90 replies to this topic

[rodneydp]

Thanks. The key for me is that Vaonis patents are spoken about online as a barrier to other scope companies implementing any kind of "mosaic" feature and I see nothing in these patents that would indicate this

 

I found US patents D853462 & D940221 fairly easily. These patents refer to an "Astrograph" so probably incorporate the combination of software and hardware: the patent holders are Benjamin Sabourin & Nicolas Marquis (co-founders of Ova Design - industrial Design consultancy) & Cyril Dupuy (founder of Vaonis). Both patents are assigned to Vaonis.

 

I can't find any patents for Covalens itself, but that's not a surprise as algorithms and software in general is much harder to patent than to describe a hybrid system like the Vespera in which the software is embedded and described by function. There's nothing to stop another manufacturer developing their own "mosaic mode" - lots of digital cameras and phones have them (panoramas) but if the whole system looks and works too much like a Vaonis scope, they could be infringing the patent (and there will be copyright in the code)

[tarbat]

Can anybody actually point us to this Vaonis mosaic patent that keeps being discussed?

https://data.inpi.fr...84?q=#FR3115384

 

Includes these diagrams of how CovalENS works.  It's an idea based on older articles (mentioned in the patent) about how to make a milky way arch panorama. Current status is "Preliminary research report", so I'm not sure if the patent has been granted.

 

 

 

QUOTE: "and the acquisition, over time, of a plurality of raw images defining a plurality of different portions of said scene, two successive portions of said plurality of portions having at least one common part, said plurality of raw images corresponding respectively to a plurality of positions of said optical axis".

Edited by tarbat, 17 July 2024 - 11:21 AM.

[chrisecurtis]

https://data.inpi.fr...84?q=#FR3115384

 

Includes these diagrams of how CovalENS works.  It's an idea based on older articles (mentioned in the patent) about how to make a milky way arch panorama. Current status is "Preliminary research report", so I'm not sure if the patent has been granted.

 

1.jpg

 

 

QUOTE: "and the acquisition, over time, of a plurality of raw images defining a plurality of different portions of said scene, two successive portions of said plurality of portions having at least one common part, said plurality of raw images corresponding respectively to a plurality of positions of said optical axis".

That is actually a granted patent (brevet d'invention) FR3115384 - Procédé et dispositif d’imagerie astronomique en champ élargi

("Expanded field astronomical imaging method and device") - I didn't find it because it doesn't use the "Covalens" name - which is probably a marketing term!

 

It covers both the design of the Vaonis robots (e.g. able to be moved in altitude and azimuth and with plate-solving capability) and the "spiral" process of taking a number of frames so that part of the frames overlap.

Edited by chrisecurtis, 17 July 2024 - 02:08 PM.

[Psion]

Seestar can make a simple mosaic like this. However, the beauty of CovalENS is not the mosaic, but the fact that the object can rotate freely.

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[jgraham]

Slight tweak... while the scope is moving in this pattern the sky is rotating.

The devil is always in the details.

All the easy stuff has been done. 😀

[GSBass]

Dwarf labs may be the first scope to test these patents… although it’s still unclear what the d3 will do, it does appear to be similar with overlaps being performed as the subs come in…. Guess we will see how that plays out… it might work out better for Vaonis to license it instead of fight it assuming the other robot makers are willing to play fair and pay

[Psion]

Mosaics cannot be patented, only the method of stitching, which can be modified in various ways. Without rotating the object in the field of view it will be a half solution.

[tarbat]

Mosaics cannot be patented, only the method of stitching, which can be modified in various ways. Without rotating the object in the field of view it will be a half solution.

The Dwarf 3 mosaic format looks interesting.  If DwarfLabs have found a way to eliminate any background gradients from the sub-exposures before stitching, their method might even be better than the Vaonis method.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=3IiuD65Qvk0

[Psion]

It looks very nice (processed in the Phone). 

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[Psion]

It will be a very interesting instrument, extremely compact, with an excellent sensor, and a large field of view for large nebulae. 

[AGrayson]

It will be a very interesting instrument, extremely compact, with an excellent sensor, and a large field of view for large nebulae.

Indeed, I don't think I'll ever own one myself, but I'm excited to see some wide field shots with it. Especially the MW core

Edited by AGrayson, 20 July 2024 - 06:25 AM.

[webmartians]

Having just bought an S50, I'm of two minds about a successor.

 

So far, my only complaint is that I live in a high Bortle area: the S50 sometimes can't find even Altair. Thus portability is key: I have to be able to easily shlep the critter on holiday to someplace where the night sky is black (or at least dark grey).

 

Oh ... one other suggestion for the S80 ... make it in some kind of lighter color than invisible-in-the-dark and easily-tripped-over black (maybe some kind of outdoor rugged yellow or survivalist green, but not easy-to-scuff white).

 

If it is (even nearly) as portable as the S50, I guess I'd be "in."

[GSBass]

It would be interesting to know if they are even working on a successor… so far it still just seems to be speculation, there was a rumor presented as factual on fb about an s30 but that seems to be false also

Having just bought an S50, I'm of two minds about a successor.

 

So far, my only complaint is that I live in a high Bortle area: the S50 sometimes can't find even Altair. Thus portability is key: I have to be able to easily shlep the critter on holiday to someplace where the night sky is black (or at least dark grey).

 

Oh ... one other suggestion for the S80 ... make it in some kind of lighter color than invisible-in-the-dark and easily-tripped-over black (maybe some kind of outdoor rugged yellow or survivalist green, but not easy-to-scuff white).

 

If it is (even nearly) as portable as the S50, I guess I'd be "in."

[kutibah1]

I was holding out, but I think I am going to bite and buy one with the 10% discount going on right now. There will always be something newer and better that comes out with any technology, but waiting has a cost, and I want to begin having fun now To me, it doesn't seem like they are eager to announce a new model, and to be honest, given the sales, I don't blame them! There's no rush to release an annual refresh in this space as there is with phones...

[jprideaux]

A telescope “in hand” is always better than a telescope “in theory”. Of course people WANT ZWO to come out with an extremely low-cost larger robotic scope but that may never happen for two reasons.

1. The same set of design compromises ZWO was able to do to keep the cost down for a 50mm scope may not be possible for an 80mm scope. That is, it may be possible for them to make a 80mm robotic scope, but the price may need to be “up there”.

2. Even if they could make a surprisingly inexpensive 80mm scope, if it were any good, it would eat into sales of the rest of the things they already sell. They may not do it just for that reason.

Of course I am hopeful they do come out with a really inexpensive 80mm robotic scope. I would just not recommend delaying getting into the hobby waiting on them to do so.

They already sell the parts for people to build their own larger systems. Perhaps they will just start to offer “kit bundles” of their existing product line for people that don’t want to try to figure out all the parts needed to put together a full integrated system.

[eyeoftexas]

A telescope “in hand” is always better than a telescope “in theory”. 

So true. 

[GSBass]

Agree, but for anyone that thinks an upgraded Seestar is more imminent, it may be a good option to pick up a dwarf 3, that should keep you busy for a while and there will be less overlap in capabilities when the new Seestar is released. The dwarf 3 is currently scheduled to ship in September 

A telescope “in hand” is always better than a telescope “in theory”. Of course people WANT ZWO to come out with an extremely low-cost larger robotic scope but that may never happen for two reasons.

1. The same set of design compromises ZWO was able to do to keep the cost down for a 50mm scope may not be possible for an 80mm scope. That is, it may be possible for them to make a 80mm robotic scope, but the price may need to be “up there”.

2. Even if they could make a surprisingly inexpensive 80mm scope, if it were any good, it would eat into sales of the rest of the things they already sell. They may not do it just for that reason.

Of course I am hopeful they do come out with a really inexpensive 80mm robotic scope. I would just not recommend delaying getting into the hobby waiting on them to do so.

They already sell the parts for people to build their own larger systems. Perhaps they will just start to offer “kit bundles” of their existing product line for people that don’t want to try to figure out all the parts needed to put together a full integrated system.

[LDW47]

A telescope “in hand” is always better than a telescope “in theory”. Of course people WANT ZWO to come out with an extremely low-cost larger robotic scope but that may never happen for two reasons.

1. The same set of design compromises ZWO was able to do to keep the cost down for a 50mm scope may not be possible for an 80mm scope. That is, it may be possible for them to make a 80mm robotic scope, but the price may need to be “up there”.

2. Even if they could make a surprisingly inexpensive 80mm scope, if it were any good, it would eat into sales of the rest of the things they already sell. They may not do it just for that reason.

Of course I am hopeful they do come out with a really inexpensive 80mm robotic scope. I would just not recommend delaying getting into the hobby waiting on them to do so.

They already sell the parts for people to build their own larger systems. Perhaps they will just start to offer “kit bundles” of their existing product line for people that don’t want to try to figure out all the parts needed to put together a full integrated system.

I agree 110%, no one should hold their breath, lol.  Many don't seem to know how it works, it is surprising, maybe unbelievable !

[Terra Nova]

Ran a fully kitted out Atari 800 from 1983 till Windows 3.1 came out in 92. Not only should you enjoy each day, but you should extract every last ounce of value from a thing till its generational leap replacement appears. Wake me up when the Seestar S 5000 appears ...

You all are making me wish I still had my Amiga! Now there was one cool machine!

Edited by Terra Nova, 03 August 2024 - 11:11 AM.

[Terra Nova]

I'm not sure there is much to be gained in increasing the aperture of the S50. 50mm is plenty for beginner-to-intermediate APO. The biggest advancement will be a larger, higher resolution sensor. That will be the bees knees - higher res and wider field in an equally compact and convenient shell. Why double the physical size when you can achieve the same thing with tech improvements? Personally I'd much rather have a better sensor in my bread-loaf sized SeeStar S50, than a bread-box sized S80.

Note that PCs and laptops haven't gotten larger. They are actually smaller, with vastly superior technology.

I think the biggest practical improvement while still preserving the fit and philosophy of SeeStar 50 would be a 60mm F6 triplet. Then you could get some nice planetary shots without too much of an increase in the size of the unit. Think a TV60, which isn’t even a triplet, it’s a doublet with great optics.

Edited by Terra Nova, 02 August 2024 - 12:53 PM.

[Phil Perry]

I'd love to see an 80 or 90mm Seestar! Just please, please, please add a field derotator.

 

Regarding patents on mosaicking, I'm afraid that you can patent anything. Not only are there numerous US patents on perpetual motion machines, but there is a patent that claims to cover all of ecommerce. I hear that the owner is busy shaking down smaller online vendors. The USPTO will issue a patent on anything that hasn't been patented or described before, and leave it to the courts to decide what's valid and what claims are excessively broad.

[Susan H]

I’m a true novice when it comes to things like this. Why can’t ZWO just increase the capability of the sensor? It’s rectangular right? Why can’t they make it more square as mentioned before? Would doing that give it a larger FOV? That said, I’m getting one at the end of September. 

[chrisecurtis]

I’m a true novice when it comes to things like this. Why can’t ZWO just increase the capability of the sensor? It’s rectangular right? Why can’t they make it more square as mentioned before? Would doing that give it a larger FOV? That said, I’m getting one at the end of September. 

I'd guess that the sensor, optics, mount and software were developed together, aiming at the $500 price. 

 

A square and larger sensor would give a larger field of view, but it might be that the edges of the larger field have more problems optically: aberrations tend to be more prominent the further away you are from the optical axis. The Vespera 2 and Pro with larger sensors have additional optics (quad lenses and field correctors) to help deal with these issues and a Seestar with a larger sensor might need that too. I suspect that a better sensor might show up the limitations of the main optics too: the Seestar optics was designed precisely for the sensor resolution and sensitivity and a new sensor might mean they would have to make changes to the optics. The mount would probably be OK but software would have to be re-written - larger images would need more memory and take more time to process but might also be harder to align when stacking and you'd need to refine the algorithms for pointing, tracking and for rejecting bad frames.

It's all possible, of course, but at a price.

[pairofdocs]

Saying the USPTO will patent anything is nonsense  . I have five issued patents and the hoops I had to jump through to prove the patent material was unique and did what the patent claimed to do was insane. Maybe in the early 1800’s perpetual motion machines could be patented, but not today. You’d have to prove that it was to the patent examiner and you can’t 

[PBKMS]

My 2 cents for anyone "holding out" getting the Seestar, don't...  It's an absolute blast.  I have been able to image more in the 2 weeks I've had the Seestar than I have over the past several years due to time limitations / equipment / weather (always planning for the cooler / clear nights / etc...).  I live in a Bortle 7 area and with hot summer night conditions, slight wind disturbing the scope, I have been able to capture these images.  Once the sun goes down, I set the Seestar up, attach a battery pack, select the target, shoot, go about my night.  I can capture 4 to 5 targets a night.

 

Album: SeeStar S50

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