mile drive to Oregon, I turn the RV around. And I drive another 1000 miles all the way home.

 

I'm putting the RV away in the garage today, and what should I see on the far wall----right where I left them the whole time? 

 

The truss tubes for my Dob. 

 

It was sad for all, especially the organizers (and the firefighters) that the events were as they were.

 

But I would not have had much observing anyway!!!

 

Alex

[vsteblina]

Should have gone to the Washington State Star Party!! You were only four hours away!!

[bignick243]

Should have gone to the Washington State Star Party!! You were only four hours away!!

Its hot but the conditions here are WSSP are perfect! No smoke! Plus we are getting a bonus airshow!

[GrnXnham]

Its hot but the conditions here are WSSP are perfect! No smoke! Plus we are getting a bonus airshow!

The organizers of this event are simply amazing! I have never been to a star party where they have a military fly-over in celebration of the event! I'm not even sure how they managed to pull this off with the limited budget they have but it was incredible.

[WadeH237]

The organizers of this event are simply amazing! I have never been to a star party where they have a military fly-over in celebration of the event! I'm not even sure how they managed to pull this off with the limited budget they have but it was incredible.

I suspect that Growlers from NAS Whidbey do training exercises in the area.  I saw a few of them when I was at Jameson Lake last month.

[audioaficionado]

Crazy Creek Fire East of Indian Trail Spring campground.

 

https://inciweb.wild...ocf-crazy-creek

[DLuders]

Crazy Creek Fire East of Indian Trail Spring campground.

 

https://inciweb.wild...ocf-crazy-creek

For posterity, here are some screenshots to show HOW CLOSE the Crazy Creek Fire is to the Oregon Star Party site -- it's about 4 MILES away and only 5% contained:

 

 

Edited by DLuders, 04 August 2024 - 10:47 PM.