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Early Takahashi triplets

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#1 starman876

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Posted 16 February 2024 - 02:55 PM

I own several of the early Takahashi triplets known as the TS series.    The two short focal length ones I have both show come fogging of the elements.  The longer focal length versions do not.  Does anyone know why this is?


Edited by starman876, 16 February 2024 - 02:56 PM.

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#2 Astrojensen

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Posted 16 February 2024 - 04:10 PM

The glass used might have been somewhat hygroscopic, IE it absorbs moisture. I don't know where you've got them from, but Japanese summers are notoriously hot and humid, which will exacerbate the issue. I've seen quite a few Tak triplets and early Fluorites with foggy lenses on Japanese Yahoo. 

 

My late mentor Per Darnell had a Tak TS 65/500, sold under the Swift brand, and it had crystal clear optics, so I suspect it's not just the glass, the climate in which it is used/stored also has a major influence. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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#3 CHASLX200

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Posted 16 February 2024 - 07:59 PM

I love the gray stuff.



#4 luxo II

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 01:57 AM

Re the haze in early Tak doublets… this article offers an alternative view…

 

“… some early Takahashi fluorite objectives (especially the FC-65 for some reason) are prone to develop haze. However, it turns out that this is due to deterioration or the flint mating element, not the fluorite!…”

 

http://scopeviews.co.uk/Fluorite.htm

 

Yes it’s soft, easily damaged, but it’s not hygroscopic.


Edited by luxo II, 17 February 2024 - 03:08 AM.

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#5 starman876

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 09:04 AM

I love the gray stuff.

what does that have to do with lenses?


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#6 starman876

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 09:10 AM

Re the haze in early Tak doublets… this article offers an alternative view…

 

“… some early Takahashi fluorite objectives (especially the FC-65 for some reason) are prone to develop haze. However, it turns out that this is due to deterioration or the flint mating element, not the fluorite!…”

 

http://scopeviews.co.uk/Fluorite.htm

 

Yes it’s soft, easily damaged, but it’s not hygroscopic.

Great article.  Thanks



#7 starman876

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 09:11 AM

The glass used might have been somewhat hygroscopic, IE it absorbs moisture. I don't know where you've got them from, but Japanese summers are notoriously hot and humid, which will exacerbate the issue. I've seen quite a few Tak triplets and early Fluorites with foggy lenses on Japanese Yahoo. 

 

My late mentor Per Darnell had a Tak TS 65/500, sold under the Swift brand, and it had crystal clear optics, so I suspect it's not just the glass, the climate in which it is used/stored also has a major influence. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

I suspect you are correct.   A lot of lenses that come from coastal areas always seem to have issues. 


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#8 PawPaw

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 11:49 AM

I own several of the early Takahashi triplets known as the TS series.    The two short focal length ones I have both show come fogging of the elements.  The longer focal length versions do not.  Does anyone know why this is?

There are a few archived threads from a very knowledgeable CN member (n2086dd....Hiromu) on  this subject.  The majority of these threads are about the early fluorite Tak objectives clouding than the earlier TS triplets.  Post # 76 on this thread talks about the TS 65P:  https://www.cloudyni...-is-here/page-4

 

Koji also discusses and shows pictures of a  cloudy TS 65P he resurrected:

https://astromart.co...end-as-real-use

 

Last year I acquired a TS 65P from Japan that had a cloudy front element.  From the pictures in the ad it did not look terrible so I took a chance since several posts from Hiromu stated even the cloudy elements he had experience with performed well.  I followed Koji's method noted above for cleaning.  Koji noted the front element of his TS 65P had an oil type of coating and the lens cleaner he used was made in the USA.  He did not name the cleaning product he used.  

 

When mine arrived the objective was very cloudy and it looked like R2, the eye side of the front element was the culprit.  I tested via DPAC before deciding on cleaning.  DPAC was excellent.  When I disassembled the lens original orientation marks were evident and in alignment.  Only the front (sky) element showed clouding.  The middle and back element were clean.  First cleaning was dawn soap under water followed by a distilled water rinse.  After drying the front element still had the same cloudiness.  No apparent change so I took an educated guess on the cleaner Koji used and tried Windex.  After multiple cleanings using Koji's method the cloudiness was removed.  I followed the final Windex cleaning with a distilled rinse.   My suspicion is the coating on the front element (R2) facing the middle Flint slowly broke down while the middle and back elements (both sides)  were completely unaffected.  This raises another question,  at least for me,  did Takahashi use a different coating on the front elements of the TS 65P?  Both the middle and back element on mine showed zero effects of any coating deterioration and did not need any cleaning.  If the coating actually outgassed (causing the cloudiness)  why wasn't R3, the flint facing the front element affected?    

 

Before and after pics of front element.

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Edited by PawPaw, 17 February 2024 - 12:22 PM.

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#9 CHASLX200

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 11:55 AM

what does that have to do with lenses?

The optics were great in the gray stuff. Has plenty to do with it.



#10 PawPaw

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 12:17 PM

I should note that besides my TS 65P I have two TS-80's, one a Semi-Apo (1977),  the other an Apo (1978).  Both show no signs of coating breakdown.  

 

Here is a pic of the TS 65P after reassembly.  

 

 

 

 

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#11 starman876

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 02:18 PM

The optics were great in the gray stuff. Has plenty to do with it.

I thought you were talking about the grey mounts. 



#12 starman876

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 02:20 PM

There are a few archived threads from a very knowledgeable CN member (n2086dd....Hiromu) on  this subject.  The majority of these threads are about the early fluorite Tak objectives clouding than the earlier TS triplets.  Post # 76 on this thread talks about the TS 65P:  https://www.cloudyni...-is-here/page-4

 

Koji also discusses and shows pictures of a  cloudy TS 65P he resurrected:

https://astromart.co...end-as-real-use

 

Last year I acquired a TS 65P from Japan that had a cloudy front element.  From the pictures in the ad it did not look terrible so I took a chance since several posts from Hiromu stated even the cloudy elements he had experience with performed well.  I followed Koji's method noted above for cleaning.  Koji noted the front element of his TS 65P had an oil type of coating and the lens cleaner he used was made in the USA.  He did not name the cleaning product he used.  

 

When mine arrived the objective was very cloudy and it looked like R2, the eye side of the front element was the culprit.  I tested via DPAC before deciding on cleaning.  DPAC was excellent.  When I disassembled the lens original orientation marks were evident and in alignment.  Only the front (sky) element showed clouding.  The middle and back element were clean.  First cleaning was dawn soap under water followed by a distilled water rinse.  After drying the front element still had the same cloudiness.  No apparent change so I took an educated guess on the cleaner Koji used and tried Windex.  After multiple cleanings using Koji's method the cloudiness was removed.  I followed the final Windex cleaning with a distilled rinse.   My suspicion is the coating on the front element (R2) facing the middle Flint slowly broke down while the middle and back elements (both sides)  were completely unaffected.  This raises another question,  at least for me,  did Takahashi use a different coating on the front elements of the TS 65P?  Both the middle and back element on mine showed zero effects of any coating deterioration and did not need any cleaning.  If the coating actually outgassed (causing the cloudiness)  why wasn't R3, the flint facing the front element affected?    

 

Before and after pics of front element.

Windex is the magic cure.  Interesting.  Will give that a try on one of them.



#13 CHASLX200

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 03:42 PM

I thought you were talking about the grey mounts. 

They were much better with the SL-MO's vs the green mounts that are GO-TO. Who wants a green anyways for a mount?



#14 ccwemyss

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 11:02 PM

They were much better with the SL-MO's vs the green mounts that are GO-TO. Who wants a green anyways for a mount?

The Pentax mounts, which are very nice, are green. So are some of the well-respected Vixens. 

 

Chip W. 


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#15 Kasmos

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Posted 18 February 2024 - 03:32 AM

Windex is the magic cure.  Interesting.  Will give that a try on one of them.

I love Windex.

 

I had two old Sky Chiefs which had dust left from disintegrated factory foam rubber pads in their boxes and both had foam partitcles all over the objectives, tubes, etc. The only thing that would get it off the objectives was a soak in a bath of 50/50 Water and Windex.

 

Later I noticed Tele-Vue recommends Windex for the same kind of problem in paragraph 4.

 

https://www.televue.... any more dust.


Edited by Kasmos, 18 February 2024 - 03:35 AM.

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#16 CHASLX200

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Posted 18 February 2024 - 06:58 AM

The Pentax mounts, which are very nice, are green. So are some of the well-respected Vixens. 

 

Chip W. 

Gray just sets it off so much better.



#17 Bomber Bob

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Posted 18 February 2024 - 08:51 AM

I own several of the early Takahashi triplets known as the TS series.    The two short focal length ones I have both show come fogging of the elements.  The longer focal length versions do not.  Does anyone know why this is?

Based on what I saw restoring that 1970s Lafayette (SYW) 60 F7salty water / air is the most likely corrosive agent -- it left a thin crusty residue along the lens edge.  It also turned the exposed aluminum (unpainted tube ends) into fragile chalk.



#18 starman876

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Posted 18 February 2024 - 09:39 AM

Based on what I saw restoring that 1970s Lafayette (SYW) 60 F7salty water / air is the most likely corrosive agent -- it left a thin crusty residue along the lens edge.  It also turned the exposed aluminum (unpainted tube ends) into fragile chalk.

Yes, salt water is death for many telescope parts.   You wonder why does a major supplier of telescopes on a island surrounded by salt water would not make their telescopes more resistant to salt water and the corrosive elements in that environment.   Good thing most of the products were shipped someplace safe like the USA, well coastal communities not included.



#19 CHASLX200

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Posted 18 February 2024 - 10:24 AM

Salt air is a killer where i am. Tools rust in the house it is so bad.



#20 Mike_vs_Mosquitoes

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Posted 18 February 2024 - 01:15 PM

I should note that besides my TS 65P I have two TS-80's, one a Semi-Apo (1977),  the other an Apo (1978).  Both show no signs of coating breakdown.  

 

Here is a pic of the TS 65P after reassembly.  

great job on that lens cleaning , please show us some pics of that rare TS-80 apo  !!


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#21 PawPaw

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 09:05 AM

Thanks Mike! 

 

Removing the fog on the TS 65P did take some patience.  As koji noted it took him 1 week 10 times a day to complete the removal of the fog.  I accomplished mine in 2 days.  I do not know what caused the fogging. All I can confirm is the fogging on mine was completely removed with Windex.   The lens looks new now.  Keep in mind this is only one sample.  

 

The OP started this thread specifically on the TS series triplets which include, to my knowledge, only seven models.  The TS 65D,  TS 65P,  TS 65S,  TS 80 Semi-Apo,  TS 80 APO,  TS 90F The first fluorite triplet and the TS 90S Semi APO triplet.  Both my TS 80's are in excellent condition for being 47 and 48 years old.  Other than some dust and very few condensation spots there is no reason to disassemble the objectives for cleaning.  Takahashi made a big statement when they released these as they were competing with Goto and Nikon.  If you have not yet seen Dave Trott's Takahashi series videos I highly recommend them.  Specifically here is his TS-80 video:   https://www.youtube....h?v=v1jbt6jU-QY

 

TS 80 APO:

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#22 starman876

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 09:15 AM

Dave does have some nice videos


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#23 Bomber Bob

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 09:22 AM

All I can confirm is the fogging on mine was completely removed with Windex.

 

That's a factoid we need to retain.  I used Glass Plus, both before & after the Lysol Bleach Cleaner on my badly fogged TS-65P Flint Element.  I attributed the best fog removal to the Lysol, but the Glass Plus may have been better than I thought.


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#24 Mike_vs_Mosquitoes

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 09:44 AM

wow ! what a beauty !  thanks for sharing PawPaw  waytogo.gif



#25 Lagrange

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 01:29 PM

Yes, salt water is death for many telescope parts.   You wonder why does a major supplier of telescopes on a island surrounded by salt water would not make their telescopes more resistant to salt water and the corrosive elements in that environment.   Good thing most of the products were shipped someplace safe like the USA, well coastal communities not included.

Short flint glass tends to be a lot more prone to degrading but these problems seem to have developed over quite a long time. My guess is that when these scopes were designed the glass they chose was thought to be durable enough especially when it was coated and it was only much later that these issues started to appear.

 

Modern glass might be more thoroughly tested so that its durability is better understood. Modern hard coatings are also much better than what was available back then which enables the use of glass that would otherwise be too delicate to put in a telescope.


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