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How much power per inch in your classic?

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#101 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:06 PM

I've only had the 4 inch Edmund since late summer last year and haven't had too many viewing opportunities due to work related travel and weather, but I'm beginning to think my seeing here in the central part of FL isn't as good overall as it can get on the coast(s) or especially down in the Keys. It might be specific to my location , things such as the location of neighboring houses relative to the direction im viewing, or a large stand of trees to the SE that might be releasing heat late into the night perhaps? I do seem to recall last summer the seeing be pretty bad after sunset as well,  but early AM being better, something like a 7 on the Pickering scale occasionally. On the moon and Jupiter the most power I've used is ~235x. Still trying to get a session with good seeing with the 6 inch F10 to see what it's capable of. 

My seeing was better more times living on the bay in Tampa vs me being 1000 yards from the gulf now. But i avg very good seeing in the am in the late spring thru summer. Plus am is better with less bugs and lights and i am not a nite person. I wake up around 3am and ready to jump all over. By 9pm i am in bed fighting to stay away looking at TV.


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#102 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:10 PM

Charles opening post said

 

"What is the most pow wow you ever used in your classic on a dead still nite?  I have had no trouble at 100x+ per inch on SOME OBJECTS.  This is just for kicks as it seems many take it the wrong way."

It is even mentioned in the opening post "This is just for kicks" 

we were responding with light hearted fun about using crazy high powers.  I do not see anyone mocking the poster. I do see others mocking each other about what they posted about crazy high powers.   This has been a fun post about a subject that all of us have experienced.  

My other thread in refractors got a lot of action and many seem to try very high pow wow's for kicks. As i keep typing, no one is being forced to use such powers. But everyone should try for fun anyways.



#103 starman876

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:11 PM

I need to buy a swamp. 


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#104 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:14 PM

wish I could control the jet stream so I could move it somewhere else when I view.  

Move.  Try FL on the gulf, Keep your boat at our own dock.  We have nasty summers but the seeing can be dead still for nutty powers.



#105 starman876

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:17 PM

My other thread in refractors got a lot of action and many seem to try very high pow wow's for kicks. As i keep typing, no one is being forced to use such powers. But everyone should try for fun anyways.

Oh I am sure we all have pushed our scopes hoping we would see something we have never see before.  I know I have tried plenty of times.   However, it was never fully happy with the results.  So I just stay within the limits of reason.   You know how it goes, you know your scope and eyepieces and know what kind of results you have gotten in the past so just like Clint said

" a man has to know his limitations"


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#106 starman876

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:18 PM

Move.  Try FL on the gulf, Keep your boat at our own dock.  We have nasty summers but the seeing can be dead still for nutty powers.

 

Move.  Try FL on the gulf, Keep your boat at our own dock.  We have nasty summers but the seeing can be dead still for nutty powers.

I really do not want to move to an area that sooner or later is going to be blown away or under water.  I am pretty safe where I am.  I am in no mode to play survival.  


Edited by starman876, 21 February 2024 - 07:19 PM.

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#107 Joe Cepleur

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:32 PM

As I speculated above, there is more to vision than resolution. The visual system is finely tuned to motion, particularly in the periphery where resolution is terrible! We in the South are plagued by palmetto bugs, which are roaches the size of Buicks. These things are not only gross, they are phenomenally stupid, and blunder around at random, begging for a dose of Raid. I can ALWAYS see these nasty things long before they are allowed to surprise me. It always amazes me how in a dim room where I am reading a computer screen, I can STILL see the faint hints of motion in the far corner of my vision. That is not a matter of resolution. However I am seeing this, it is not because I can resolve a roach across the room 40 or more degrees off axis.

High magnification will absolutely be a benefit to that way of seeing. A roach the size of a sneaker would occasion more than annoyance. (So far, we are just short of sneakers. Global warming has been kind to the roaches, and they are getting up there is size.)

-drl


I feel your pain. We in the Frozen North lack palmetto bugs, although we have four-engined mosquitos that are rumored to have their origins from interbreeding with our moose.

I can begin to see how our glorious forum can arguably (for that does appear to be the word!) sustain two threads and an aside in the "Lure of Questar" pages, all pertaining to futzing over whether the Gods of Physics may choose to allow this or that astronomer, with this or that telescope, to have been truly successful in observing with the more truly impossibly high magnification per inch of aperture. If I finally understand, the problem is that there is no one answer.

The telescope contains a number of contributing factors: the aperture, the smoothness of the optics, the perfection of the figure, the size of the central obstruction (if there is one), and the focal length (because longer is more forgiving). Thus your six-inch Astro-Physics or 3.5-inch Questar may both beat my best 60mm, yet may (or may not?) themselves be upstaged by the beautifully figured 16-inch Newtonian at my club. Lots of factors here, rather than one rule declaring, for all scopes and all time, the highest power per inch of aperture that may be possible. There is probably an equation describing this. As a practical matter, "fifty to sixty power per inch" likely covers most possibilities.

That's theory. Also as a practical matter, my sense of maxing out at 30x/inch may well be honest in practice for my typical seeing, my vision, my telescopes, and my skills.
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#108 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:34 PM

I really do not want to move to an area that sooner or later is going to be blown away or under water.  I am pretty safe where I am.  I am in no mode to play survival.  

As long as i live close by you will never have a cane. Lived here all my life and never even had a twig blow off a tree.  As for being under water you got around 150 years before it becomes a prob less than a  mile from the coast thanks to a super heating planet.


Edited by CHASLX200, 21 February 2024 - 07:34 PM.


#109 starman876

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:47 PM

it is all subjective to your eyes, your seeing, your telescope plus your patience.   You might have to sit there for hours to get the rare glimpse of seeing in where everything comes together.   I have had those moments.  In where for a brief moment all of a sudden I see things I have never seen before.  Like the night I saw blue nebulosity in the Pleiades star cluster from my back yard in Washington DC. An amazing feat in this light polluted land.  Another where I was cruising Jupiter at around 200 power and all of a sudden the detail in the belts the red spot with detail all came together.  Another rare moment.   But what good are those moments at ridiculous high powers when I will have no clue what I am looking at.  I will stay within the norm of telescope operation to ensure that I do not miss any pf those wonderful fleeting moments where everything come together and I have the view of a lifetime.


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#110 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 07:53 PM

it is all subjective to your eyes, your seeing, your telescope plus your patience.   You might have to sit there for hours to get the rare glimpse of seeing in where everything comes together.   I have had those moments.  In where for a brief moment all of a sudden I see things I have never seen before.  Like the night I saw blue nebulosity in the Pleiades star cluster from my back yard in Washington DC. An amazing feat in this light polluted land.  Another where I was cruising Jupiter at around 200 power and all of a sudden the detail in the belts the red spot with detail all came together.  Another rare moment.   But what good are those moments at ridiculous high powers when I will have no clue what I am looking at.  I will stay within the norm of telescope operation to ensure that I do not miss any pf those wonderful fleeting moments where everything come together and I have the view of a lifetime.

Best chance of it all being perfect is 430am in the late spring thru summer.  You can about bet on 8+ seeing about everytime.  Details just snap on Jup when ya got good optics and seeing. Tonite it would be mush city with cold and dropping temps and Jup is getting lower everyday. So it's done for this go around. Mars has a long way to go and Sat won't be good again for a few months. . So i am pretty much done until late July so selling it all off and making some room.  Maybe get a big Mak for late summer.  And i don't mean a MC D's big Mak.


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#111 Rick-T137

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 08:00 PM

Best chance of it all being perfect is 430am in the late spring thru summer.  You can about bet on 8+ seeing about everytime.  Details just snap on Jup when ya got good optics and seeing. Tonite it would be mush city with cold and dropping temps and Jup is getting lower everyday. So it's done for this go around. Mars has a long way to go and Sat won't be good again for a few months. . So i am pretty much done until late July so selling it all off and making some room.  Maybe get a big Mak for late summer.  And i don't mean a MC D's big Mak.

Have you ever had one of those Russian made Maks? I heard they have some sweet optics and can support some high powers. And they're properly baffled (as I usually am as well!).

 

Clear skies!

 

Rick



#112 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 08:04 PM

Have you ever had one of those Russian made Maks? I heard they have some sweet optics and can support some high powers. And they're properly baffled (as I usually am as well!).

 

Clear skies!

 

 Had  a Q7 years ago for like 6 weeks on a cold winter.  And some mass made smaller Maks to 6". There is a 7 and 8" Maks close by and may try one of them.  Big Maks cost real money.


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#113 CHASLX200

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Posted 22 February 2024 - 06:57 PM

I need to buy a swamp. 

Need to try new things. Try 250x in a 60mm on Venus.



#114 Joe Cepleur

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 12:12 AM

I'll try it! What should I expect? Just a few days ago, I tried 200 power on the Moon while experimenting with stacked Barlows; how will the view change with the next 50 power?

As resolution goes, a 60mm (2.4 inch) telescope is capable of 120x at 50x/inch. If you buy that 60x/inch works, then 145x may be possible. If you believe (as I have found to be true under my wobbly skies) that 30x/inch is about most possible under local conditions, then 70x is more typical.

At 200x in my 60mm, I saw craters on the Moon dimmed and enlarged, not as clear or pleasing a view as at lower powers. But, Venus is a different object. Even in larger telescopes, I have only ever seen it as a bright disk or crescent. How will that change if I crank the power to 250x? What change—any improvement?—should I expect to see in the eyepiece?

Edited by Joe Cepleur, 23 February 2024 - 10:15 PM.


#115 deSitter

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 12:33 AM

I'll try it! What should I expect? Just a few days ago, I tried 200 power on the Moon while experimenting with stacked Barlows; how will the view change with the next 50 power?

As resolution goes, a 60mm (2.4 inch) telescope is capable of 120x at 50x/inch. If you buy that 60x/inch works, then 145x may be possible. If you believe (as I have found to be true under my wobbly skies) that 30/inch is about most possible under local conditions, then 70x is more typical.

At 200x in my 60mm, I saw craters on the Moon dimmed and enlarged, not as clear or pleasing a view as at lower powers. But, Venus is a different object. Even in larger telescopes, I have only ever seen it as a bright disk or crescent. How will that change if I crank the power to 250x? What change—any improvement?—should I expect to see in the eyepiece?

You cannot judge optics with additional complicated items in the train. Use a 4mm eyepiece with a f/15 refractor to get extreme power, 6mm for very high power, 9mm for high power. Barlows add aberrations of their own, no matter how well made. You want something as simple as possible. If you have Huygens eyepieces around, use those. As little extra glass as possible.

 

-drl



#116 deSitter

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 12:42 AM

The concept of maximum useful magnification was accurately discussed in "Sky Observer's Guide" (p. 17-18), a little book that is crammed with good information, and one I would recommend to beginners. The fuzzy views of Saturn and Archimedes were exactly reproduced in my 6344 at 300x. Backing off to 200x restored the sharpness and backing off even more to 167x brought in sharp details that were tending to get lost in the dim view. It was eye-opening and from that day forward I understood the problem in my eyes, if not completely in my head yet.

 

-drl

 

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#117 CHASLX200

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 06:49 AM

I'll try it! What should I expect? Just a few days ago, I tried 200 power on the Moon while experimenting with stacked Barlows; how will the view change with the next 50 power?

As resolution goes, a 60mm (2.4 inch) telescope is capable of 120x at 50x/inch. If you buy that 60x/inch works, then 145x may be possible. If you believe (as I have found to be true under my wobbly skies) that 30/inch is about most possible under local conditions, then 70x is more typical.

At 200x in my 60mm, I saw craters on the Moon dimmed and enlarged, not as clear or pleasing a view as at lower powers. But, Venus is a different object. Even in larger telescopes, I have only ever seen it as a bright disk or crescent. How will that change if I crank the power to 250x? What change—any improvement?—should I expect to see in the eyepiece?

I guess it will vary by person. I have used 250x in a 60mm for the moon and Venus.  Yes the view gets dimmer but image is bigger and sometimes it is just fun to blow things up.



#118 CHASLX200

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 06:50 AM

You cannot judge optics with additional complicated items in the train. Use a 4mm eyepiece with a f/15 refractor to get extreme power, 6mm for very high power, 9mm for high power. Barlows add aberrations of their own, no matter how well made. You want something as simple as possible. If you have Huygens eyepieces around, use those. As little extra glass as possible.

 

-drl

That old SR 4mm is hard to use.  A 4mm Delite will be much better.



#119 deSitter

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:13 AM

That old SR 4mm is hard to use.  A 4mm Delite will be much better.

No it would not. Period.

 

-drl



#120 CHASLX200

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 07:38 AM

No it would not. Period.

 

-drl

Well for me it would.



#121 starman876

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:14 AM

Well for me it would.

I think he is trying to tell you to judge the optics an eyepiece with the least amount of glass in it works best.   A delite has a lot of glass in it.   This is a very technical discussion.  



#122 CHASLX200

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:37 AM

I think he is trying to tell you to judge the optics an eyepiece with the least amount of glass in it works best.   A delite has a lot of glass in it.   This is a very technical discussion.  

A Delite is better than any of them older .965 OD eyepieces.  No nose bleed ER and a much wider FOV.



#123 deSitter

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:46 AM

A Delite is better than any of them older .965 OD eyepieces.  No nose bleed ER and a much wider FOV.

Not - for - optical - evaluation. All you need is the dead center of the eyepiece. The fact that is is not to your taste is irrelevant.

 

-drl



#124 CHASLX200

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:52 AM

Not - for - optical - evaluation. All you need is the dead center of the eyepiece. The fact that is is not to your taste is irrelevant.

 

-drl

Well i don't need to get down to that much nitty gritty kitty. I only use what eyepieces i got. They are all loaded with glass.  My eyes are past the point to even try.



#125 photiost

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 09:58 AM

The concept of maximum useful magnification was accurately discussed in "Sky Observer's Guide" (p. 17-18), a little book that is crammed with good information, and one I would recommend to beginners. The fuzzy views of Saturn and Archimedes were exactly reproduced in my 6344 at 300x. Backing off to 200x restored the sharpness and backing off even more to 167x brought in sharp details that were tending to get lost in the dim view. It was eye-opening and from that day forward I understood the problem in my eyes, if not completely in my head yet.

 

-drl

After 40+ years I still have that book and it is one of my favorites  !!


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