248 replies to this topic

[George N]

Forgive my ignorance but is there substantial tension between imagers and observers? From what I've heard if someone is causing a nuisance with light, someone in the vicinity will definitely have a word with them. The increasing popularity of imaging is just a sign of the times. As imaging becomes more automated, imagers now have enough time on their hands to turn back to enjoying visual. At the star party what I saw was plenty of people having a good time.

There is not *substantial* tension - and there should be none at all. << I do both at Cherry Springs at times - but I try to limit my imaging efforts to non-star party mid-week nights where there are maybe a dozen people, and we can spread out >>

 

In the minor annoyance category - all red LEDs associated with 'automated' astro gear in general. A few years ago at BFSP a well-known social-media astro guru and his acolytes had at least 6 imaging rigs set up just South of me and my little C-9.25 I was using visually. In fairness - they were following all the rules - no bright head lights, open screens, or bright windows in their RV's -- but still, my wide-field Milky Way shots show a 'sea' of red LEDs and several friends noted the 'display'. I wish astro gear makers would use dimmer LEDs on mounts, cameras, etc - or even add an ability to turn them off. Still mostly a minor issue.

 

There were days when groups of imagers would surround "their area" with LED ropes or LEDs on little poles - implying "stay out". I walked thru anyway.....

 

My single worst experience - someone had left a laptop on the ground - controlling an imaging rig - screen blanked out but uncovered. A little light, but not a real problem - until Widows crashed and - I had a bright blue screen of death pointed right at me from 20 yards away. The owner didn't show up to fix it for at least an hour or two.

 

By far my worst experiences at Cherry Springs are from people flashing their vehicle lights - or even worse, the crazy folks who try to drive off the field in the middle of the night - headlights on. Last year a guy crashed his truck into a pole trying to drive out the pedestrian path next to the closed gate - resulting in the police showing up - then a tow truck - all with whites and flashies on. Sorry but - the State Police said they had to do it.

 

I've been there with major med emergencies requiring white lights - I fully understand that and have no problem - it comes with being around 'people' - and it could be *me* with a broken neck or heart attack at some point.

Edited by George N, 29 June 2024 - 01:07 PM.

[George N]

Hi John,

 

I've thought about this as well...

 

When speaking about AI, at least for today, we're talking about Large Language Models - that is the its ability to achieve general-purpose language generation from the huge data trove that is the Internet and doing in a super-fast manner. .......

 

I am not sure how that translates in imaging workflows.   As you mentioned, image processing is one area, but I think it all depends upon how the Adobe and others leverage the technology and integrate it into their products.  The downside is that for AI to work well, new PC/laptop hardware is needed.  In my mind, this slows the adoption in a hobby where occasionally, the participants can be reluctant to spend money.   

 

.......

I'm not sure "AI" is the proper term to describe the software run on the Celestron Origin (https://www.celestro...ome-observatory) - but it supposedly uses an AI training technique to perform stacking (with both alt/az and equatorial modes), noise reduction, sharping, light pollution removal, etc. The Origin also has a port for thumb drive or PC to down-load raw flats, darks, image files, etc - for off-line processing. However, the president of Celestron said in a presentation at NEAF this year that "within 2 to 5 years our software will do better at image processing than any 'PixInsight Master' can and we do it immediately. In fact, I think our AI software in the Origin can process faster and better than any human can with PixInsight right now!" He later agreed to a contest of sorts - the Celestron AI software built into the Origin vs what a well-known PixInsight book author could do with the raw files. I never have found if they did the shoot-out. But - with the rate at which AI is advancing - I'm thinking it is all probably true - and the Celestron Origin is just the first of many products that will be out there soon.

 

Oh, the prez of Celestron also said "the most difficult part of this 6 year project was not the optics and hardware - it was developing the AI image processing software!"

Edited by George N, 29 June 2024 - 01:32 PM.

[George N]

Glad I'm not at Cherry Springs right now - NWS just issued a "tornado watch" until 8 PM today -- June 29, 2024

[bunyon]

There is not *substantial* tension - and there should be none at all. << I do both at Cherry Springs at times - but I try to limit my imaging efforts to non-star party mid-week nights where there are maybe a dozen people, and we can spread out >>

 

In the minor annoyance category - all red LEDs associated with 'automated' astro gear in general. A few years ago at BFSP a well-known social-media astro guru and his acolytes had at least 6 imaging rigs set up just South of me and my little C-9.25 I was using visually. In fairness - they were following all the rules - no bright head lights, open screens, or bright windows in their RV's -- but still, my wide-field Milky Way shots show a 'sea' of red LEDs and several friends noted the 'display'. I wish astro gear makers would use dimmer LEDs on mounts, cameras, etc - or even add an ability to turn them off. Still mostly a minor issue.

 

There were days when groups of imagers would surround "their area" with LED ropes or LEDs on little poles - implying "stay out". I walked thru anyway.....

 

My single worst experience - someone had left a laptop on the ground - controlling an imaging rig - screen blanked out but uncovered. A little light, but not a real problem - until Widows crashed and - I had a bright blue screen of death pointed right at me from 20 yards away. The owner didn't show up to fix it for at least an hour or two.

 

By far my worst experiences at Cherry Springs are from people flashing their vehicle lights - or even worse, the crazy folks who try to drive off the field in the middle of the night - headlights on. Last year a guy crashed his truck into a pole trying to drive out the pedestrian path next to the closed gate - resulting in the police showing up - then a tow truck - all with whites and flashies on. Sorry but - the State Police said they had to do it.

 

I've been there with major med emergencies requiring white lights - I fully understand that and have no problem - it comes with being around 'people' - and it could be *me* with a broken neck or heart attack at some point.

 

Two points caught my attention: Seems to me star parties should have rules that unattended lights can be extinguished by anyone. If I had a blue screen of death facing me at a dark site, it would be closed or face down very quickly. 

 

And I wouldn't object to the police clearing a crashed car using lights. That's a hard job and they need to see. I would want the driver to be permanently banned from the park. 

[Ac2aj]

I definitely don't think unattended lights should be able to be extinguished by anyone. If I ran to the bathroom to come back to find someone in my truck or tent because I accidentally left a light on they would have more to worry about than a light being on. I'm saying that in a nice way.

Edited by Ac2aj, 30 June 2024 - 01:52 AM.

[George9]

I've not seen Kevin at CSSP (or Stellafane) in a number of years. He did ask me over to his farm during the pandemic to do some viewing - but I didn't go. He preferred to use his 18" and 22" unobstructed Chief's versus the 36-inch. Last I heard, he was building a 2nd 36 - and had two more glass blanks.

 

I always liked setting up right next to Kevin (but not helping him get that beast in/out of his Silverado - that he had to leave the tail gate open to fit the truss poles!). People would always line up at Kevin's 36 and leave me and my little 20-incher alone! RyanG, owner of New Moon always had his personal 20" F/3.3 in the same area - but he's too busy building Dobs today to go to star parties.

 

I remember the night that Al Nagler had his NV device on Kevin's 36 - aimed at M-16. Al was literally jumping up and down in excitement. He later put in writing what he said that night "The best view I've ever had thru a telescope!"

Yes, I have not seen Kevin in a while. One night he let me run his 32" for the crowd for an hour or two. It was so much fun. Thank you to him.

 

He used to post here, but I forget the handle. I hope all is well.

 

George

[bunyon]

I definitely don't think unattended lights should be able to be extinguished by anyone. If I ran to the bathroom to come back to find someone in my truck or tent because I accidentally left a light on they would have more to worry about than a light being on. I'm saying that in a nice way.

Yes, very nice. You get to disrupt my night and if I try to remedy it, you threaten me. Sure hope I share a field with you someday.

If you’re at a star party with rules against white lights or overly lit setups and you leave it unattended, I don’t know why you’d expect everyone should just leave it be. I would hope that if I accidentally left a light that bothered someone and I wasn’t around, someone would do me a favor and turn it off.

The default at a star party should be dark, not light.

[Ac2aj]

With the amount of high end expensive equipment people bring to star parties I would think anyone coming back to their site to find someone in their vehicle or tent/camper would have an issue. Not everyone is from a small nice peaceful town where everyone is trusting and friendly. I'm from New York. Of all the years I've been to star parties I've never had a light on so I'm not concerned. I also lock up my vehicle which contains all of my expensive equipment as well minus my set up Apo so I'm not concerned with that either. I was just saying a hypothetical.

[Menefist]

The number one problem I've found at Cherry Spring in terms of light issues was due to vehicles not being adequately prepared for the event.

Alarms will go off, door open with dome lights ON, orange lights, blinkers going OFF.

I take this event seriously and I demand that everyone does the same. My car is completely modified with red LED bulbs, all my lights are RED. And if one little light is not, I tape some RED film over it.

When I had a car that I couldn't modify to this extent I simply disconnected my battery overnight. Some people say: " I am NOT going to disconnect my battery , bha bha bha " and then their alarm goes off because someone bumped into their car at 11 PM , while they  felt asleep in their trailer because they are 70 years old doing imaging and they don't care. They wake up and it takes them 10 minutes to walk out of the camper and try to find their keys. And the day after they just stroll around like nothing happened.

PLEASE, you know how serious we get at this event, BE SERIOUS!

I've personally walked to people sites in the middle of the night with red film and tape and made them tape their lights. I am tired of this.
COME PREPARED, disconnect your battery, screen your lights. 

Just because you are old and retired doesn't mean you shouldn't care about other people experience. ( young people do this also but statistic is on their side )

I think the anxiety and PTSD ( about using only red lights ) i have brought upon my family and close friends who attended the event over the years with me, has done nothing but helping preserve the experience for all. They all now understand the point and know how cool they are by being prepared rather than slacking.

 

Thank you :-)

[Skywatchr]

I definitely don't think unattended lights should be able to be extinguished by anyone. If I ran to the bathroom to come back to find someone in my truck or tent because I accidentally left a light on they would have more to worry about than a light being on. I'm saying that in a nice way.

I'm saying this in a nice way too. Don't be lazy and ignorant to walk away leaving lights on.  Thank you.

[Ac2aj]

I'm saying this in a nice way too. Don't be lazy and ignorant to walk away leaving lights on. Thank you.

It's never happened in all the years I've gone!

[Tsb1948]

Be there tomorrow on the motorcycle. Hope for clear skies.

[Chucky]

<<  The bid dob (> 20") is now mostly gone.  >>

 

So where did they all go?  They have to be somewhere.

[impreza276]

My car is completely modified with red LED bulbs, all my lights are RED. And if one little light is not, I tape some RED film over it.

When I had a car that I couldn't modify to this extent I simply disconnected my battery overnight.

Sigh, the good old days when cars had bulbs. My car is semi electric so disconnecting the battery is a bit of a challenge. Yes I know there is a traditional 12V battery in it but things start to go very wrong when that is disconnected for any length of time.

[Ac2aj]

We have always just use red cellophane over any lights in the car. There really is no reason to change bulbs to red LED. It worked like that for years. Also, 100% correct on the battery I would never disconnect my battery not everybody who goes to star parties, takes it as serious as others, it's a price you pay for being a public event. I think if you are that serious and have the demand, it may be a better idea to go there when it's not a star party and you'll have to field to yourself

[bunyon]

That’s a screen shot of the star party rules for 2024. Looks like the organizers take the dark plenty seriously. I would say that if someone wants to be casual with dark sky etiquette they are the ones who should not come. 
 

I’ve been to star parties with hundreds of people and no white lights or bright red lights. If any such light did appear, the perpetrators would be shouted down from all corners of the field. At some point, a notable minority became convinced that star party rules didn’t apply to them. I’m not sure when that happened. 

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[Menefist]

Sigh, the good old days when cars had bulbs. My car is semi electric so disconnecting the battery is a bit of a challenge. Yes I know there is a traditional 12V battery in it but things start to go very wrong when that is disconnected for any length of time.

I understand the difficulty there, In that case just tape those lights or cover them with some heavy rugs or blankets. Buy some floor protection paper also that can be good to cover larger surfaces. Home Depot has plenty or materials that would do the job. In other words just be prepared.

[Menefist]

We have always just use red cellophane over any lights in the car. There really is no reason to change bulbs to red LED. It worked like that for years. Also, 100% correct on the battery I would never disconnect my battery not everybody who goes to star parties, takes it as serious as others, it's a price you pay for being a public event. I think if you are that serious and have the demand, it may be a better idea to go there when it's not a star party and you'll have to field to yourself

I pay for an event that has strict rules about many things. I do expect those rules to be observed by all as we all are "signing" that contract when deciding to attend.

All white light must be shielded / nor present.
Where there's a will, there's a way.

So yes, I demand all to respect that rule.

 

[impreza276]

I understand the difficulty there, In that case just tape those lights or cover them with some heavy rugs or blankets. Buy some floor protection paper also that can be good to cover larger surfaces. Home Depot has plenty or materials that would do the job. In other words just be prepared.

That is well understood. I was just commenting on bulbs and batteries.

[Ac2aj]

Red tail light tape works well too. Sometimes you have to double it up depending on the light.

[lwbehney]

I'm not sure "AI" is the proper term to describe the software run on the Celestron Origin (https://www.celestro...ome-observatory) - but it supposedly uses an AI training technique to perform stacking (with both alt/az and equatorial modes), noise reduction, sharping, light pollution removal, etc. The Origin also has a port for thumb drive or PC to down-load raw flats, darks, image files, etc - for off-line processing. However, the president of Celestron said in a presentation at NEAF this year that "within 2 to 5 years our software will do better at image processing than any 'PixInsight Master' can and we do it immediately. In fact, I think our AI software in the Origin can process faster and better than any human can with PixInsight right now!" He later agreed to a contest of sorts - the Celestron AI software built into the Origin vs what a well-known PixInsight book author could do with the raw files. I never have found if they did the shoot-out. But - with the rate at which AI is advancing - I'm thinking it is all probably true - and the Celestron Origin is just the first of many products that will be out there soon.

 

Oh, the prez of Celestron also said "the most difficult part of this 6 year project was not the optics and hardware - it was developing the AI image processing software!"

I am thinking that the AI would not have to do everything; just the more nuanced judgement calls for aesthetics. A very large series of algorithms would be very easy for any computer program to chunk through rapidly. - If this: Then that; Do this first: Do this secondly; Measure the intensities: Then follow these steps in order, etc. The only work the human operator needs to do is to assemble the equipment properly and answer the questions the program has, such as focal length, type of telescope, Reducer, Flattener, Filter Wheel, etc.etc. In other words, it is always the “big picture” that the computer fails at. 

Presumably, AI can be taught aesthetics. The power of AI is already manifesting itself in interpreting subtle findings; it can read Mammograms with less error than radiologists. AI should be trainable in the ability to eke out any pattern available to be seen in an image and then can use the processing tools to enhance the patterns it finds. 

[Tsb1948]

A little off topic, but how may enjoyed clear skies at Cherry Springs this week ?  I saw some great stars Tuesday night.

[John O'Hara]

This is a little OT, so I've started a new thread in the Light Pollution Forum about a possible new dark sky location near Cherry Springs.  See here:

 

https://www.cloudyni...-dark-sky-site/

[Skywatchr]

I was not able to make CSSP this year.

 

I do plan to be at BFSP this year with the 32" F/4 and Night Vision.

 

Quick pix. of the 32" and snapshot of M17 with NV, and yes, that is how M17 appears visually with NV.

 

Look forward to seeing Paul, all the regulars and newcomers at the Star party!

Oh, I forgot to mention, please feel free to stop by for some views, not as much

fun if you can't share the experience!

 

CS,

John

I hope you make it John!  The last time I had a chance to look through your scope, was when Al Nagler brought the little table top 4" Dob.  That little thing was very impressive and was razor sharp.

Of course this is pending getting tickets to begin with.