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SkyWatcher 150p Virtuoso GTI + QHY5III585C v2 = EAA?

EAA Dob Astrophotography
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#1 RodAmbar

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 12:56 PM

Hi everyone!


First post but avid reader of the forums, the wealth of knowledge here is truly amazing.
I’ve been using the Sky-Watcher 150P Virtuoso GTI as my first telescope for over a year now doing mostly visual, but I played around a little with my now ancient Canon T2i. Good fun but my mount can’t handle the weight (650g) when it’s hanging off the side. Crazy off balance no matter how carefully I try the balance it. I fear I might be doing the mount some harm in the process as well, specifically the Altitude axis. 


So I decided to dive into buying a camera and needed some assistance picking a good option.


The Objective:


I want to do EAA. I just want to see more stuff through my bortle 5 sky!
I managed to get SharpCap working with the t2i and respective ascom driver to test drive. Great fun but unsustainable as a setup.

 

Which camera? Limiting factors:


I would not like to spend more than 600 dollars. 
I don’t have a lot of money to swing at my hobby and the next opportunity to buy another camera would probably be a couple of years down the road, so I think I’m looking for a jack of all trades, master of none. I little planetary for fun, a little DSOs for fun.. Something that I can grow with for a while.


 

Options I’ve researched:

I’ve looked into the imx 294s, 183s, 533s and 585, all uncooled to stay inside my budget. I think I’m narrowing down my search between the 533s and the 585s.

 

I’m leaning towards getting the QHY5III585C v2. I'm thinking the form factor (ZWO mini style) will help with maintaining my virtuoso scope properly extended and the light weight is another plus for the balancing. The relatively larger sensor, for this form factor style, is another plus. Would a planetary ZWO style work just as well?
The smaller price tag is a huge plus.. and leaves room in my budget to get some filters possibly?


Does anybody know of an IMX533 camera with this style of uncooled camera?
Am I gonna miss the extra field really bad? Would cheap reducer fix this?

Should I really be looking at another cooled camera? Am I overlooking anything?

Anybody have experience with the QHY5III585C v2 and EAA that they care to share?

As I understand, some imx585s have a HDR mode with wide dynamic range. Does anybody know if the QHY5III585C v2 shares this function?

Many questions and 
many many thanks to all responses!

Links:
https://www.qhyccd.com/qhy5iii585c/
http://skywatcher.co...50-vituoso-gti/
 


Edited by RodAmbar, 12 February 2024 - 01:25 PM.


#2 downerczx

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 03:17 PM

I'm currently in the same boat debating the ASI585MC vs ASI294MC and all of the respective clones. It seems like ASI has a compatibility advantage over everything else, but I like the Player One form factors. The weight on this one is certainly impressive at 90g.


Edited by downerczx, 12 February 2024 - 03:30 PM.


#3 downerczx

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 05:09 PM

Worth noting you have to have an adapter for 1.25". I wonder if you can still use a focal reducer with it.



#4 Jonathan Shields

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Posted 12 February 2024 - 07:06 PM

I have a ZWO 585 and a virtuoso and you just shorten the tube by a couple of centimetres to get rough focus. Mark it with some tape and its easier next time. With a focal reducer you need to shorten a bit more.
With a barlow you can use full extension.

I like the price of the 585 and it does ok for small and medium dsos but for the big nebulae the fov isnt big enough. I can live with that personally. Its also a great planetary camera.

Edited by Jonathan Shields, 12 February 2024 - 07:07 PM.


#5 whiskeyzebra11

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 10:50 AM

I have a ZWO 585 and a virtuoso and you just shorten the tube by a couple of centimetres to get rough focus. Mark it with some tape and its easier next time. With a focal reducer you need to shorten a bit more.
With a barlow you can use full extension.

I like the price of the 585 and it does ok for small and medium dsos but for the big nebulae the fov isnt big enough. I can live with that personally. It’s also a great planetary camera.

Jonathan, you mentioned using a Barlow. Mind sharing the power (2x,3x)? I’ve read that the focal ratio of the virtuoso might be best suited for higher power Barlows but was hoping to hear from someone with real world experience. Any issues with the length/weight of the Barlow and camera for the stock focuser? I’m in the same boat as OP getting ready to buy a camera and was curious if the Barlow worked well for planetary and lunar with this scope. 



#6 Markovich

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Posted 13 February 2024 - 07:31 PM

Im a year into starting EAA and have a SW130PDS ( as well as an AstroTech 72EDII) and I use both 294MC Pro and 585MC cameras.

The 294MC is great for wider fields, but if you go beyond 10-30 sec exposures you'll definitely need to use darks to deal with the noise.

The 585MC is narrower but has less noise and is my main camera for smaller DSOs'



#7 downerczx

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Posted 15 February 2024 - 10:30 AM

So help me out here... if I use a 585 (Uranus-C) with a .33x focal reducer, can I take big DSO pictures? Or, is there some limitation or tradeoff?

 

This calculator seems to show that you can fit Andromeda just fine with the focal reducer.

 

https://astronomy.to...|1|0&messier=31

 

Edit: It seems noone makes a .33 focal reducer, but a .5 almost fits it:

 

https://astronomy.to...|1|0&messier=31


Edited by downerczx, 15 February 2024 - 10:37 AM.


#8 alphatripleplus

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Posted 15 February 2024 - 11:07 AM

So help me out here... if I use a 585 (Uranus-C) with a .33x focal reducer, can I take big DSO pictures? Or, is there some limitation or tradeoff?

 

 

There is indeed a trade-off using additional focal reduction: With a f/5 Newtonian, significant focal reduction - such as your are looking for-  and an IMX585 size sensor, you will most likely see significant aberrations (such as coma) off axis, i.e. away from the centre of the FOV. The more reduction you use, the worse the aberrations will be, and they increase towards the edge of the FOV. 


Edited by alphatripleplus, 15 February 2024 - 11:39 AM.

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#9 downerczx

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Posted 16 February 2024 - 11:25 PM

Well I ordered this camera today. I’ll let you know how it goes with my 150p!

#10 RodAmbar

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 10:44 AM

Hey everybody! Thanks for sharing your comments.

 

I have a ZWO 585 and a virtuoso and you just shorten the tube by a couple of centimetres to get rough focus. Mark it with some tape and its easier next time. With a focal reducer you need to shorten a bit more.
With a barlow you can use full extension.

I like the price of the 585 and it does ok for small and medium dsos but for the big nebulae the fov isnt big enough. I can live with that personally. Its also a great planetary camera.

Nice to know! I also don't mind not being able to fit the biggest DSOs onto the frame. Especially if this means I have a nice camera for planetary in the same package. That's why I've felt so attracted to the 585 sensor size and specs. It seams to fit the "all rounder" idea I was going for. Any thoughts on why you chose the ZWO model specifically? I was hoping the QHY585's design would keep my trusses extended for the most part but I fear this could come at the expense of more heat and thermal noise. Haven't found any information on thermals about this camera which is annoying. 

 

 

Well I ordered this camera today. I’ll let you know how it goes with my 150p!

Hi downerczx! I really liked the Uranus-C packaging of the 585 with the passive heat sink. I almost pulled the trigger on it but I can't seem to find a vendor in the US that carries the camera. Agena Astro doesn't seem to work with Player One anymore and Highpoint doesn't carry them. Did you buy directly from Player One?
I live in Brazil.. This complicates things a bit for me, importing is painfully expensive (rule of thumb is add the camera price and shipping, then double that for the final price). I have a friend who is going to the US next month and wants to bring me the camera as a gift. But that also means I need to deliver the camera to him in a very precise window of opportunity. I fear shipping from china will be a nail biting experience with good chances of failure. 
If you could share your purchase experience that would be helpful! 

I just wish YouTube could have more video-comparisons between camera makers!
Like a runoff. 585 sensor, ZWO planetary, QHY5IIIv2, Player One Uranus-C.. Or a Cooled versions with more manufacturers.
I feel like the image results might not differ too much, but the quality of life options and details might make a huge diference. Drivers, setups, heat dissipation design, connection stability. Cable comes out at a right angle/cable comes out straight from the back? Quality of included accessories.. etc.


Edited by RodAmbar, 19 February 2024 - 01:27 PM.


#11 alphatripleplus

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 05:46 PM

 

 

 

Hi downerczx! I really liked the Uranus-C packaging of the 585 with the passive heat sink. I almost pulled the trigger on it but I can't seem to find a vendor in the US that carries the camera. Agena Astro doesn't seem to work with Player One anymore and Highpoint doesn't carry them. Did you buy directly from Player One?
 

Player One currently has two US dealers, I believe - one in California and one in New York.


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#12 downerczx

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Posted 20 February 2024 - 03:30 PM

To clarify, I ordered the QHY 585 one, not the Player One. Still waiting for it to ship. I decided I liked the low weight of the QHY better. I had the Player One in my comparison because it existed in the database for a comparable camera.

I also contacted Player One to find the weight of the cooled version of Uranus. The regular camera is 160g and the cooler attachment is an extra 60g.

Skywatcher tech support recommended the lightest camera possible.

Also I purchased from High Point Scientific on Friday, still waiting for it to ship.

Edited by downerczx, 20 February 2024 - 03:50 PM.

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#13 RodAmbar

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Posted 22 February 2024 - 05:13 PM

Player One currently has two US dealers, I believe - one in California and one in New York.

Thanks Alpha! Will check them out!
 

To clarify, I ordered the QHY 585 one, not the Player One. Still waiting for it to ship. I decided I liked the low weight of the QHY better. I had the Player One in my comparison because it existed in the database for a comparable camera.

I also contacted Player One to find the weight of the cooled version of Uranus. The regular camera is 160g and the cooler attachment is an extra 60g.

Skywatcher tech support recommended the lightest camera possible.

Also I purchased from High Point Scientific on Friday, still waiting for it to ship.

Oh! I see! That's cool!
Do keep us posted on your adventures. I will quite possibly get an identical setup, probably pulling the trigger in a weeks or so!


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#14 Jonathan Shields

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Posted 25 February 2024 - 05:40 AM

Jonathan, you mentioned using a Barlow. Mind sharing the power (2x,3x)? I’ve read that the focal ratio of the virtuoso might be best suited for higher power Barlows but was hoping to hear from someone with real world experience. Any issues with the length/weight of the Barlow and camera for the stock focuser? I’m in the same boat as OP getting ready to buy a camera and was curious if the Barlow worked well for planetary and lunar with this scope.


I have used a 2x barlow with no issues for planets and also for planetary nebula.
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#15 Jonathan Shields

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Posted 25 February 2024 - 05:44 AM

Hey everybody! Thanks for sharing your comments.

 

Nice to know! I also don't mind not being able to fit the biggest DSOs onto the frame. Especially if this means I have a nice camera for planetary in the same package. That's why I've felt so attracted to the 585 sensor size and specs. It seams to fit the "all rounder" idea I was going for. Any thoughts on why you chose the ZWO model specifically? I was hoping the QHY585's design would keep my trusses extended for the most part but I fear this could come at the expense of more heat and thermal noise. Haven't found any information on thermals about this camera which is annoying. 

 

 

Hi downerczx! I really liked the Uranus-C packaging of the 585 with the passive heat sink. I almost pulled the trigger on it but I can't seem to find a vendor in the US that carries the camera. Agena Astro doesn't seem to work with Player One anymore and Highpoint doesn't carry them. Did you buy directly from Player One?
I live in Brazil.. This complicates things a bit for me, importing is painfully expensive (rule of thumb is add the camera price and shipping, then double that for the final price). I have a friend who is going to the US next month and wants to bring me the camera as a gift. But that also means I need to deliver the camera to him in a very precise window of opportunity. I fear shipping from china will be a nail biting experience with good chances of failure. 
If you could share your purchase experience that would be helpful! 

I just wish YouTube could have more video-comparisons between camera makers!
Like a runoff. 585 sensor, ZWO planetary, QHY5IIIv2, Player One Uranus-C.. Or a Cooled versions with more manufacturers.
I feel like the image results might not differ too much, but the quality of life options and details might make a huge diference. Drivers, setups, heat dissipation design, connection stability. Cable comes out at a right angle/cable comes out straight from the back? Quality of included accessories.. etc.

 In the UK the ZWO brand is widely stocked by the main astrophotography suppliers and theres a lot of people on Youtube etc using them. As it was my first camera that was the only reason for choosing ZWO really. I am sure there are other brands using the same sensors that are worth considering too.


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#16 RodAmbar

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 11:22 AM

Ok everybody!
Took me a while, but I have results!

I purchased the QHY585C. I decided to go with the QHY version for many small reasons.. most of which was the form factor. Tiny, light and a design that protruded the sensor into the Virtuosos focuser instead of hanging outside. The idea being that This would facilitate the use of focal reducer without having to colapse the truss rods too much. More on this later..

I have a Beelink mini PC with the 5560u CPU. I use it as a home server and now as a astro PC for my Sharp Cap sessions.
This whole operation is my first endeavor into EAA.. and setting everything up to work has been a bit of a steep learning curve. Especially setting up the PC (Cuiv's guide to setup auto wifi on startup was crucial!).
PC was setup and this weekend the camera arrived!

First hoop was getting the camera to work! I spent over 2 hours just getting it to show up in sharp cap. I reinstalled the driver some 3-4 times. Rebooted. Reinstalled sharp cap. Reinstalled Ascom driver.. Turns out the included USB C cable that came with my camera was DOA. Had another cable in a drawer and we were finally up and running!

Tested focusing and surprise! The guide cam mini design has a hard time achieving focus without a reducer. It's 100% possible.. you either need to unscrew a lot of the focus travel out, or have the camera nestled quite a ways far back in the focuser.. This was a quick fix though! I have a Apertura 2x barlow that I can unscrew the lens element from and use it with the camera. Perfect!

The reducer setup was tricky. I got a cheap SvBony 1.25" 0.5x reducer.. If I screwed the reducer onto the front end of the camera, it was too close to the sensor to have e meaningful reducing effect. If I screwed it onto the end of the Apertura barlow as a substitute for the barlow lens, it was way too much reducing.. I figured a good compromise unscrewing the metallic front end and placing the reducer upside-down in the middle. Check picture!

IMG_6029 Medium.jpeg

First night had some low clouds but a pristine sky above it! So I went out, got it all setup for the first time in my backyard. Managed to do a little testing when the clouds broke up.. Got Sharp Cap to but didn't do any Dark frame subtration, so lots of colourful hotpixels everywhere. Looked like someone threw confetti at the image! smile.gif
2024-04-02T13.38.18 Large.jpeg
Omega Centauri

Last night had horrible weather.. Cloudy and hazzy skies. But I really wanted to take the rig out and play around with it. I had a few objectives. I wanted to try and sync up the mount with SharpCap and use SharpCap for everything, enable the Dark frame subtraction and use the reducer for imaging for the first time. SUPER HAPPY I did, shooting through the horrible conditions and losing a ton of frames in the processes.. I got these in the bag in my first real EAA session!

Stack_358frames_1432s_WithDisplayStretch Medium.jpeg
Lagoon Nebula

Stack_491frames_1964s_WithDisplayStretch Medium.jpeg

Eagle Nebula

Stack_491frames_1964s_WithDisplayStretch Large.jpeg
Crop of Pillars

Stack_241frames_964s_WithDisplayStretch Small.jpeg

Centaurus A (with a light leak from a nearby street lamp)

I was up quite late..

Setup works quite well! I'm quite new to this but I'm quite happy with the QHY model (dead cable notwithstanding)!


Edited by RodAmbar, 03 April 2024 - 11:24 AM.

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#17 whiskeyzebra11

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 07:35 PM

I have the same scope and just getting started with EAA myself. Different camera (ASI678), but happy to see others being successful with the Virtuoso 150p. In my novice opinion, I think you're off to a great start. Even with the hot pixels, that Omega Centauri looks impressive. If I may ask, have you had good results with the Virtuoso mount's tracking? Once I have a target centered, it usually takes some playing with up/down/point & track/repeat to get it to settle down and keep the target centered. Have you had a similar experience or found any tricks to get consistently good tracking? 



#18 Jonathan Shields

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Posted 04 April 2024 - 02:20 AM

You got some great captures. I actually think this is a great setup for the budget. I have the same setup but with the ZWO585. Its cool you got the 1.25 reducer to work....it caused horrible vignetting for me but i had it on the end of the nosepiece. I also tried a 2 inch reducer right in front of the camera using an m42>m48 adapter then the reducer, then an m48>m42 adapter then the nosepiece which works a bit better.

The Virtuoso tracking is indeed a pain. I haven't really found a solution better than nudging it in the direction of the drift until it stops. Selecting "Point and track" at that point seems to stop further drift.

Edited by Jonathan Shields, 04 April 2024 - 02:21 AM.

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#19 RodAmbar

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Posted 04 April 2024 - 09:59 AM

I have the same scope and just getting started with EAA myself. Different camera (ASI678), but happy to see others being successful with the Virtuoso 150p. In my novice opinion, I think you're off to a great start. Even with the hot pixels, that Omega Centauri looks impressive. If I may ask, have you had good results with the Virtuoso mount's tracking? Once I have a target centered, it usually takes some playing with up/down/point & track/repeat to get it to settle down and keep the target centered. Have you had a similar experience or found any tricks to get consistently good tracking?


Hi Whiskey, all I can say is a huge yes!
And like Jonathan, all I’ve been able to figure is you need to keep pushing against the drift until it settles.
I have no idea why, but I think is just a general sloppiness in the gearing that needs help to clear up.

But I also feel like there’s a second kind of drift that happens later after this settles. Usually a slower drift in a specific direction/vector. I managed to mostly clear this one up with the Plate solve and resync function in sharp cap.
I think sometimes it’s just an inaccuracy of the mounts position with relation to the sky and as it try’s to track, it tracks poorly.

I feel like our mount is capable, but it’s not a champ..
I just wish sharp cap could plate solve and use the plate solving to nudge and adjust the tracking, like a guiding scope, but with much lower polling rate.
I don’t need sub arc second tracking to lock my pixels in place.. just keep the subject of the picture in center of the frame.

I’ve heard that shapcap has some function, but I haven’t been able to figure it out.

#20 RodAmbar

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Posted 04 April 2024 - 10:09 AM

http://docs.sharpcap...ureTracking.htm

I wonder if this Feature Tracking function can help us with that.
The doc describes it as being designed for lunar, solar, planetary use.

#21 Jonathan Shields

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Posted 04 April 2024 - 03:13 PM

Hi Whiskey, all I can say is a huge yes!
And like Jonathan, all I’ve been able to figure is you need to keep pushing against the drift until it settles.
I have no idea why, but I think is just a general sloppiness in the gearing that needs help to clear up.

But I also feel like there’s a second kind of drift that happens later after this settles. Usually a slower drift in a specific direction/vector. I managed to mostly clear this one up with the Plate solve and resync function in sharp cap.
I think sometimes it’s just an inaccuracy of the mounts position with relation to the sky and as it try’s to track, it tracks poorly.

I feel like our mount is capable, but it’s not a champ..
I just wish sharp cap could plate solve and use the plate solving to nudge and adjust the tracking, like a guiding scope, but with much lower polling rate.
I don’t need sub arc second tracking to lock my pixels in place.. just keep the subject of the picture in center of the frame.

I’ve heard that shapcap has some function, but I haven’t been able to figure it out.

You can use the guiding tab and there is a check box at the end you can use even if you are not doing proper guiding, which recenters the image if it drifts beyond a certain number of pixels. The problem is when it does that it starts the drifting again. Its a shame.
The other thing i have tried is pausing the stack and changing to view individual frames then moving it as near as possible to its previous position, then nudging it to cancel the drift, then restarting the stack. If you are looking at something smallish in the middle of the frame it can work, but it doesn't work so well for something which fills up the frame.

Its a shame the drift cant be fixed (yet) as that is the only serious obstacle with the setup.

One day I will buy an EQ mount but until then i can live with it.

Edited by Jonathan Shields, 04 April 2024 - 03:14 PM.

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#22 whiskeyzebra11

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Posted 08 April 2024 - 11:52 AM

Regarding the tracking, I did run across this CN post about using PHD2 and a guide camera with alt-az mounts. I do not have a second camera or guide scope to test it out, so just sharing in case anyone was interested.



#23 downerczx

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Posted 17 April 2024 - 02:14 PM

Wow! Thanks for posting RodAmbar! I haven't had time to get my setup going well yet but you've inspired me. Been waiting on PC for setup, should have shortly.


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#24 downerczx

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Posted 10 May 2024 - 09:25 PM

I'm trying to do a similar setup, but with the focal reducer I see the collimator triangle of the telescope. Okay, moving the post in a bit made a difference.

 

Clear skies tonight! See if I can get something!


Edited by downerczx, 10 May 2024 - 09:49 PM.

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